1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Everything about latency. Tips, testing methods, mouse lag, display lag, game engine lag, network lag, whole input lag chain, VSYNC OFF vs VSYNC ON, and more! Input Lag Articles on Blur Busters.
daviddave1
Posts: 382
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 17:43

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by daviddave1 » 01 Dec 2021, 12:28

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
30 Nov 2021, 18:19
Game developers need to have 3 separate sensitivity settings in their games:

- Menu sensitivity
- Movement sensitivity
- Sniper scope sensivity

Some games already have this but not enough games.
Please complain to your favourite game developer and link to this thread.

We need menus that behave like 400-800dpi but 3200dpi-lowsens in turns/aiming.

Also I want to tell game developers about High Definition Mouse API

Game developers need to realize that 1000Hz is no longer enough.
A recent research paper proved this, too.

Image

Image

You can choose 2000Hz to get 90% of the benefits of 8000Hz without the CPU hogging behaviours of 8000Hz, but I do personally still see further improvement from 4000Hz and 8000Hz (much harder unless you use strobing or extreme refresh rates like 390Hz).

Games perform with least stutters with 2000Hz+, high DPI, and low-sensitivity. But the problem is high DPI means fast mouse pointers unless you have a separate sensitivity adjustment for mouse pointer than for game turns. Game performance goes up at 3200dpi in Overwatch/Valorant but the menus are too fast, so need a separate sensitivity adjustment.

3200dpi at 1/8th sensitivity is the same mouse pointer speed as 400dpi.
2000 pollingrate with 1600 dpi feels amazing its way less jittery then with 8000 pollingrate. ty. think im gonna play with this.
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

woland
Posts: 27
Joined: 06 Aug 2020, 16:38

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by woland » 01 Dec 2021, 12:47

I'll describe what I do for apex:
I prefer having my 1x zoom sensitivity match the sensitivity with which I do all precise actions, like managing inventory, dropping/picking up armor, etc. However, when it comes to inventory Apex ignores in-game sensitivity and simply defaults to Windows' sensitivity. There are two ways to resolve this: first, you can set your apex in-game sensitivity to 1.25. The second I will describe below. It has the benefit of letting you use nearly any sensitivity, as well as using high DPI, which has the advantage of slightly lower input lag and smoother movement.

Inventory management ignores Apex's in-game sensitivity setting, so we're going to use pointer speed instead. In Apex your 1x sens is 80% of your in-game sens. We're going to use the first row (EFF off) of this chart of multipliers:
https://linustechtips.com/uploads/month ... f70545.png
You need the following to be equivalent.
0.8 * in-game sens = multiplier
So, for example:
3850 DPI, 0.31 in-game sens, 3rd tick (0.25 multiplier):
0.8 * 0.31 = 0.248 which is close enough to the multiplier of 0.25.

Since the multipliers are fixed you may have to play with your DPI to in-game sens ratio. For example, initially I used 1200 DPI and 1 sens, which is almost the same since 3850 * 0.31 = 1193.5. Currently I use 1600 dpi, 0.61 sens, 4/11 pointer speed.

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 01 Dec 2021, 15:42

daviddave1 wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 12:28
2000 pollingrate with 1600 dpi feels amazing its way less jittery then with 8000 pollingrate. ty. think im gonna play with this.
Theoretically 8000 should feel better, but just like 1000Hz in year 2006 (15 years ago), it can hog a lot of CPU. It will take time before systems truly keep up with full 8000 Hz (some of them do, but not all).

So that's why 2000 Hz only uses 1/4th the amount of mouse driver CPU, with ~90% the benefits of 8000Hz.

The reduced CPU use of 2000 Hz makes it less jittery if your game/CPU/etc can't handle 4000 or 8000 easily.

It's still WORTH buying the Razer Viper 8KHz, just to run it at 2000Hz. Still a big upgrade for today's 240Hz+ era. And the recent research definitely shows 1000Hz is no longer enough. Damn beautiful mousefeel!
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

daviddave1
Posts: 382
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 17:43

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by daviddave1 » 05 Dec 2021, 15:34

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 15:42
daviddave1 wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 12:28
2000 pollingrate with 1600 dpi feels amazing its way less jittery then with 8000 pollingrate. ty. think im gonna play with this.
Theoretically 8000 should feel better, but just like 1000Hz in year 2006 (15 years ago), it can hog a lot of CPU. It will take time before systems truly keep up with full 8000 Hz (some of them do, but not all).

So that's why 2000 Hz only uses 1/4th the amount of mouse driver CPU, with ~90% the benefits of 8000Hz.

The reduced CPU use of 2000 Hz makes it less jittery if your game/CPU/etc can't handle 4000 or 8000 easily.

It's still WORTH buying the Razer Viper 8KHz, just to run it at 2000Hz. Still a big upgrade for today's 240Hz+ era. And the recent research definitely shows 1000Hz is no longer enough. Damn beautiful mousefeel!
I connected my Razer Huntsman Tournaments 1000hz keyboard to the same USB port as my Razer Viper 8K on my Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS D4 Z690 motherboard. Could this be the cause that the 2000hz polling rate is less jerky then 8000hz pollingrate on my Viper 8k mouse? I am not home right now else i tested it.
The only USB devices connected to my Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS D4 Z690 motherboard are the Razer Huntsman Tournaments keyboard, the Razer Viper 8K mouse and my USB DAC Fiio E10k soundcard. If i put my 8k mouse on the blue usb hub on the higher side on the back of my pc and the 1K keyboard and USB soundcard on the lower hub ( I will check this by connections on system devices in the Control Panel) can i be sure this is the best setup to lower any distortion? What is the best way to test this? Can I lower the risk of any distorion with just buying a PCIe USB card? If so whats a good one? What devices do i connect to the the PCIe USB card? I hope to hear from u Chief!
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 05 Dec 2021, 19:58

daviddave1 wrote:
05 Dec 2021, 15:34
If i put my 8k mouse on the blue usb hub on the higher side on the back of my pc and the 1K keyboard and USB soundcard on the lower hub ( I will check this by connections on system devices in the Control Panel) can i be sure this is the best setup to lower any distortion? What is the best way to test this? Can I lower the risk of any distorion with just buying a PCIe USB card? If so whats a good one? What devices do i connect to the the PCIe USB card? I hope to hear from u Chief!
Yes, a PCIe USB card helps Razer 8KHz.

As a general rule of thumb, you only want one high-Hz USB device per USB chip (hub). Look in Device Manager and make sure each root hub only contains one high-pollrate device without any thing else high-usage on it (like external disk drives containing frequently accessed data).

It could be your mouse on motherboard USB chip and other USB devices on PCIe USB chip.
...Or it could be your mouse on PCIe USB chip and other USB devices on motherboard USB chip.

Try it both ways and see how your mouse feels. You can use a mouse checking utility to see how much your pollrate jitters around (especially when some 3D graphics and disk accesses / etc are running at the same time in a different window) -- try to slam your CPU/GPU usage higher while measuring your mouse jitter, so if you're using a mouse tester utility, run some 3D benchmark in a 2nd window at the same time (or a windowed game). This will result in the most accurate pollrate jitter measurements.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

daviddave1
Posts: 382
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 17:43

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by daviddave1 » 06 Dec 2021, 01:58

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
05 Dec 2021, 19:58
daviddave1 wrote:
05 Dec 2021, 15:34
If i put my 8k mouse on the blue usb hub on the higher side on the back of my pc and the 1K keyboard and USB soundcard on the lower hub ( I will check this by connections on system devices in the Control Panel) can i be sure this is the best setup to lower any distortion? What is the best way to test this? Can I lower the risk of any distorion with just buying a PCIe USB card? If so whats a good one? What devices do i connect to the the PCIe USB card? I hope to hear from u Chief!
Yes, a PCIe USB card helps Razer 8KHz.

As a general rule of thumb, you only want one high-Hz USB device per USB chip (hub). Look in Device Manager and make sure each root hub only contains one high-pollrate device without any thing else high-usage on it (like external disk drives containing frequently accessed data).

It could be your mouse on motherboard USB chip and other USB devices on PCIe USB chip.
...Or it could be your mouse on PCIe USB chip and other USB devices on motherboard USB chip.

Try it both ways and see how your mouse feels. You can use a mouse checking utility to see how much your pollrate jitters around (especially when some 3D graphics and disk accesses / etc are running at the same time in a different window) -- try to slam your CPU/GPU usage higher while measuring your mouse jitter, so if you're using a mouse tester utility, run some 3D benchmark in a 2nd window at the same time (or a windowed game). This will result in the most accurate pollrate jitter measurements.
Thank you Chief! Last question: Do you recommend a certain pcie USB card? Is there a special chipset brand to avoid or to keep a eye on? Is it USB 3.1?
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 06 Dec 2021, 02:22

daviddave1 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 01:58
Thank you Chief! Last question: Do you recommend a certain pcie USB card? Is there a special chipset brand to avoid or to keep a eye on? Is it USB 3.1?
It's hard to say -- there is somewhat of a motherboard-dependent lottery effect, as PCIe implementations vary a lot and some are meh, number of cards, quality of motherboard, whether PCIe lanes go direct to CPU or thru chipset, etc. Latencies may be lower or higher (but they're still essentially microseconds league, lesser of evil versus nasty mouse jitter)

There are other factors like how directly the PCIe lane gets to your CPU. The Razer 8KHz's own dedicated carpool lane straight to the CPU...

I'd just say buy a good recent inexpensive 4-port PCIe USB card with a high Amazon rating, and be done with it. One high-Hz device connected to those (other ports unused), will almost always be superior to crummy overloaded motherboard USB ports running on lowest common denominator shared USB implementations...

Just one dedicated PCIe lane is enough. There are latencies (DPC, etc) involved having to go down PCIe lanes that sometimes have to shortcut through a motherboard chipset, but can be much less than the latencies of a congested motherboard USB chip. The jitter graphs are much cleaner, and that's important during gaming!
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

daviddave1
Posts: 382
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 17:43

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by daviddave1 » 06 Dec 2021, 09:07

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 02:22
daviddave1 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 01:58
Thank you Chief! Last question: Do you recommend a certain pcie USB card? Is there a special chipset brand to avoid or to keep a eye on? Is it USB 3.1?
It's hard to say -- there is somewhat of a motherboard-dependent lottery effect, as PCIe implementations vary a lot and some are meh, number of cards, quality of motherboard, whether PCIe lanes go direct to CPU or thru chipset, etc. Latencies may be lower or higher (but they're still essentially microseconds league, lesser of evil versus nasty mouse jitter).

There are other factors like how directly the PCIe lane gets to your CPU. The Razer 8KHz's own dedicated carpool lane straight to the CPU...

I'd just say buy a good recent inexpensive 4-port PCIe USB card with a high Amazon rating, and be done with it. One high-Hz device connected to those (other ports unused), will almost always be superior to crummy overloaded motherboard USB ports running on lowest common denominator shared USB implementations...

Just one dedicated PCIe lane is enough. There are latencies (DPC, etc) involved having to go down PCIe lanes that sometimes have to shortcut through a motherboard chipset, but can be much less than the latencies of a congested motherboard USB chip. The jitter graphs are much cleaner, and that's important during gaming!
Tnx Chief! Much appreciated! I ended up buying the https://www.amazon.com/Inateck-Bandwidt ... YHWFD?th=1 It should arrive in 2 days here in Holland. ( on the amazon.nl site its not sold out) the card should support 3.2 Gen2.


The first setup will be my Razer Viper 8K mouse on the new PCIe USB RedComets U21 card ( on the lowest port near the ASM3142 chip.) Saw this in the comments on Amazon as recommended))

Then my Razer Huntsman Tournaments 1000hz keyboard on the USB 3.2 Gen2 port of my my Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS D4 Z690 motherboard.

Then my USB DAC Fiio E10k soundcard and my USB footpedal ( push to mute pedal) on the 2 USB 3.2 Gen1 ports of my my Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS D4 Z690 motherboard.


I will also test the Razer Viper 8K mouse on the USB 3.2 Gen2 port of my Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS D4 Z690 motherboard.
The keyboard on the USB 3.2 Gen1 port and my USB DAC Fiio E10k soundcard and my USB footpedal on the new PCIe USB RedComets U21 card. Maybe the USB 3.2 Gen2 on the motherboard is more stable then the new PCIe USB RedComets 3.2 Gen2
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 06 Dec 2021, 12:40

Oh, BTW, also -- those "special" ports on the motherboard indeed often uses a different USB chip, so playing the "USB port roulette" on the back of the motherboard actually makes a big difference. However, it's very crapshoot.

Someone did this and posted massively improved Razer 8KHz jitter graphs:
TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

If you have lots of USB devices, you definitely still want a PCIe USB card to de-congest congested root USB hubs, so you have three separate internal USB root hubs to independently process the traffic -- one for your high-Hz mouse, one for your high-Hz keyboard, and the rest of USB devices separate. And your card you purchased appears to have two separate USB chips, which gives you the convenience of using the same USB card to do two separate high-Hz devices, and/or to lighten your motherboard's USB processing workload.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

daviddave1
Posts: 382
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 17:43

Re: 1600 DPI can't loot in PUBG, Apex etc. menu is to fast.

Post by daviddave1 » 09 Dec 2021, 05:19

double post
Last edited by daviddave1 on 09 Dec 2021, 06:54, edited 4 times in total.
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

Post Reply