How much do ram timings affect input lag?

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Krizak
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by Krizak » 22 Jun 2020, 15:23

https://github.com/integralfx/MemTestHe ... g-software

https://www.overclock.net/forum/27784556-post7836.html

Its more than just a couple settings. Also depends on RAM kit, CPU memory controller, and motherboard. Order of operations for overclocking memory should be following

1. Highest bandwidth with loose primary timings (3200mhz, 3600mhz, 4000mhz, etc.). 19-19-19-40 is a good starting point.
2. Primary timings (ie bumping that 19-19-19-40 one setting at a time down to something something like 16-16-16-34.
3. Secondary timings (read above documents)
4. Tertiary timings (read above documents).
5. Can get into even more advanced things like RTL/IOL along with a few other things but not worth the trouble.

At each point you should be testing memory stability. Also gotta play around with your VCCIO/SA/RAM voltage. Memory overclocking is probably the hardest thing to overclock in your system. The above guides provide the framework and I am not responsible for any damage you do to your PC. Perform at your own risk just like any other overclocking.
Game PC: ASUS PG258Q 240hz, 8700K 5.1ghz OC , ASUS MAXIMUS IX APEX Z270, 2 x 8GB 4200Mhz 16-16-16-36, Nvidia 1080FE
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deama
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by deama » 22 Jun 2020, 16:26

Ok, I think I've noticed a difference now, my mouse feels a bit smoother now, perhaps the better word would be more "consistent"?

I basically kept my tFAW at 16, and went ahead and changed my tRRDS from 6 to 4, and tRRDL from 8 to 4.

ptuga
Posts: 44
Joined: 20 May 2020, 02:06

Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by ptuga » 22 Jun 2020, 16:41

deama wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:26
Ok, I think I've noticed a difference now, my mouse feels a bit smoother now, perhaps the better word would be more "consistent"?

I basically kept my tFAW at 16, and went ahead and changed my tRRDS from 6 to 4, and tRRDL from 8 to 4.
I know this is not an overclocking forum but here it goes...

Your tFaw can only be as low as four times your RRD_s.
Also I found lower tRFC makes things snappier yet less consistent. Very noticeable in flicking scenarios like Tile Frenzy. I'm actually using default tRFC because of this, after a lot of testing.

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schizobeyondpills
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by schizobeyondpills » 22 Jun 2020, 16:43

deama wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:26
Ok, I think I've noticed a difference now, my mouse feels a bit smoother now, perhaps the better word would be more "consistent"?

I basically kept my tFAW at 16, and went ahead and changed my tRRDS from 6 to 4, and tRRDL from 8 to 4.
U wont notice much difference adjusting 2ndary timings or teritary ones WITHOUT first disabling ram power down mode/power saving feature. It wont be as visible since RAM power down adds significant latency to everything related to ram so small changes that affect things below 1ns wont be as easily noticeable.

Also use intel memory latency checker to measure.

first things first u should set command rate to 1, try increase tREFI, lower tRFC.

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axaro1
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by axaro1 » 22 Jun 2020, 16:59

ptuga wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:41

I know this is not an overclocking forum but here it goes...

Your tFaw can only be as low as four times your RRD_s.
Also I found lower tRFC makes things snappier yet less consistent. Very noticeable in flicking scenarios like Tile Frenzy. I'm actually using default tRFC because of this, after a lot of testing.

There is a shit ton of misinformation in this thread:


Timings DO NOT CHANGE INPUT LAG


tFAW: Four Activate Window. The amount of time in which four row activations can occur within the same rank. Pretty self explanatory, if the IMC needs to access four different rows of memory within one rank of a DIMM, it will take tFAW cycles to do so.

Overclocking guidelines? : This timing isn’t hearsay! According to AMD, the minimum for this timing is 4 * tRRDS (lower actually does nothing), but if that isn’t stable, it may be worth trying 5 * tRRDS, 8 * tRRDS, or higher.


Some people can't even notice 3ms difference, best case scenario your lower your RAM latency by 1ns.
What is 1 nanosecond? 0,000001 milliseconds or 0.000000001 seconds.

This thread is a placebo fiesta

Btw if you want to tighten timings on ryzen my recommendation is:
1) Try Ryzen Dram Calculator
2) Use this guide to tighten primary and secondary timings even further https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/c ... _ryzen_oc/
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ptuga
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by ptuga » 22 Jun 2020, 17:15

axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59


There is a shit ton of misinformation in this thread:


Timings DO NOT CHANGE INPUT LAG


tFAW: Four Activate Window. The amount of time in which four row activations can occur within the same rank. Pretty self explanatory, if the IMC needs to access four different rows of memory within one rank of a DIMM, it will take tFAW cycles to do so.

Overclocking guidelines? : This timing isn’t hearsay! According to AMD, the minimum for this timing is 4 * tRRDS (lower actually does nothing), but if that isn’t stable, it may be worth trying 5 * tRRDS, 8 * tRRDS, or higher.


Some people can't even notice 3ms difference, best case scenario your lower your RAM latency by 1ns.
What is 1 nanosecond? 0,000001 milliseconds or 0.000000001 seconds.

This thread is a placebo fiesta

Btw if you want to tighten timings on ryzen my recommendation is:
1) Try Ryzen Dram Calculator
2) Use this guide to tighten primary and secondary timings even further https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/c ... _ryzen_oc/
My Kovaak's scores tell otherwise, how is that placebo? I'm very consistent in certain scenarios, and when i go back and forth the results speak for themselves.
Not sure if it's input lag, but mouse feels a lot different.

Krizak
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by Krizak » 22 Jun 2020, 19:08

axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59
ptuga wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:41

I know this is not an overclocking forum but here it goes...

Your tFaw can only be as low as four times your RRD_s.
Also I found lower tRFC makes things snappier yet less consistent. Very noticeable in flicking scenarios like Tile Frenzy. I'm actually using default tRFC because of this, after a lot of testing.
There is a shit ton of misinformation in this thread:
I can agree that there is misinformation. I prefer something that is measurable rather than "I changed "XXX"setting, and it "feels" faster/smoother/etc.

Here are some tools that I use to actually measure results to include memory overclocking:

LatencyMon
https://resplendence.com/latencymon

Aida64
https://www.aida64.com/downloads

MouseTester
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mic ... oaded.html
axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59

Timings DO NOT CHANGE INPUT LAG
axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59

This thread is a placebo fiesta
Have to disagree with this statements if I understand the context it is directed at (when someone says they "feel" something improved). There is evidence that memory bandwidth, latency, etc. all have a direct correliation to improving max FPS in addition improving FPS 1% and .1% lows. That means less input lag in of itself. Sometimes it depends on the game, but there are tools out there that actually can measure this. One such tool that one can test their own memory overclocks and results with is CapFrameX. Here is a link to that tool:

CapFrameX
https://github.com/CXWorld/CapFrameX

Also if you add in all the overclocking you can do (CPU, memory, uncore) and optimizations and tweaks with an operating system, it all adds up to a much more efficient gaming system.
Game PC: ASUS PG258Q 240hz, 8700K 5.1ghz OC , ASUS MAXIMUS IX APEX Z270, 2 x 8GB 4200Mhz 16-16-16-36, Nvidia 1080FE
Work PC: Dell 2716DG 144hz, 6850K 4.1ghz OC, Asus Rampage Extreme X Motherboard, 4 x 8GB 3200mhz 15-15-15-35 , Nvidia 1050TI

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MaxTendency
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by MaxTendency » 22 Jun 2020, 20:13

deama wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 14:17
Alright so I just overclocked my tFAW timings from 39 to 16, I can't really feel a difference on mouse movements or really anything much.

Is there some sort of general guide on what each of the timings does, or is it basically the wild west?
I assumed folks here were advanced so I didn't mention but yes, as others have already pointed out, minimum tFAW can be is tRRDS * 4. You also need to lower tRDDL I believe. I went from tRDDS tRDDL tFAW 6 6 27 to 4 4 16

As for what "snappier" means, the movement is basically more responsive, I don't think notice any major changes in click latency but I wasn't actively looking for it.
axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59

Timings DO NOT CHANGE INPUT LAG
Highly disagree. Not only can I instantly tell which one was tFAW 16 my kovaak scores also had an instant increase of 4-6% accuracy especially tracking scenarios like Close Fast Strafe Invincible.

Happyalive
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Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by Happyalive » 22 Jun 2020, 23:08

Must suck to have Ryzen, and be forced to cope over +300ns loaded latency penalty. Anyways, this isn't really complicated but it's not 10ns for you, it's 10ns for your cpu. Human brain refreshes sub 1k times a second, cpus refresh billions. It's not even hard to test, just toggle between shit ram timings and good ram timings. If you can't feel difference that's because of another system bottleneck or slow brain. It's like a blind person screaming about how nobody can see, because they can't.

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axaro1
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Location: Milan, Italy

Re: How much do ram timings affect input lag?

Post by axaro1 » 23 Jun 2020, 02:49

Krizak wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 19:08
axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59

I can agree that there is misinformation. I prefer something that is measurable rather than "I changed "XXX"setting, and it "feels" faster/smoother/etc.

Here are some tools that I use to actually measure results to include memory overclocking:

LatencyMon
https://resplendence.com/latencymon

Aida64
https://www.aida64.com/downloads

MouseTester
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mic ... oaded.html
axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59

Timings DO NOT CHANGE INPUT LAG
axaro1 wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 16:59

This thread is a placebo fiesta
Have to disagree with this statements if I understand the context it is directed at (when someone says they "feel" something improved). There is evidence that memory bandwidth, latency, etc. all have a direct correliation to improving max FPS in addition improving FPS 1% and .1% lows. That means less input lag in of itself. Sometimes it depends on the game, but there are tools out there that actually can measure this. One such tool that one can test their own memory overclocks and results with is CapFrameX. Here is a link to that tool:

CapFrameX
https://github.com/CXWorld/CapFrameX

Also if you add in all the overclocking you can do (CPU, memory, uncore) and optimizations and tweaks with an operating system, it all adds up to a much more efficient gaming system.
The only argument here that makes sense is tight timings = more fps = lower frame times, the rest is just repurposing driver latency testings and core latency testings to prove a weak point.

The only thing that could make sense is unstable RAM producing errors/error correction causing asynchronous behaviour in time sensitive application.
XL2566K* | XV252QF* | LG C1* | HP OMEN X 25 | XL2546K | VG259QM | XG2402 | LS24F350[RIP]
*= currently owned



MONITOR: XL2566K custom VT: https://i.imgur.com/ylYkuLf.png
CPU: 5800x3d 102mhz BCLK
GPU: 3080FE undervolted
RAM: https://i.imgur.com/iwmraZB.png
MOUSE: Endgame Gear OP1 8k
KEYBOARD: Wooting 60he

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