480 Hz monitors on the horizon?

Breaking news in the gaming monitor industry! Press releases, new monitors, rumors. IPS, OLED, 144Hz, G-SYNC, Ultrawides, etc. Submit news you see online!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Jul 2021, 00:06

Yes, I've expected this. About damn time that full-HD-resolution 480Hz LCDs finally hit the market!

We're now 50% of the way in the 1000Hz Journey :D

Hopefully LCD GtG is sped up even further, because 360Hz was pushing beyond limits somewhat (not as bad as 33ms 60Hz LCDs days, but GtGs of certain colors slower than refresh cycles!)

We've got a bunch of other tech such as Blue Phase LCDs, which will do 1000Hz quite rather easily -- but IPS tech is speeding up surprisingly enough.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Kamen Rider Blade
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 22:56

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by Kamen Rider Blade » 26 Jul 2021, 01:30

Seriously, they couldn't spare an extra 20 Hz and get us exactly to 500 Hz?

Come on!

User avatar
speancer
Posts: 241
Joined: 03 May 2020, 04:26
Location: EU

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by speancer » 26 Jul 2021, 14:17

Just FYI, there's a major mistake in this Tom's Hardware article you linked:

"Today's ultra-high-performance 360Hz displays use a TN panel, though the brand new 390 Hz LCDs use AUO's AHVA (IPS-like) panels."

All 360 Hz monitors are IPS, not TN. That's quite an embarrassing mistake :roll: Also, there's only ONE 390 Hz monitor currently, Acer Nitro XV252QF (also known as Aopen).

Anyway, it's cool to see things are moving forward. The sooner we get to 1000 Hz @ 1000 fps gaming, the better 8-)
Main display (TV/PC monitor): LG 42C21LA (4K 120 Hz OLED / WBE panel)
Tested displays: ASUS VG259QM/VG279QM [favourite LCD FPS display] (280 Hz IPS) • Zowie XL2546K/XL2540K/XL2546 (240 Hz TN DyAc) • Dell S3222DGM [favourite LCD display for the best blacks, contrast and panel uniformity] (165 Hz VA) • Dell Alienware AW2521HFLA (240 Hz IPS) • HP Omen X 25f (240 Hz TN) • MSI MAG251RX (240 Hz IPS) • Gigabyte M27Q (170 Hz IPS) • Acer Predator XB273X (240 Hz IPS G-SYNC) • Acer Predator XB271HU (165 Hz IPS G-SYNC) • Acer Nitro XV272UKV (170 Hz IPS) • Acer Nitro XV252QF (390 Hz IPS) • LG 27GN800 (144 Hz IPS) • LG 27GL850 (144 Hz nanoIPS) • LG 27GP850 (180 Hz nanoIPS) • Samsung Odyssey G7 (240 Hz VA)

OS: Windows 11 Pro GPU: Palit GeForce RTX 4090 GameRock OC CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D + be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 + Arctic MX-6 RAM: 32GB (2x16GB dual channel) DDR5 Kingston Fury Beast Black 6000 MHz CL30 (fully optimized primary and secondary timings by Buildzoid for SK Hynix die on AM5 platform) PSU: Corsair RM1200x SHIFT 1200W (ATX 3.0, PCIe 5.0 12VHPWR 600W) SSD1: Kingston KC3000 1TB NVMe PCIe 4.0 x4 SSD2: Corsair Force MP510 960GB PCIe 3.0 x4 MB: ASUS ROG STRIX X670E-A GAMING WIFI (GPU PCIe 5.0 x16, NVMe PCIe 5.0 x4) CASE: be quiet! Silent Base 802 Window White CASE FANS: be quiet! Silent Wings 4 140mm PWM (3x front, 1x rear, 1x top rear, positive pressure) MOUSE: Logitech G PRO X Superlight (white) Lightspeed wireless MOUSEPAD: ARTISAN FX HIEN (wine red, soft, XL) KEYBOARD: Logitech G915 TKL (white, GL Tactile) Lightspeed wireless HEADPHONES: Sennheiser Momentum 4 Wireless (white) 24-bit 96 KHz + Sennheiser BTD600 Bluetooth 5.2 aptX Adaptive CHAIR: Herman Miller Aeron (graphite, fully loaded, size C)

jasswolf
Posts: 68
Joined: 23 Jan 2020, 05:09

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by jasswolf » 27 Jul 2021, 07:01

The wording of the AUO roadmap suggests all those new cutting edge options will be IPS, which is a little disappointing, but FHD 360Hz TN is good news.

The return to zero trailing on IPS is the most glaring technical issue at the bleeding edge of LCD technology currently, at least as far as fast motion content is concerned.

One has to wonder how long before we're looking at 240Hz or even 360Hz OLED with BFI... even 120Hz BFI is fantastic on OLED.

MCLV
Posts: 43
Joined: 04 Mar 2021, 15:04

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by MCLV » 28 Jul 2021, 01:18

I'm really glad that manufacturers are planning products according to the roadmap which I presented here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3761&start=10#p67030 :lol:

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 28 Jul 2021, 19:30

Yes, 1000 Hz LCDs by year 2030s.

Some manufacturers have already masterplanned 1000Hz (And publicly acknowledged as such), thanks in part to Blur Busters' advocacy/urging.

Many thought LCD was not fast enough, but there's many paths forward (e.g. Blue Phase LCDs with microsecond GtG), but there's still room left to tweak IPS / TN before a new LCD architecture or ultra-high-Hz OLED blackplane
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Kamen Rider Blade
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 22:56

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by Kamen Rider Blade » 29 Jul 2021, 12:18

I still want some panel maker to go back and work on SED Panel tech.

I believe that SED was the true successor to CRT's Cathode Ray Tube tech and has a far higher level to grow.

User avatar
BTRY B 529th FA BN
Posts: 524
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 13:28

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by BTRY B 529th FA BN » 29 Jul 2021, 12:40

What are the performance metrics for panels, refresh rate, pixel response time, what else? IIRC with CRT it was only the Hz that was the limiting factor/metric

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: 480 hz monitors by 2023?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 30 Jul 2021, 00:06

BTRY B 529th FA BN wrote:
29 Jul 2021, 12:40
What are the performance metrics for panels, refresh rate, pixel response time, what else? IIRC with CRT it was only the Hz that was the limiting factor/metric
For some of them, check out Blur Busters Area 51 Articles Portal, particularly the 1000Hz article and GtG-vs-MPRT.

CRT had more limiting metrics including analog bandwidth (horizontal scanrate) which influenced horizontal analog blur at higher refresh rates. And phosphor, which influenced CRT ghosting (e.g. green ghosting on black backgrounds).

Today, certain cherrypicked LCDs now have less motion blur than CRT (e.g. Oculus Quest 2 VR LCDs). A few LCDs now can completely hide GtG in VBI (blanking intervals between refresh cycles), completely eliminating strobe crosstalk perfectly on some panels like the Quest 2 VR LCD, or the Index VR LCDs. Quest 2 uses a 0.3ms pulse width (0.3ms MPRT).

Some newer LCD panels such as ViewSonic XG2431 with Vertical Total 4500 at 60Hz, can go completely crosstalk-free for the full screen height. This is the refresh rate headroom trick + large vertical totals to improve strobe quality. That’s why 120Hz strobing is better quality on 240Hz LCDs than 144Hz LCDs; more time to hide LCD GtG between refresh cycles!

Once GtG is completely out of the human visibility equation, LCD has unlimited motion clarity, controlled solely by pulse width (and the speed of the phosphor in the LED of the backlight; some are slow like KSF phosphor — www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor ….)

Once GtG=gone/invisible, understanding strobed LCD motion blur is simply a function of pixel visiblity time (strobe pulse width). A 0.5ms flash is only 1 pixel of motion blur for 2000 pixels/sec panning. And with enough backlight overvoltage boosting, you can keep it fairly bright. The motion blur mathematics is beautifully simple if you study the Area 51 articles closely.

Once GtG=gone/invisible (GtG100% made fast enough to be completely hidden between refresh cycles), CRT vs LCD is much more alike in certain respects; LCD strobe backlight pulse width is like an adjustable phosphor — that’s why Blur Busters Strobe Utility turns some strobed LCDs into an adjustable-persistence display (instantly changing from short-persistence CRT to medium-persistence CRT to long-persistence CRT, simply by changing on-screen settings!).

Although CRT phosphor fade is more like a sawtooth on an oscilloscope, and strobe backlight operation is more like squarewave on an oscillscope. Which means the flicker may look a bit different, but fundamentally, motion blur / ghosting for both CRT/LCD is just simply a function of pixel visibility time. That said, the sawtooth (fast rise, slow fall) means more motion blur on the TRAILING edge of CRT Motion — aka that famous green ghosting of white objects on black backgrounds. That’s CRT Motion blur (aka CRT ghosting)

Also, I can get motion blur on a CRT with slower phosphors with fast enough motion — remember radar CRTs? Computer monitors just ghosts on a smaller scale. Just the shor-persistence phosphors fade fast and we don’t notice the CRT Motion blur at 320x200 VGA, you need high resolution AND fast motion, to see ghosting/motionblur on a CRT much more easily.

Remember the Vicious Cycle Effect (higher resolution amplifies visibility of motion blur). CRTs just were often too low resolution to allow us to see its imperceptible motion blur, but it was still there (in small amounts), depending on what the phosphor was.

Anyway, the relationship of CRT and LCD is an overlapping venn diagram that is easy for my brain to understand, especially when science removes LCD GtG from the human-visibility equation, making it easier to compare CRT vs strobed LCD motion blur symmetries from persistence (CRT phosphor persistence versus LCD strobe backlight pulse width). Unlike CRTs phosphor which was not adjustable persistence, LCD strobe backlight persistence is adjustable via the “Pulse Width” setting, turning good strobed LCDs into motion-look equivalents variable-persistence CRTs.

Mind you, things like stutter and strobe crosstalk makes it hard to compare, so you want frameerate=Hz, and lower refresh rate to match GPU frame rate, then strobing looks more identical to CRT, then fix your quality via Strobe Utility as much as possible (plus Vertical Totals to make it easier to hide LCD GtG in VBI), then you play with persistence setting via Pulse Width, and you get LCD motion even more similar to a CRT of similar persistence as the pulse width.

_________________________

Now, if you’re asking about tech progress limitations for LCD towards 1000Hz. Well, LCDs are rotating liquid crystal molecules inside a glass sandwich. It’s molecular momentum. You need to send power over a tiny microwire grid to send electric power to a LCD pixel, to cause those molecules to rotate partially to act as a light valve (block/unblock light) to generate those various shades of greys.

Faster GtG means rotating the molecules faster in a liquid crystal display, and that requires things like higher voltages or other tricks to get more power to the LCD, and/or lower friction for the LCD molecules, and/or better polarizers to amplify the visibility of weak molecular rotations, and/or better thin-film-transistors to amplify the power of a weak microwire grid signal (thousands of vertical and horizontal wires control every single LCD pixel).

You have to actually move real molecules (aka momentum = laws of physics) to block/unblock light in a liquid crystal display (l.C.D.), and speeding this up is often challenging, with lower-friction molecules at higher voltages with better signal amplification for ultra tiny pixels tinier than your eye can see. Every single LCD pixel have a tiny micro wire into them from the wire grid in a row/column grid.

Image

Once upon a time, our pixel response was literally 50ms, then 33ms, then 16ms, then 8ms, and so on, and now we’re reaching sub-1ms for certain colors but the pixel response speed is the VESA standard from 10% to 90%:

Image

You can read more about this kind of thing in Pixel Response FAQ and its links to the original sources / science citations.

Speeding this up is a lot of things:
- Faster scalers/TCONs (often FPGAs) to refresh pixels faster, one at a time.
- Better panel fabrication that:
…sends more power at higher voltages to pixels
…refreshes multiple pixels at the same time (it’s not possible to refresh all at same time)
…lowers friction of the liquid crystal molecule rotations
…improved polarizers that amplify contrast of very weak molecular rotations, so we can raise Hz without reducing contrast.

GtG is like kicking soccer balls, one at a time. You can give each pixel a running start and kick pixels harder, but it takes more time to kick each pixel. Or you can rush and kick multiple soccer balls one-after-other faster, but you won’t be able to kick each of them as hard. The same problem happens to LCD pixels

…The refreshing electronics need a finite time per pixel
the more finite time to voltage KICK a pixel harder (faster GtG)

…The refreshing electronics can’t refresh all pixels at same time
the higher the resolution, the harder it is to kick all pixels to a fast GtG

These diametrically opposing goals make it extremely hard to increase Hz on LCD while ALSO having simultaneously fast GtG>. That’s why LCD GtG sometimes goes slower during LCD overclocking: Less time per pixel. It starts to smear like an old 33ms 60Hz LCD where GtG took multiple refresh cycles to finish (like doing more than 1 kick of the same soccer ball to get to the other goal line).

Faster LCDs are simply a game of optimization, and it’s frankly incredible we now have 360Hz 1ms HD IPS LCDs today (and 240Hz 4K LCDs / 360Hz 1440p LCDs / 480Hz 1080p LCDs coming). Where a mere 25 years ago we only had 50ms 60Hz LCDs at SVGA and XGA resolutions.

Remember, 1080p is a hellish number of soccer balls to kick 360 times a second apiece (more than 2 BILLION soccer balls to kick, when counting EVERY subpixel), compared to SVGA.

It’s not possible to refresh all pixels of an LCD simultaneously (see high speed videos at www.blurbusters.com/scanout …) so we can only refresh a few pixels at a time, depending on how many channels the LCD has.

The good news is the industry has multiple engineering paths to 1000Hz+ sub-1ms-GtG LCDs.

With such shockingly short sample-and-hold persistence, strobing can become obsolete. Have cake and eat it too with flickerfree AND blurless. We can get 1000fps 1000Hz (1ms pixel visibility time per frame) strobelessly with the same motion blur of a 60Hz crt with 1ms phosphor (1ms pixel visibility time per refresh cycle). No dark time between frame visibility time anymore, creating low persistence sample and hold which look much more identical to real-world analog motion (real world doesn’t strobe, real world doesn’t flicker), where all remaining motion blur is caused by the human eye/brain and not caused by display limitations.

Now, full circle back, 1000Hz — alas — is not even the final frontier. Getting 0.3ms MPRT of an Oculus Quest 2 VR LCD (0.3ms flashes) will require 3333fps at 3333Hz to do strobelessly (3333 x 0.3 = 1 second of continuous visibility with no dark time in between pixel visibility = aka no flicker, no strobe).

Be noted, due to the Vicious Cycle Effect (linked above), it is probably not worthwhile to go above about 500-1000Hz on retina mobile phones, above ~2000-4000Hz on 24” retina desktop displays, or above ~10,000-20,000 Hz on retina VR displays — since seeing sample-and-hold limitations is a function of resolution and FOV, versus your fastest reliable eye-tracking speed — as seen in The Stroboscopic Effect of Finite Frame Rates as well as 1000 Hz Journey articles.

This is a BIG rabbit hole to dive in!
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

Post Reply