Correct. Grandma not telling DVD versus HDTV, yada, yada, yada, yada.... I've heard the story many times. Perspective!schizobeyondpills wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 02:15unfortunately no, high frequency/low latency components are only for a niche % of human race with high enough mental clockrate to just be able to perceive them, 99% of human race is very happy with 24 FPS movies/Netflix.Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020, 23:22Also, we aren't just only about esports here. High Hz is for everybody, even non-gamers.
However,
Mainstream did not ask for 1080p
Mainstream did not ask for 4K
Mainstream did not ask for 8K
What is happening:
- Apple and Samsung are slowly commoditizing 120Hz
- New consoles now do 120Hz
- Almost all 4K HDTVs now support 120Hz
- DELL and HP are going to be adding 120Hz to office monitors as a standard feature later this decade
Yes, Apple postponed 120Hz to the next iPhone, but you see the trend that 120Hz becomes a freebie (slowly), much like 4K is an included feature of almost any television you buy today. Suuuuuure, many run 4K TVs at only 1080p, but that is not my point. And yes, many run 120Hz displays at only 60Hz, though increasingly when you plug in a computer to an LG CX OLED or the newest XBox into a recent Samsung, it more frequently autodetects 120Hz and jumps to it. Much like new Netflix players automatically use 4K now if plugged into a 4K TV.
But, guess what? 120Hz is now being considered as a standards-addition to office monitors. Laptops and PCs plugged into them, autodetect them as 120Hz and people observe it scrolls smooth like a 120Hz Apple iPad. Also, upcoming Apple laptops/monitors are rumored to start including 120Hz in the coming years, until the entire Apple suite is all universally 120Hz for user-experience considerations.
So, don't teach me 120Hz is not being mainstreamed later this century. Suuuure, we may disagree when it becomes mainstream, but when I can buy a new XBox and a new TV, and it already automatically goes straight to 120Hz, one starts to realize what I'm talking about.
By end of this decade, it will be increasingly harder to buy a display that doesn't support 120Hz, much like it's hard to buy 720p unless going bottom-barrel. People start seeing the difference, much like when 4K was pushed onto people. Browser scrolling halves in motion blur.
My parents also even remarked the impressive improvement in laptop scrolling performance when I showed their 4K TV supports 120Hz from the laptop.
120Hz is being commoditized slowly whether you like it or not. Ever since we discontinued CRTs, the slow discovery of the need to increase refresh rates have yielded new discoveries and understandings (that before then, only few believed/knew about). Duh.
Also, there is a discovery of a nausea uncanny valley where 48fps and 120fps HFR creates more headaches than 1000fps UltraHFR. I'm a fan of 24fps Hollywood Movie Maker mode. I worked for RUNCO / Key Digital / dScaler / etc and was the inventor of the world's first Open Source 3:2 Pull Down Deinterlacer Algorithm in year 2000 (twenty years ago) -- if you saw my Internet Archive link in my 3:2 pulldown thread.
Eventually, it outperformed a Faroudja line double back in the day when John Adcock implemented my algorithm in MMX assembly language, allowing real time 3:2 pulldown deinterlacing and 24fps->72Hz conversion in year 2000 from a HTPC connected to my 72Hz-capable NEC XG135 CRT projector. Originally working on a Hauppauge TV card, I upgraded it to a SDI-capable card, so it was now deinterlacing 720x480 near flawlessly from an analog input signal from a SDI-capable DVD player.
So, yessiere, I have Hollywood Moviemaker snob cred. But, my favourite frame rates are 24fps (classic) and 1000fps (holodeck) as a result. I'm a bit disdainful of 48fps and 120fps non-strobed HFR though. Still too much motion blur, especially since source blur (camera) and destination blur (persistence) is additive.
But I am smart enough to know the HFR problems and soap opera effect problems too. The motion sickness-nausea uncanny valley where there's still a bit motion blur, but stutter is now gone, is sometimes a headache-creating combination for some. (It's similar for VR, but it also surprisingly applies to discrete flat panel displays too). You might have seen my UltraHFR work at www.blurbusters.com/ultrahfr
Strobing is a great band-aid for this region of frame rates above flicker fusion threshold, but too low for blurless sample-and-hold. Many are still headached by "smooth motion that still has motion blur" (aka 120fps HFR). But a subsegment gets sick from strobing. 60Hz vs 120Hz is an 8.3ms improvement, and we need 120Hz->1000Hz for almost equal improvement (7.3ms improvement), as a dramatic spike up the diminishing curve of returns, avoiding the incrementalism of 240Hz and 480Hz. We're big fans of going straight to 1000Hz for UltraHFR, actually.
The strobeless blur reduction route (1000fps 1000Hz) has far fewer headaches, due to no flicker-induced sicknesses and no blur-induced sicknesses. Everybody sees differently and gets bothered differently. Hate brightness or hate flicker or hate tearing. 12% are color blind. Everybody's glasses have different prescriptions. Everybody reacts differently. Some barfs at the flicker. Others barf at the motion blur (motion blur sickness). Yet more barfs at stutter (motion fluidity sickness). The way you feel about motion is not the same as the way the other person feels about motion.
But the fact remains: Jumping over the HFR uncanny valley is also part of Blur Busters' goals too to simultaneously solve flicker/blur considerations.
1. Fix source stroboscopic effect (camera): Must use a 360-degree camera shutter;
2. Fix destination stroboscopic effect (display): Must use a sample-and-hold display;
3. Fix source motion blur (camera): Must use a short camera exposure per frame;
4. Fix destination motion blur (display): Must use a short persistence per refresh cycle.
Therefore;
A. Ultra high frame rate with 360-degree camera shutter is also short camera exposure per frame;
B. Ultra high refresh rate with sample-and-hold display is also short persistence per refresh cycle,
Until recently, there was no technology to prove this. But now that there is (Phantom Flex 1000fps sped-up on prototype 1000Hz displays), it.... Just dropped more than a dozen jaws, including from many Hollywood Moviemaker snobs that were anti-SOE. All the blur dizzy/nausea/sicknesses completely disappeared, and all the flicker-derived dizzy/nausea/sickness cases completely disappeared. It wasn't five-sigma comfort, but it added another nine (or two) to the discomfort-reduction in early casual tests. The flat-panel version of VR-sickness-elimination. As long as you're not doing too much vertigo-inducing stuff (so movie producer technique for "IMAX simulator footage" style use cases will quickly optimize to 1000fps 1000Hz comfort), it's miraculous in being less nauseous than semiblurry SOE-feeling 120fps HFR. You either stay low (24fps) for comfort, or you go all the way (low persistence sample and hold), "Go Big Or Go Home" when it comes to HFR, go straight to UltraHFR.
Research papers will come out by 2030s, but the early skunkworks just micdropped a lot of questions. It's an astounding amount of work leaping 120Hz to 1000Hz, but fortunately it has now ceased to be technological unobtainium. There is now an engineering path to a gigantic 8K 1000Hz for a specialized display (hyper expensive simulator display) in less than a mere decade involving full-bitdepth refresh cycles (no DLP temporal dithering shit). The GPU horsepower is almost there (in custom software written for 4-SLI) generating ~240-400fps at 8K in tightly optimized SLI-only framepacing on all those cards -- with some difficulty. But that's less an order of magnitude away from becoming a successful realtime source for the already engineered 8K 1000Hz plan -- it will take only a few more years to push 8K 1000fps Unreal 5 quality for "cost no object" situations, assisted partially by some frame rate amplification algorithms. There is obviously SLI latency of frame pipelining, but, at least it's adequately realtime for simulator-priority scenarios. (It's still less than VR strobe lag).
Even at still 1000fps, there is still 8 pixels of motion blur per 8000 pixels/sec, but the motionblur is so low that most footage doesn't even reaveal any of this; with most pans being comfortable (no phantom arrays, no stroboscopics, no motion blur) no matter what your eye gaze is doing relative to the display (fixed eye view, tracking eye view); it looks closer to analog motion! Like real life than any external direct-view display has ever be. Majority of motion blur limitations now shifts to human brain limitations, instead of display enforcing motion blur on you above-and-beyond source blur and display persistence. With natural behavior of brain, less nausea from side effects of the humankind invention of digital frame rates to emulate analog motion. Even 1000fps 1000Hz is not the final frontier, but it's such a magical punch of a jump up the diminishing curve of returns that is no longer an Apollo mission anymore or Star Trek unobtainium -- more technologically achievable like a jet flight to altitude.
By 2040, with the boom of 1000Hz for esports/VR/reality emulation/holodeck/simulator rigs/industrial/amusement rides/etc use cases in the elite spheres quickly making 120fps cinematic HFR minor stepping stone undesirably obsolete -- plus also 120Hz and 240Hz are engineerably-into-freebie (like retina and 4K) since the BOM and math checks out to a viable commoditization paths that I've been hearing about behind the scenes. 120Hz is following the path of retina screens as we speak, although the path-to-commoditization-as-freebie-includedness is about approximately 2x slower.
We're more like the 1970s and 1980s people conceptualizing HDTV right now; you heard it here first: UltraHFR is the HFR Holy Grail, to the point where there will probably only be two still-popular new-content-creation framerates by year 2100: 24fps (or a low below-flicker-fusion-threshold framerate), and >1000fps (far beyond other annoying thresholds). A small remaining subsegment of population will still always have motion sickness that is only solvable by 24fps. But a lot of those 48fps&120fps discomfort cases are fixed at 1000fps@1000Hz. All other frame rates eventually becomes niche or legacy (like viewing last century's 60Hz videos). That's the far-futurist in me speaking, but ultimately, high-Hz isn't expensive. After witnessing 1000fps 1000Hz, non-strobed 48fps and 120fps HFR video is now garbage incrementalism.
There will always be people who get sick from any motion, but fewer people get sick from 1000fps@1000Hz than from 48fps or 120fps HFR (strobed or nonstrobed).
We're strobing only because refresh rates are not high enough for low-persistence flicker-free operation (low persistence sample-and-hold). Our name sake is Blur Busters, and while we're also latency focussed, we are also hugely smoothness/blur focussed.
Anyway, offtopic.
The point is, it's so blatantly obvious that 120Hz is going be freebie mainstream by ~2030 (you're living under a rock if you can't see the trojan horsing), and 240Hz is going to be freebie mainstream by ~2040 due to ergonomic browser scrolling motion blur considerations and simple mudane stuff like that. Like 4K is now a freebie in televisions, even all those $299 Walmart sales. (Some of those even now has 120Hz in its PnP DisplayID/E-EDID too!) High Hz fundamentally isn't an expensive technology anymore because the performance required is getting cheaper and cheaper, and the migration to reality emulation requires a good big jump over the uncanny valley all the way to strobeless CRT clarity for the proper video wow effect.