Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

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espresso
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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by espresso » 17 Feb 2022, 13:53

blackmagic wrote:
17 Feb 2022, 11:32
all this lagcomp talk is bullshit and has nothing to do with desync, hitreg that players on this forum experience.
LagComp isnt even a Mystery. We know its there and we know what it does just not exactly every detail like how hard it scales.

What is more likely:

1. A System In Place that EVERY Player encounters causes Problems

2.1000s of players with different Hardware, ISPs, Software, Updates, Overclocks, Internetspeeds and Electricalgrids etc.
Experience the VERY SAME Problem caused by some of the above named that most likely NO ONE has in Common.

Pretty much the ONLY thing everyone has in common who experiences "Desync", is playing on Lagcompensated Server.

Are there other factors that can cause laggy games inputlag, sure. But the feeling that you are always 0.5 sec behind the game, that your sprays go no where, that you bullets disappear, despite having good internet and decked out PC, i am very confident to say is the result of LagCompensation
blackmagic wrote:
17 Feb 2022, 11:32
there really many players out there like OP who believe in high ping and lagcomp fairy tales
I am happily awaiting your expertise on what is causing this problem and how exactly it is causing the desync.
Just give a rough explanation.

I can show everyday Examples like this:
https://streamable.com/li4lra

Where your bullets just disappear

or your enemy kills you while still running:
https://streamable.com/cdwt4x

This has nothing to do, with my Internet or my PC, this problem is coming from the Server 100%

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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 17 Feb 2022, 14:00

This may not apply to CS:GO in general but there are thousands of different latency-compensation systems in different netcode in the last twenty years in thousands of networked games that has been released in my lifetime since the early 1990s (NetDOOM).

Most people don’t understand what good latency compensation is for.

Allow me to explain a good metaphor.

A very good “LagComp” engine is always like a very good ultra-tiny Netflix buffer. (A tiny one — like 10 or 20 milliseconds).

Too little lag buffer = erratic latency = hitreg problems
Too much lag buffer = too much latency = awful
Just right lag buffer = consistent latency = less hitreg problem.

That’s why a lot of people like good lag compensation algorithms that behaves like an excellent Netflix buffer or YouTube buffer (except at the 20 millisecond league srather than the 5 second leagues). It keeps the game flowing smoothly rather than lag-jerkily.

We love the superior lag compensation engines when 10 different players have 10 different Internet connections with their different problems. Adding intentional latency is like a shock-absorber for erratic latency and fixes problems.

Not all games, unfortunately, have good lag compensation engines. But it really helps when player A,B,C have vastly different Internet connections of vastly different jitter.

But if all players are all on FTTH and are on a low-latency connection, then lag compensation can be avoided. However, lag compensation can help. I have noticed FTTH users have hitreg problems trying to kill players on DSL connections sometimes when lag compensation is turned off because some games have weird hitreg algorithms. When these FTTH players and DSL connection add intentional latency to “get to the same level” as the DSL connection, to shock-absorb all the erratic packet jitter, into proper internal packetpacing in the netcode, the hitreg problems go away.

The problem occurs because FTTH user A (10ms lag) just began to shoot a DSL player B (50ms lag). But by the time the button is press, FTTH user A (10ms lag) is still same lag, but the DSL user changed lag (60ms lag) because their connection is more erratic latency.

Now 10ms sudden change in lag differential — means 10 pixel mis-offset at 1000 pixels/sec gun slew rate.

The player may have moved 10 pixels further to the left or right, versus the hitbox.

Boom. Hitreg issue, even though you are on a perfect FTTH.

Because 10ms lag-change between you and your enemy is 1% of a second, and 1% of 1000 pixels/sec gun slew rate is 10 pixels offset. Miss instead of hit, if you’re doing rapid snipering (ala AimTrainer style). Barf.

So we turn on *good* lag compensation. Boom. Problem solved.

It’s beautiful when lag compensation works *correctly*. But There’s a lot of bad lag compensation code out there. So lag compensation MAY or MAY NOT be an issue, depending on the game.

Remember, perfect FTTH users *can* have hitreg issues ONLY BECAUSE the other player is on a crappy Internet connection — it’s weird sometimes. That’s often one of the problems that *GOOD* lag compensation code aims to fix.

There’s another factor. The game server too. Now, if the game server load average changes a lot, everybody might suddenly have weirdness. A good lagcomp engine also automatically compensates for server load variances too, to shock-absorb all the lag-differentials (differences between ALL machines including the server itself)

The playing field unfairly unexpectedly tilts because other people don’t have the same Internet as you do.

You can play server roulette and hope you land on a server where everyone has stable Internet connections. As long as you’re stable too, the hitreg often stays beautiful. But as soon as a mix of crappy-variable-latency users join, it’s hitreg weirdness even for the FTTH users. At least in some of the game engines — not all of them. There’s thousands of different netcode engines tying to make weird compromises, all with different (good/crappy) lag compensation stuff. Even CS:GO ten years ago versus five years ago, have different lagcomp feels.

Obviously, this may not be CS:GO since they keep their lagcomp algorithms a secret (to prevent people from figuring out how to cheat/hack/workaround it). It’s an (imperfect) attempt to level the playing field.

But, bottom line, lagcomp is good for fixing FTTH hitreg issues when the OTHER PLAYER is on a lag-jittery connection. There are actually sometimes (in some games) good reason to intentionally to add a very tiny bit of intentional netcode latency to prevent the random hitreg problems from the other player’s packet jitter.

Consistent Latency vs Latency Jitter Lottery (bad hitreg):
You prefer a consistent 20ms latency (0ms jitter) rather than a randomized 5ms-20ms latency (15ms latency randomness = 15 pixels of random pixel offset in hitbox at 1000 pixels/sec gun turn/slew rate, or 60 pixels error at 4000 pixels/sec gun turn/slew rate). Lagcomp can turn a 5-20ms jitter into a 20ms rocksolid. It’s kind of a consistent-latency-emulator upgrade for your variable-latency situation.

It applies regardless if it’s you with the jitter, or if it is the OTHER player with the jitter — it’s why some FTTH users has to occasionally add intentional netcode latency (latency compensation) because of the fault of all the other players’ jittery Internet connections screwing around with your hitbox registration.

When the server reconciles (aka synchronizes) the wildly varying time differentials (caused by packet jitter being different for you and for the other player) — laws of physics dictates guaranteed hitbox registration problems when latency compensation does not exist — it’s unavoidable. The only way to solve this is the netcode’s method of latency compensation.

Disabling latency compensation may improve your performance on perfect servers with perfect connections for everyone. That’s why it feels good on LAN games.. But in some countries, you’re playing a zoo of different latencies and latency jitter. In this case, latency compensation (self adding intentional netcode latency for yourself) becomes mandatory to improve your competitive play.

When esports arenas shut down during the pandemic, everyone had to deal with the latency zoo of the open Internet.

It’s maddening because you upgraded to a perfect FTTH connection, but the other player has a bad Internet connection — and is causing you to fail to frag them, because you shot them and the hitreg didn’t count.

It’s maddening because you don’t know which servers will perform better with latency compensation, and without latency compensation.

And it REALLY screws around with your muscle memory. Your memory of 0ms LAN latency back from your LAN game days, or your memory of open-internet game latency — many people quit gaming because of all the lag weirdnesses and hitreg weirdnesses.

It’s the luck of the lottery — do you KNOW that the other players have zero latency jitter like your very own FTTH connection?

Correct use of lag compensation is how skilled players can perform very well despite having 100ms latency:
  • Player A: FTTH, 10ms lag, without lag-compensation, 1ms wire jitter
  • Player B; Nearby DSL 50ms lag, 20ms wire jitter
  • Player C: Faraway DSL 100ms lag, 30ms wire jitter
Some game servers automatically calibrate server lag to the worst player or average player that has connected. If the in-game latency compensation buffer of lag is 70ms, then Player B can get 0ms in-game jitter despite having 20ms wire jitter, and Player B will usually be able to out-play Player A and Player C, if all A/B/C has exactly same skill. But if server lag compensation buffer expands to 130ms or more, Player C can even sometimes gain a chance to compete equally with A/B/C because everyone is getting 130ms “intentional server latency” — but if the lag compensation buffer shrinks to under 50ms, Player A often has the edge. It’s quite patently weird and sometimes unfair how the playing field tilts. Now, if the algorithm is different, the result may be different. But latency compensation is an (mperfect) attempt to level the playing field.

For simplistic lag compensation algorithms — just pretend good latency compensation is just simply a tiny Netflix buffer to de-jitter the game packets. Then you get the rough idea. But they do all kinds of weirdnesses that don’t scale as linearly.

Battle(non)sense covers a lot of things (same things but in different terminology) as do other YouTubers.

Now that being said, buggy lagcomp can create desync feelings. But one needs to understand why lagcomp exists and how to muck around it, if you need to use it to your own advantage.

Unfortunately, not all lag compensation algorithms in all game engines are that good. CS:GO is both good and bad. Hard to know when it's good / when it's bad. But a smart, educated esports player understand *why* lag compensation exists. You actually literally flunk math class if you do not understand why latency compensation exists. That is why.
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espresso
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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by espresso » 20 Feb 2022, 12:19

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
17 Feb 2022, 14:00
The playing field unfairly unexpectedly tilts because other people don’t have the same Internet as you do.
csgo has a built in Analyse tool for your connection, here are the stats for one of the most lagy games with absolut shit hitreg:
Ping Variance of 0.4ms, and 2 packets dropped of over 130k.
Image


If i play offline, all is perfect, so its not my PC, but as soon as you go online shit hits the fan, but it also is not my connection.
I am pretty sure that this problem is coming from the Server End.

And that is the Gist of my Post here. I tried everything to get that snappy feeling but you only get it very randomly like every 50 game or so.

Unreazz
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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by Unreazz » 20 Feb 2022, 12:57

espresso wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 12:19
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
17 Feb 2022, 14:00
The playing field unfairly unexpectedly tilts because other people don’t have the same Internet as you do.
csgo has a built in Analyse tool for your connection, here are the stats for one of the most lagy games with absolut shit hitreg:
Ping Variance of 0.4ms, and 2 packets dropped of over 130k.
Image


If i play offline, all is perfect, so its not my PC, but as soon as you go online shit hits the fan, but it also is not my connection.
I am pretty sure that this problem is coming from the Server End.

And that is the Gist of my Post here. I tried everything to get that snappy feeling but you only get it very randomly like every 50 game or so.

so guess what ? if its the games fault so why pro players dont suffer from it ? whats the difference ? besides youre hardware and the internet connection ? ohhhh guess what, it has to be the connection on youre side

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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Feb 2022, 15:57

espresso wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 12:19
csgo has a built in Analyse tool for your connection, here are the stats for one of the most lagy games with absolut shit hitreg:
Ping Variance of 0.4ms, and 2 packets dropped of over 130k.
The problem is that not all players have your connection.

Occasionally middle-lag players have less hitreg problems than FTTH users because the FTTH users have hitreg problems on those high-jitter high-lag players, because of how weird and unfair netcode algorithms more successfully filters the hitreg issues of high-lag players for other middle-lag players than the low-lag players.

That's why sometimes adding intentional latency to a FTTH Internet connection (but keeping 0ms jitter), can sometimes reduce hitreg problems when trying to shoot high-lag DSL/cable players.

It's weird how that happens, but it's a workaround for the way netcode sometimes puts zero-jitter zero-lag players at a disadvantage when playing against high-lag high-jitter players. The netcode is very wonky when you have a zoo of different latencies for all the different players on the same server. Battle(non)sense extolls a lot of this too.

P.S. I also talk about VPNs in other threads.
A common way is to VPN to a different part of the world -- to find servers where your in-game CS:GO ping latency is very similar to the other players. Try 3 different VPN software, until you find a VPN that improves your game a lot. There are three goals of VPN here:
- Connect to servers that has players of more stable latencies (servers running on more stable connections)
- Connect to Internet backbones that are more stable (servers running on better Internet backbones)
- Avoiding servers with zoo latencies (huge spreads of hugely different latencies)
- In situations where you're consistently the lowest-lag player on the server (and thus indirectly/accidentally/directly handicapped by the netcode algorithm), adding a VPN can add a slight amount of intentional latency.
- In situations where you're consistently a high-jitter player on the server, adding a VPN can connect you to a lower-jitter Internet backbone by connecting to servers in a more stable part of the world.
- In situations where you're consistently the higher-lag player, playing VPN roulette (trying 3 VPNs) may actually reduce your overall latency, because of VPN forcing a different internet routing on a better backbone.

Your hitreg is bad because other people on the server has bad Internet, and the netcode is often trying to compensate by re-levelling the playing field somewhere in the middle. Assuming perfectly equal skill, the low-to-middle lag players sometimes outperform the lowest-network-lag player because of all the server netcode handicapping effects (some intentional, some unintentional).
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kriegor
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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by kriegor » 08 Mar 2022, 20:55

espresso wrote:
11 Feb 2022, 14:09
In 1.6 i was a god, placed ESL ladder 3 times in a row top 5 out of 20.000, i fucking dominated EU 2v2 AWP ladder, quick scoping longdistance easy. I don't even buy AWP in CSGO because 90% of shots are disappearing into the nirvana.
yeah... you just got old.

mybad
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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by mybad » 17 Mar 2022, 21:30

Hi to all,

First, of all, I wanna know what are we talking about desync or about the lag? because is absolutely two different things.

Second, we must explain to each other what exactly we are meaning when saying "LAG" or "Desync".

I am guaranteed, so many people do not understand clearly what is meant, so many understand in a different way.

This will be a good starting point.

Do you agree?

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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by joseph_from_pilsen » 02 Apr 2022, 00:48

Hello,

i have reaction time 135-145ms at humanbenchmark and i can recognize even the mouse input lag in csgo.

The first guy is FULLY RIGHT, i extremelly suffer from the crap called lagcompensation and i will explain you how it works. Whenever i go against 40+ms i will have guaranteedly a crap game, playing with fiber optics and low ping. I stopped playing faceit because there are no more legit players in EU, only Russlan and turkish crap high ping abusers with free prefire by valve crapcompensation. The situation got unacceptable in 2020, since 2020 there is no chance to get full low ping lobby more often than every 10th game.

Now how it works.

Unfortunatelly, there is no legit way how to remove lagcompensation, its server sided and lagcompensation does ONE thing - it DELAYS the information whenever lagger moves, and delays this information to the all other players. And it does by incredibly stupid way (in valorant they seem to patch it to 35ms hardlimit max, result: all russkies moved to csgo). It does the way that the HIGHER is your ping the LONGER the server delays the information about your movement. What is the result?
The result is simple, you see opponent peeking you with a delay as long as his ping is. Stupid. But its not the worst thing. There is cl_predict 1 parameter which means that your client predicts the LAST known enemy state. The problem is that whenever the opponent peeks you, your client is predicting the old obsolete information for absurd time due to the lagcompensation delay forcing you to aim at totally wrongly rendered target being behind reality for an absurd time of delay.
ANother problem is that if you have FAST REACTIONS, you will automatically miss because you will simply fire before the client gets the info and stops predicting movement. You can try it, if you see a russkie or turk peeking you, notice 2 things:
1) they move but you cant shoot at them because they stop instantly and teleport back (thats because cl_predict 1 predicts movement 100ms after they stopped and the client still moves their texture).
2) they look moving and shooting (because cl_predict 1 predicts obsolete old info from server that they move, but in reality they already stop and aim at your head at server and their client)
3) they are incredibly laggy (because there is no added missing frame correction like in valorant, also there are cheats causing the stuttering by manipulating hidden parameters reducing server updates doing the clumsy movement).

Now numbers, if i have 20ms and enemy has 80ms in console (20ms higher than you see in tab scoreboard) and i have 140ms reflex and he has 200ms like every potato, who will win?

At time 0 he starts peeking and spots first pixel of me.
At time 200 he reacts and countersteps and aims at head and shoots.
At time 280 he gets a kill at server.

ME:

At time 0 i see simply nothing because he is lagcompensated.
At time 80 server starts sending info about his peek (60ms ping in , unfortunatelly ping in console is always 20ms higher on both sides so the real lagcompensation is this number - 80ms)
At time 100 my client starts showing his first pixel of peek.
At time 260 server sends info that the 3rd world opponent counterstepped and stopped.
At time 280 i see more than his first pixel and with 140ms reaction + 2-3 other ticks delay until i see something really visible i shoot but i miss because he is not at the position i see him. In reality he stopped his movement and is 1m closer to the wall than im shooting.
At time 280 my client gets info about his actual position and corrects it by teleporting enemy 1 meter back. I have crosshair 1m off following the previously fake predicted movement and even if i flick him, im dead nevertheless at this time at server.
At time 300 even if i were lucky enough to hit the opponent before client corrects his position (ITS possible! but very rare if you flick really fast) the server shows me a big middle finger because i died 20ms before at the server.
Last edited by joseph_from_pilsen on 02 Apr 2022, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.

Unixko
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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by Unixko » 02 Apr 2022, 03:57

joseph_from_pilsen wrote:
02 Apr 2022, 00:48
Hello,

i have reaction time 135-145ms at humanbenchmark and i can recognize even the mouse input lag in csgo.

The first guy is FULLY RIGHT, i extremelly suffer from the crap called lagcompensation and i will explain you how it works. Whenever i go against 40+ms i will have guaranteedly a crap game, playing with fiber optics and low ping. I stopped playing faceit because there are no more legit players in EU, only Russlan and turkish crap high ping abusers with free prefire by valve crapcompensation. The situation got unacceptable in 2020, since 2020 there is no chance to get full low ping lobby more often than every 10th game.

Now how it works.

Unfortunatelly, there is no legit way how to remove lagcompensation, its server sided and lagcompensation does ONE thing - it DELAYS the information whenever lagger moves, and delays this information to the all other players. And it does by incredibly stupid way (in valorant they seem to patch it to 35ms hardlimit max, result: all russkies moved to csgo). It does the way that the HIGHER is your ping the LONGER the server delays the information about your movement. What is the result?
The result is simple, you see opponent peeking you with a delay as long as his ping is. Stupid. But its not the worst thing. There is cl_predict 1 parameter which means that your client predicts the LAST known enemy state. The problem is that whenever the opponent peeks you, your client
ANother problem is that if you have FAST REACTIONS, you will automatically miss because you will simply fire before the client gets the info and stops predicting movement. You can try it, if you see a russkie or turk peeking you, notice 2 things:
1) they move but you cant shoot at them because they stop instantly and teleport back (thats because cl_predict 1 predicts movement 100ms after they stopped and the client still moves their texture).
2) they look moving and shooting (because cl_predict 1 predicts obsolete old info from server that they move, but in reality they already stop and aim at your head at server and their client)
3) they are incredibly laggy (because there is no added missing frame correction like in valorant, also there are cheats causing the stuttering by manipulating hidden parameters reducing server updates doing the clumsy movement).

Now numbers, if i have 20ms and enemy has 80ms in console (20ms higher than you see in tab scoreboard) and i have 140ms reflex and he has 200ms like every potato, who will win?

At time 0 he starts peeking and spots first pixel of me.
At time 200 he reacts and countersteps and aims at head and shoots.
At time 280 he gets a kill at server.

ME:

At time 0 i see simply nothing because he is lagcompensated.
At time 80 server starts sending info about his peek (60ms ping in , unfortunatelly ping in console is always 20ms higher on both sides so the real lagcompensation is this number - 80ms)
At time 100 my client starts showing his first pixel of peek.
At time 260 server sends info that the 3rd world opponent counterstepped and stopped.
At time 280 i see more than his first pixel and with 140ms reaction + 2-3 other ticks delay until i see something really visible i shoot but i miss because he is not at the position i see him. In reality he stopped his movement and is 1m closer to the wall than im shooting.
At time 280 my client gets info about his actual position and corrects it by teleporting enemy 1 meter back. I have crosshair 1m off following the previously fake predicted movement and even if i flick him, im dead nevertheless at this time at server.
At time 300 even if i were lucky enough to hit the opponent before client corrects his position (ITS possible! but very rare if you flick really fast) the server shows me a big middle finger because i died 20ms before at the server.
unlucky theory man
when i have 100 ping i get destroyed by everybody and when enemy have 100 + ping he is running shooting god
how so teľll me are you missing something there
this high ping theory is not aply for everybody

joseph_from_pilsen
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Re: Why you will NEVER Fix "Desync/Lag" in CSGO.

Post by joseph_from_pilsen » 02 Apr 2022, 12:44

ITs not a theory, the fact that someone is bad with high ping because he doesnt know how to abuse peekers lag advantage, doesnt mean its generally valid argument. Simply keep moving and no one can kill you. And if they can, it means that you would be even worse without this unfair advantage.

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