Debate about 120Hz Mainstreaming

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Debate about 120Hz Becoming Mainstream

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Nov 2020, 18:48

schizobeyondpills wrote:
08 Nov 2020, 02:15
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 23:22
Also, we aren't just only about esports here. High Hz is for everybody, even non-gamers.
unfortunately no, high frequency/low latency components are only for a niche % of human race with high enough mental clockrate to just be able to perceive them, 99% of human race is very happy with 24 FPS movies/Netflix.
Correct. Grandma not telling DVD versus HDTV, yada, yada, yada, yada.... I've heard the story many times. Perspective! ;)

However,
Mainstream did not ask for 1080p
Mainstream did not ask for 4K
Mainstream did not ask for 8K

What is happening:
- Apple and Samsung are slowly commoditizing 120Hz
- New consoles now do 120Hz
- Almost all 4K HDTVs now support 120Hz
- DELL and HP are going to be adding 120Hz to office monitors as a standard feature later this decade

Yes, Apple postponed 120Hz to the next iPhone, but you see the trend that 120Hz becomes a freebie (slowly), much like 4K is an included feature of almost any television you buy today. Suuuuuure, many run 4K TVs at only 1080p, but that is not my point. And yes, many run 120Hz displays at only 60Hz, though increasingly when you plug in a computer to an LG CX OLED or the newest XBox into a recent Samsung, it more frequently autodetects 120Hz and jumps to it. Much like new Netflix players automatically use 4K now if plugged into a 4K TV.

But, guess what? 120Hz is now being considered as a standards-addition to office monitors. Laptops and PCs plugged into them, autodetect them as 120Hz and people observe it scrolls smooth like a 120Hz Apple iPad. Also, upcoming Apple laptops/monitors are rumored to start including 120Hz in the coming years, until the entire Apple suite is all universally 120Hz for user-experience considerations.

So, don't teach me 120Hz is not being mainstreamed later this century. Suuuure, we may disagree when it becomes mainstream, but when I can buy a new XBox and a new TV, and it already automatically goes straight to 120Hz, one starts to realize what I'm talking about.

By end of this decade, it will be increasingly harder to buy a display that doesn't support 120Hz, much like it's hard to buy 720p unless going bottom-barrel. People start seeing the difference, much like when 4K was pushed onto people. Browser scrolling halves in motion blur.

My parents also even remarked the impressive improvement in laptop scrolling performance when I showed their 4K TV supports 120Hz from the laptop.

120Hz is being commoditized slowly whether you like it or not. Ever since we discontinued CRTs, the slow discovery of the need to increase refresh rates have yielded new discoveries and understandings (that before then, only few believed/knew about). Duh.

Also, there is a discovery of a nausea uncanny valley where 48fps and 120fps HFR creates more headaches than 1000fps UltraHFR. I'm a fan of 24fps Hollywood Movie Maker mode. I worked for RUNCO / Key Digital / dScaler / etc and was the inventor of the world's first Open Source 3:2 Pull Down Deinterlacer Algorithm in year 2000 (twenty years ago) -- if you saw my Internet Archive link in my 3:2 pulldown thread.

Eventually, it outperformed a Faroudja line double back in the day when John Adcock implemented my algorithm in MMX assembly language, allowing real time 3:2 pulldown deinterlacing and 24fps->72Hz conversion in year 2000 from a HTPC connected to my 72Hz-capable NEC XG135 CRT projector. Originally working on a Hauppauge TV card, I upgraded it to a SDI-capable card, so it was now deinterlacing 720x480 near flawlessly from an analog input signal from a SDI-capable DVD player.

So, yessiere, I have Hollywood Moviemaker snob cred. But, my favourite frame rates are 24fps (classic) and 1000fps (holodeck) as a result. I'm a bit disdainful of 48fps and 120fps non-strobed HFR though. Still too much motion blur, especially since source blur (camera) and destination blur (persistence) is additive.

But I am smart enough to know the HFR problems and soap opera effect problems too. The motion sickness-nausea uncanny valley where there's still a bit motion blur, but stutter is now gone, is sometimes a headache-creating combination for some. (It's similar for VR, but it also surprisingly applies to discrete flat panel displays too). You might have seen my UltraHFR work at www.blurbusters.com/ultrahfr

Strobing is a great band-aid for this region of frame rates above flicker fusion threshold, but too low for blurless sample-and-hold. Many are still headached by "smooth motion that still has motion blur" (aka 120fps HFR). But a subsegment gets sick from strobing. 60Hz vs 120Hz is an 8.3ms improvement, and we need 120Hz->1000Hz for almost equal improvement (7.3ms improvement), as a dramatic spike up the diminishing curve of returns, avoiding the incrementalism of 240Hz and 480Hz. We're big fans of going straight to 1000Hz for UltraHFR, actually.

The strobeless blur reduction route (1000fps 1000Hz) has far fewer headaches, due to no flicker-induced sicknesses and no blur-induced sicknesses. Everybody sees differently and gets bothered differently. Hate brightness or hate flicker or hate tearing. 12% are color blind. Everybody's glasses have different prescriptions. Everybody reacts differently. Some barfs at the flicker. Others barf at the motion blur (motion blur sickness). Yet more barfs at stutter (motion fluidity sickness). The way you feel about motion is not the same as the way the other person feels about motion.

But the fact remains: Jumping over the HFR uncanny valley is also part of Blur Busters' goals too to simultaneously solve flicker/blur considerations.
1. Fix source stroboscopic effect (camera): Must use a 360-degree camera shutter;
2. Fix destination stroboscopic effect (display): Must use a sample-and-hold display;
3. Fix source motion blur (camera): Must use a short camera exposure per frame;
4. Fix destination motion blur (display): Must use a short persistence per refresh cycle.
Therefore;
A. Ultra high frame rate with 360-degree camera shutter is also short camera exposure per frame;
B. Ultra high refresh rate with sample-and-hold display is also short persistence per refresh cycle,

Until recently, there was no technology to prove this. But now that there is (Phantom Flex 1000fps sped-up on prototype 1000Hz displays), it.... Just dropped more than a dozen jaws, including from many Hollywood Moviemaker snobs that were anti-SOE. All the blur dizzy/nausea/sicknesses completely disappeared, and all the flicker-derived dizzy/nausea/sickness cases completely disappeared. It wasn't five-sigma comfort, but it added another nine (or two) to the discomfort-reduction in early casual tests. The flat-panel version of VR-sickness-elimination. As long as you're not doing too much vertigo-inducing stuff (so movie producer technique for "IMAX simulator footage" style use cases will quickly optimize to 1000fps 1000Hz comfort), it's miraculous in being less nauseous than semiblurry SOE-feeling 120fps HFR. You either stay low (24fps) for comfort, or you go all the way (low persistence sample and hold), "Go Big Or Go Home" when it comes to HFR, go straight to UltraHFR.

Research papers will come out by 2030s, but the early skunkworks just micdropped a lot of questions. It's an astounding amount of work leaping 120Hz to 1000Hz, but fortunately it has now ceased to be technological unobtainium. There is now an engineering path to a gigantic 8K 1000Hz for a specialized display (hyper expensive simulator display) in less than a mere decade involving full-bitdepth refresh cycles (no DLP temporal dithering shit). The GPU horsepower is almost there (in custom software written for 4-SLI) generating ~240-400fps at 8K in tightly optimized SLI-only framepacing on all those cards -- with some difficulty. But that's less an order of magnitude away from becoming a successful realtime source for the already engineered 8K 1000Hz plan -- it will take only a few more years to push 8K 1000fps Unreal 5 quality for "cost no object" situations, assisted partially by some frame rate amplification algorithms. There is obviously SLI latency of frame pipelining, but, at least it's adequately realtime for simulator-priority scenarios. (It's still less than VR strobe lag).

Even at still 1000fps, there is still 8 pixels of motion blur per 8000 pixels/sec, but the motionblur is so low that most footage doesn't even reaveal any of this; with most pans being comfortable (no phantom arrays, no stroboscopics, no motion blur) no matter what your eye gaze is doing relative to the display (fixed eye view, tracking eye view); it looks closer to analog motion! Like real life than any external direct-view display has ever be. Majority of motion blur limitations now shifts to human brain limitations, instead of display enforcing motion blur on you above-and-beyond source blur and display persistence. With natural behavior of brain, less nausea from side effects of the humankind invention of digital frame rates to emulate analog motion. Even 1000fps 1000Hz is not the final frontier, but it's such a magical punch of a jump up the diminishing curve of returns that is no longer an Apollo mission anymore or Star Trek unobtainium -- more technologically achievable like a jet flight to altitude.

By 2040, with the boom of 1000Hz for esports/VR/reality emulation/holodeck/simulator rigs/industrial/amusement rides/etc use cases in the elite spheres quickly making 120fps cinematic HFR minor stepping stone undesirably obsolete -- plus also 120Hz and 240Hz are engineerably-into-freebie (like retina and 4K) since the BOM and math checks out to a viable commoditization paths that I've been hearing about behind the scenes. 120Hz is following the path of retina screens as we speak, although the path-to-commoditization-as-freebie-includedness is about approximately 2x slower.

We're more like the 1970s and 1980s people conceptualizing HDTV right now; you heard it here first: UltraHFR is the HFR Holy Grail, to the point where there will probably only be two still-popular new-content-creation framerates by year 2100: 24fps (or a low below-flicker-fusion-threshold framerate), and >1000fps (far beyond other annoying thresholds). A small remaining subsegment of population will still always have motion sickness that is only solvable by 24fps. But a lot of those 48fps&120fps discomfort cases are fixed at 1000fps@1000Hz. All other frame rates eventually becomes niche or legacy (like viewing last century's 60Hz videos). That's the far-futurist in me speaking, but ultimately, high-Hz isn't expensive. After witnessing 1000fps 1000Hz, non-strobed 48fps and 120fps HFR video is now garbage incrementalism.

There will always be people who get sick from any motion, but fewer people get sick from 1000fps@1000Hz than from 48fps or 120fps HFR (strobed or nonstrobed).

We're strobing only because refresh rates are not high enough for low-persistence flicker-free operation (low persistence sample-and-hold). Our name sake is Blur Busters, and while we're also latency focussed, we are also hugely smoothness/blur focussed.

Anyway, offtopic.

The point is, it's so blatantly obvious that 120Hz is going be freebie mainstream by ~2030 (you're living under a rock if you can't see the trojan horsing), and 240Hz is going to be freebie mainstream by ~2040 due to ergonomic browser scrolling motion blur considerations and simple mudane stuff like that. Like 4K is now a freebie in televisions, even all those $299 Walmart sales. (Some of those even now has 120Hz in its PnP DisplayID/E-EDID too!) High Hz fundamentally isn't an expensive technology anymore because the performance required is getting cheaper and cheaper, and the migration to reality emulation requires a good big jump over the uncanny valley all the way to strobeless CRT clarity for the proper video wow effect.
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schizobeyondpills
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Debate about 120Hz Mainstreaming

Post by schizobeyondpills » 26 Nov 2020, 07:45

1. we both know those "120Hz" are not actual real 120Hz displays once measured properly. that requires actual engineering rather than marketing.
( https://youtu.be/MbZUgKpzTA0 )

especially on phones lol.


so no. no actual 120hz, we dont even have 60.
and dont forget that whole system needs to have low frame latency.

2. again, browser tools dont allow by api to look deeper into what, why, where the issue is. you can just extract small side channel info of a spike. to get depth about the problem you need a native optimized tool that can see and analyze in depth what the problem is with 1000+ data variables of the system (threads/processes/cpu load/page faults etc etc).
browser tool is like noticing theres no daylight because sun went out and u cant see it in the sky, native optimized tool is being able to look at the surface of the sun at microscopic level to see what went wrong.

3. browser is what causes problems because it spawns 10 processes or more(for bleeding edge group of people). also pointerevents are microsecond timestamps. go cycles or go home.

again, theres no problem with your tool IF theres a proper disclaimer it can NOT be applied to bleeding edge group of people.

you and the masses can do whatever you wish as long as you dont misuse findings to destroy or silence those that want more and that includes calling out flawed peripherals of esports aka razer synapse bloat or power saving sensors or mice. i dont care about 99.999999% of human race and never will. i live to be hardcore real time because hard was too easy.

i dont want to end up having to waste 2 hours snapping someone out of submission to authority next time im discussing latency of mice. "b but testufo mouse tester doesnt show this". i can just tell them to read the disclaimer about it being a casual oriented tool rather than bleeding edge low latency and then block them ofc.

dont get too hyped about changing the industry. you only get fixed what you can expose( trust me). meaning you will have good integer polling but that will be smoothed out or with other tricks which they can shortcut their way into because you didnt grip them by their capitalism exploiting souless neck and exposed their shortcuts that hide behind the curtain(at least 4 digits past the dot). you only exposed the first layer of scam while they ride on at least 15.

just like with monitors. sure we have 240 360hz but none of them once measured properly have response time for that claim. or overdrive setting. or temperature affecting response time.

so no. we dont have 120hz nor 1000hz polling nor 8000hz. masses get what they can expose companies for and lock them so theres no way out but doing what masses want. 8000hz wont get you 8000.0hz( MEASURES OF TIME AND SPACE VALUES ARE NOT TO BE INTERPRETED IN SAME WAY TYVM)

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Re: Debate about 120Hz Mainstreaming

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Nov 2020, 09:00

About 120 Hz mainstreaming.

Your post is so silly since you already know refresh rate & response are decoupled. 120Hz can remain as screens improve GtG -- i.e. vendors switch to OLED or MicroLED, etc. If you have any experience with 120Hz OLED panels (Galaxy phones), you notice they scale much more pure/linearly on Blur Busters Law since their GtG~99% 256x256 being pretty reliable tiny fraction of a Hz with OLEDs. Not all phones are LCD, some are OLED.

Besides, the 8K 1000Hz display engineering path in question has a pure GtG100% 256x256 heatmap, not being of traditional LCD panel nor OLED panel, and not even DLP. It isn't something you can put on a desk.

Also if you teardown and GtG-heatmap the VR LCDs in HTC Vive and/or Oculus Rift S / Quest 2, it has some of the best LCD GtG heatmaps found of any LCD panels, far better than any desktop LCD. The Oculus Quest 2 LCD, in particular, apparently manages zero strobe crosstalk for entire top/center/bottom -- it is highly likely in the territory of GtG 99.5%-100% completeness during strobing moments, far better than the next best strobed LCD. One of these days, somebody is going to have to teardown a VR LCD, and put a continuous backlight on it (disabling the low persistence) and GtG-heatmap it. It's almost a Holy Grail LCD in how clean its GtG is, zero ghosts in www.testufo.com/crosstalk in Quest 2's in-VR web browser -- I couldn't detect a single pixel of strobe crosstalk anywhere, it was perfect CRT clarity with no hints of ghosts.

And we all know JumboTrons are already using 600Hz-1920Hz 32x32 and 64x64 LED matrixes, that are repeat-refreshing 60Hz frames at darn nigh practically perfect GtG100% 256x256. But can be modded with custom chips to refresh 600-1920 unique images per second, for a retina-Hz JumboTron. You can read all about the retina refresh rate JumboTron concept.
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Re: Debate about 120Hz Mainstreaming

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Dec 2020, 02:23

P.S. Blur Busters are very familiar with the GtG heatmapping stuff, which we do internally do (to a depth greater than places like RTINGS and Hardware Unboxed).

We're very familiar with the difficulty in reaching linear relationship (Blur Busters Law) with commodity LCD screens, which is quite a damn shame. But belittling the refresh rates as being conflated with GtG is just pettiness.

I have visted many conventions, seen thousands of prototype displays, and more. Some do far better than others, and far worse than others.

But as a general rule of thumb, higher refresh rates and higher frame rates generally leads to motion blur reduction. GtG90%'s of half a refresh cycle or less allows the refresh rate improvements to reasonably punch through the noise floor; whereas GtG99%'s of of half a refresh cycle or less is even better (achievable with OLEDs)

One can argue towards a semantical standard, where a slow 120Hz display (like an overclocked old Korean IPS) has more motion blur than a 60Hz OLED. That certainly can happen. But a good fast-GtG 120Hz always has less motion blur than a good fast-GtG 60Hz.

This is why I keep pounding into manufacturers that faster rippleless (no ghost/corona) GtG is super important. Things are slowly getting better even though it's three steps forward two steps back. I try to encourage manufacturers to Fast-IPS over 240Hz VA. TN and blue-phase still have a place in the future, as does OLED and MicroLED / MiniLED.

The state of display art has to keep advancing, and 120Hz is becoming more mainstream as time passes while the higher refresh rates stay in elite territory.

Those who have seen my posts in other threads, know that I'm very keenly aware of GtG bottlenecking the refresh rate race, but to dismiss the Blur Busters mission of speeding up GtG is quite hypocritical/oxymoronic. Rising tide lifts all boats.
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