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Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 23 Jan 2018, 16:47

Sparky wrote:Mouse sensors have pretty high framerates to begin with, PMW 3360 for example can do 12kfps. They kinda have to, because they have to have overlapping images in order to track the surface. Not sure how frequently the sensor can be sampled though.

Thanks for the correction. I've updated my post. The ultra-high-Hz indeed is needed to be able to have high dpi with such low-resolution cameras (16x16 or 32x32). The litmus test is getting those actual position rates to the computer at such fine granularities.

Duplicate-position-reports are frequently observed during mouse overclocking, due to limitations in the chain.

I would love to see true 2000 Hz position reports (directly derived from sensor) rather than doing duplicate reports or doing mathematical interpolation between 1000Hz reports.
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby darzo » 23 Jan 2018, 21:23

So you do not believe Cougar's claim that their 2000hz polling rate is not overclocked?
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 23 Jan 2018, 21:58

darzo wrote:So you do not believe Cougar's claim that their 2000hz polling rate is not overclocked?

No -- I didn't say as such. I'm just mentioning, historically, mouse overclocking has often provided either interpolated or duplicated readings. I simply need proof that the extra samples per second come directly from the mouse sensor -- I'd love to see this in operation!

I'm going to try and create a new mouse poll rate test.
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby darzo » 23 Jan 2018, 22:35

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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 23 Jan 2018, 22:37

I'd like to see a test that shows poll rate and report rate, as well as graphing the data to attempt to detect any interpolation logic being applied. An independent, impartial poll-rate test & report-rate test.
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby darzo » 23 Jan 2018, 22:40

Any interest in doing it yourself? Should get some views if positive.
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 24 Jan 2018, 13:55

darzo wrote:Any interest in doing it yourself? Should get some views if positive.

No, but I will provide a simpler (quicker) mouse poll test soon.

Not as comprehensive as command-line mouse testers, but good enough to answer questions quickly (like 2000Hz truths).

The 2000Hz honesty is what I am most interest in -- with vested interests -- other developers can program mouse testers for other purposes -- but what I am personally most interested is, is how honest the 2000 positions per second is.

Just a simple GUI visualization. It'll simply visually graph delta data and acceleration data, which makes it easy to see if the mouse is smooth or rough (mousepad changes has an effect). Graphing deltas & acceleration will help visually verify how accurate-looking the poll rate is (duplicate positions, interpolated positions, rough movement, smooth movement, rounding-behaviours, etc).

This is different from timing-accuracy tests (0.125us poll accuracy of 8KHz overclocks like those beautifully posted on overclock.net) but most mouse testers don't even visualize certain kinds of data that could help identify errors: Visually eyeballing delta/acceleration imperfections in graphs can be fun!
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby Sparky » 24 Jan 2018, 15:32

The biggest problem with most mouse tests I've seen is that they only look at what comes out of the mouse, they don't compare it to a more accurate position measurement. For example, you could use a linear encoder from DRO(a digital position readout for machining), and directly compare it against the mouse output.

Such a setup would allow you to measure linearity, acceleration, noise, and movement latency, for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars, depending on whether you count labor. Not something I'd expect out of every reviewer, but something I'd like to see from one or two reviewers that test a lot of mice.
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby darzo » 24 Jan 2018, 16:25

Well, tell me when you have that test available. They either crushed or lost the Minos I ordered so nothing I can do but wait anyway. By the way, 8-1 with McCree in OW competitive since I switched from the Pro to the Roccat KPOE. No handling problems. Shape matters, and I'm not sure the Minos will match the KPOE. One poster on overlock.net did mention that his Cougar did not feel erratic or any worse than other mice and in fact felt "a little snappier". Can't wait to try out one of their mice that's of a more appropriate size for me.
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Re: Are Cougar Mice Legit 2000hz Polling Rate?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 24 Jan 2018, 17:08

Sparky wrote:The biggest problem with most mouse tests I've seen is that they only look at what comes out of the mouse, they don't compare it to a more accurate position measurement. For example, you could use a linear encoder from DRO(a digital position readout for machining), and directly compare it against the mouse output.

Statistical analysis of mouse output can actually reveal a surprising lot of data. (granularity behaviours, rounding-behaviours, erratic behaviours). It won't be as perfect as a full DRO setup but a software app that does some basic statistical analysis or visualizations on position readouts, is what I'm interested in.

Initially I'll just do visualization (e.g. graphing deltas, graphing acceleration, etc) and letting people interpret the color-coded output. If there's waviness, sawtoothing, zigzagging, erraticness in the data, rolling-averages of varying depths, etc -- imperfections can shows up like a christmas tree in graph visualizations. So let's begin with easy. Reference mice (mice that eSports players love) will have their particular data look-and-feel in color coded graph visualizations.

Mice that does 'too much guessing' or 'averages too much' or is generally very erratic, will show either unusual smoothness (independent of mousepads: Rough-vs-smooth mousepads will show instantaneous acceleration spikes, unless the mouse intentionally averages the data to data-smooth this). Or color coded spikes in graphs (obvious overshoot artifacts from interpolation and extrapolation errors etc), etc.

I already started coding something, almost finished. It's very, very rudimentary, and requires users to interpret data (or just post screenshots). But at least it is a quick test. It does one thing most other testers don't currently do, at least in a user-friendly way: Realtime color-coded graph visualizations, with multiple concurrent simultaneous graphs for different data points simultaneously. They already do for some datapoints, just not all of them.

Users can keep using other testers, and simply use the Blur Busters Mouse Rate test application as yet another datapoint (to fill in the missing gaps).

I'm currently mainly interested in visualizing the accuracy of position reports. Statistical analysis can come later (since visualizations are really useful!).
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