JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

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Joel D
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by Joel D » 27 Sep 2020, 13:20

Interesting info !

Hope either the small OLED comes out asap (even though I hate Samsung, as their tv's and screens and products in general always been garbage to me) or Mini/MicroLED needs to hurry up and come out. But either way these guys need to pull their head out of their a$$es a little sooner and quit worrying about the politics and fake high price needs and make the best technology and release it for decent prices cause I know they can. They MILKING it. And that needs to stop.

Value of anything on planet earth is actually just perceived value. Nothing is actual

jasswolf
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by jasswolf » 29 Sep 2020, 09:15

In terms of monitors, the progression path for many aiming for high refresh rate and high contrast might just be:

Samsung G7 (or another model using its panel) @ 240Hz
4K/8K QNED @ 240-480 Hz
8K MicroLED @ 480-1000Hz

If you want proper HDR ahead of QNED, just look at OLED TVs or maybe a QD-OLED monitor in 2021-2022, because I don't think anything else is going to be reasonable until modular panels are more of a thing. Inkjet-printed OLED tech could be a game changer, but the longevity seems to be a worry, both in terms of the diodes and its competitiveness against QNED.

Joel D
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by Joel D » 29 Sep 2020, 15:12

jasswolf wrote:
29 Sep 2020, 09:15
In terms of monitors, the progression path for many aiming for high refresh rate and high contrast might just be:

Samsung G7 (or another model using its panel) @ 240Hz
4K/8K QNED @ 240-480 Hz
8K MicroLED @ 480-1000Hz

If you want proper HDR ahead of QNED, just look at OLED TVs or maybe a QD-OLED monitor in 2021-2022, because I don't think anything else is going to be reasonable until modular panels are more of a thing. Inkjet-printed OLED tech could be a game changer, but the longevity seems to be a worry, both in terms of the diodes and its competitiveness against QNED.
Thanks for the input on this. I do look for OLED Tv's cause imo so far, those are the best screens visually that I've seen outside of the Panasonic VT-50 plasma Tv a decade ago. The issue is, they don't make them at 32" yet. Which is so frustrating.

That said, what is: "a QD-OLED monitor in 2021-2022" ? These are a for sure thing ? Sure I will wait, that's right around the corner. As long as its worth it. Meanwhile I can maybe get a VA panel monitor to hold me off. They are a better visual picture than IPS right ? (if not worried about angle viewing)

jasswolf
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by jasswolf » 30 Sep 2020, 06:27

Joel D wrote:
29 Sep 2020, 15:12
jasswolf wrote:
29 Sep 2020, 09:15
In terms of monitors, the progression path for many aiming for high refresh rate and high contrast might just be:

Samsung G7 (or another model using its panel) @ 240Hz
4K/8K QNED @ 240-480 Hz
8K MicroLED @ 480-1000Hz

If you want proper HDR ahead of QNED, just look at OLED TVs or maybe a QD-OLED monitor in 2021-2022, because I don't think anything else is going to be reasonable until modular panels are more of a thing. Inkjet-printed OLED tech could be a game changer, but the longevity seems to be a worry, both in terms of the diodes and its competitiveness against QNED.
Thanks for the input on this. I do look for OLED Tv's cause imo so far, those are the best screens visually that I've seen outside of the Panasonic VT-50 plasma Tv a decade ago. The issue is, they don't make them at 32" yet. Which is so frustrating.

That said, what is: "a QD-OLED monitor in 2021-2022" ? These are a for sure thing ? Sure I will wait, that's right around the corner. As long as its worth it. Meanwhile I can maybe get a VA panel monitor to hold me off. They are a better visual picture than IPS right ? (if not worried about angle viewing)
It's not for certain yet, Samsung are exploring the possibility though depending on how much cheaper their manufacturing costs get.

life_at_1ms
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by life_at_1ms » 21 Dec 2020, 10:03

Are there are zero OLED or MicroLED 120+hz laptop displays? Couldn't find any...

Futuretech
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by Futuretech » 21 Dec 2020, 16:27

life_at_1ms wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 10:03
Are there are zero OLED or MicroLED 120+hz laptop displays? Couldn't find any...
While there has been some OLED products released or more specifically unreleased. Basically engineering samples for potential future products.

The reality is OLED is mostly a TV-Tech at this point. Yes there are companies working on computer products but that isn't the priority as much as TV. I guess the profits are found on TV. Sure you can argue PC has gotten bigger within the framework of CoViD-19 but Non the less these companies focus on the TV market.

Same with Mini/Micro LED. Sure it would be spectacular to have Micro-LED on the PC especially if they build'em right properly for PC advantage. But I bet it's gonna be more of a TV thing rather than a PC thing.

No idea why BTW @La1ms just because OLED to a lesser but non-the less strong degree and Micro-LED to a stronger higher degree are replacing LCD. Don't be surprised if LCD gets milked for a few more decades.

It reminded me of a person I believe on Anandtech who mentioned. LCD is the communism of technology no matter how many times we try and kill it, it keeps popping back up in some cases even better than before. Current LCDs are certainly top dog compared to LCDs of even just 5 years ago when the major high refresh-rate revolution occurred.

I believe that's also another factor on why OLED/Mini-LED/Micro-LED and whatnot have not propagated more. The companies want 60Hz for everyone and slowly ratchet up the costs for higher refresh rates. Obviously they can't do that cause people demand higher refresh rates so they just slowly introduce this technology to milk as much R&D profits as possible.

The reality is I think OLED/Mini-LED/Micro-LED revolution was supposed to start sometime within this year next two or three years nearing mid-2020s. But because of the internet, theorycrafting, review sites, and this website. Things haven't materialized the way companies have wanted it. It's almost as if by MAGIC that we are receiving higher quality products maybe 5-10 years sooner. I know some people are gonna say OLED popped up sometime nearly 20 years ago yeah but look at all the stuff being done in the last 5 years.

Anyways I went off-topic but you won't find OLED products in said levels for another 2 or 3 years probably. Unless we get surprised sometime next year. If companies had their way you'd probably wont find OLED products till at least mid-2020s like laptops for example. Anyways just keep watch maybe 2021 surprises us.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Dec 2020, 18:13

I think the LCD horse is here for a few decades, competing with OLEDs and MicroLEDs.
(Especially with future blue-phase LCDs capable of microsecond response times).

Also, VR LCDs have massively less motion blur than VR OLEDs.

Some new VR LCDs manage GtG100% and MPRT100% (and real-world 0.3ms MPRT) between refresh cycles, with zero strobe crosstalk for top/center/bottom edges. I'm jawdropped about how good VR LCDs have become, and wish they become available with 10,000+ QD LED FALD wide-gamut scanning backlights for desktop monitors, for better-than-OLED.

I'd like to see cheap Full Array Local Dimming (FALD) to happen. With over 10,000 LEDs. With blooming smaller than the CRT beam phosphor dot. In sub-$1000 panels. Someday.

Here is a crosspost of something I posted on HardForums recently about virtual reality headsets:
Chief Blur Buster wrote:...Blacks are very good for horror games. For many, it may be preferable over other OLED artifacts.

However, the new LCD VR has higher resolution and less motion blur, so many others prefer that too. Quest 2 has virtually no screendoor effect, and its deliciously perfect zero strobe crosstalk (some incredible LCD engineering there!). And there's no human-detectable motion blur even during fast head turns, thanks to the current LCD VR having about 1/6th the motion blur of OLED VR at the moment.

As you already know, Blur Busters works with display manufacturers from time to time, so I can give you some inside information on why OLED has become problematic for VR.

This is because the LCD backlight flashes six times quicker (0.3ms flash backlight) versus the OLED pixels flashing for 2ms flash. The problem with direct-flashing of OLED pixels is large degradation in black noises/speckle the briefer you try to direct-flash an OLED pixel for. The shorter you try to flash an OLED pixel for, the worse the noise/speckle in darks become -- so 2ms was a compromise (and speckle is still visible).

In low-persistence engineering, LED / OLED speckle is a major problem for the bottom end of dynamic range during low persistence operation of an OLED -- and VR is aggressively pushing motion clarity requirements. There is a very dastardly vicious cycle effect (higher resolution & wider FOV & higher refresh rates = amplifies visibility of motion blur = 0.5ms MPRT versus 1.0ms MPRT is now human-visible when we're entering the leagues of strobed 4K VR displays). The way higher resolutions amplify the needs of motion clarity, is a huge driver of needing sub-1ms-MPRT for virtual reality headsets, and only the new LCD VR headsets (Index, Rift S, Quest 2) are doing a stellar job honest real-world measured sub-1ms-MPRT (non-fake).

Unfortunately, a law-of-physics effect called Talbot-Plateau Law (need to strobe brighter briefer) is causing major problems with low-persistence OLED.

Trying to brighten the OLED and flash it briefer -- also unfortunately brightens the speckle effect (the noisy-OLED effect during dark situations) every time we try to improve MPRT with an OLED (without using low-persistence sample-and-hold). Also, OLED GtG (0.1ms) starts becoming a significant percentage of a OLED low persistence (2ms). Whereas, the backlight flash is completely decoupled from LCD GtG (which can simply be hidden in the total darkness between refresh cycles). As long as you get GtG100% perfect between refresh cycles, LCD has no bottom limit to motion clarity -- it can be infinitely clear (e.g. 0.001 microsecond flash, if such a backlight existed). Surprisingly, LCD VR LCD motion clarity now currently beats CRT motion clarity, and Quest 2 is now being used with Virtual Desktop to emulate a 60 Hz CRT; running MAME or RetroArch on a floating virtual monitor (or virtual monitor sitting on virtual desk) while wearing Quest 2.

TODAY:
As already shipping in Index / Quest 2 / Rift S -- the Talbot-Plateau law is less of a barrier with LCD (outsourced light) than OLED (tiny pixels), since it's easier to design a heatsinked/watercooled LCD backlight that can flash stadium-bright like a CRT electron beam, to compensate for the briefness of low-persistence. This is hard to do directly with OLED pixels without degradations and extra speckle/noise in blacks.

FUTURE:
The good news is I saw a FALD VR prototype so LCD VR will have perfect blacks come ~2025. As long as it's backlit by at least 10,000 LEDs to 50,000 LEDs (or even 100,000), the bloom will be a nonissue. Historically FALD was scarily expensive, but prices will fall fast on MicroLED / MiniLED panels. It will probably follow a commoditization path much like 32x32 Jumbotron LED panels are under $10 off Alibaba -- that's 1024 RGB LEDs matrixes for under a penny per LED -- places like Alibaba https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/32x32-led-matrix.htm

So FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) isn't necessarily expensive forever, even for VR headests. Probably Valve Index 2 will use them, come 2022-2023, maybe even as early as 2021. Hopefully CES 2021 will announcd FALD VR headsets, but that might not happen till CES 2022 due to COVID. It might be less than 10,000 LED FALD, but it's a start once FALD VR comes out.

It might not be until a few iterations later where FALD VR is cheap enough to arrive in a future Quest (maybe Quest 4 in 2025?) since Quest is hitting the low-cost VR market (and doing a stellar job at it). FALD LCD VR will be initially a premium feature. So, I think a theoretical future Valve Index 2 would probably do FALD VR first. Also, it would be neat if Index 2 has a "Lighthouses-optional" mode of operation. In other words, having both inside-out tracking and sensor-tracking modes of operation. Easy setup by making Lighthouses optional, with optional accuracy-improvements (for controllers-behind-back operations, etc).

Longer term, direct-view MicroLEDs will be superior to both OLED and LCD, but trying to have 33 million LEDs in an 8K VR headset headset is a bit unobtainium. It's MUCH easier to have a 1-million-LED monochrome MicroLED backlight driving ultra-fast-switch LCD that's successfully strobe-tuned to GtG100% perfection for the entire 256x256 GtG heatmap or 1024x1024 GtG heatmap.

Now, if "low-persistence sample-and-hold" (1000fps+ on 1000Hz+) arrives to OLED, it solves the speckle problem overnight. Ultra high framerate OLED would do a really stunning job of blacks (much more speckle-free blacks than today). However, it will be quite a while before 1000fps 1000Hz becomes a reality, so for now we'll need low-persistence via strobing for now.

(P.S. Those lovely GtG heatmaps you see on HardwareUnboxed or ApertureGrille or RTINGS? Those are actually puny to what I bet John Carmack did -- i.e. ordering a massive GtG heatmapping & tuning the LCD VR panels did -- figuratively, imagine a spreadsheet of over 65000 GtG values with every single GtG value tuned. Every single GtG value of them fixed in Quest 2 at faster than a refresh cycle, with strobe flash perfectly timed as the pixels pass the exact GtG value desired. John Carmack magic. It's an engineer standing ovation. Imagine a 65,536 square HardwareUnboxed GtG heatmap with every square GtG100% virtually perfect at strobe time). The main flaw of that Quest 2 LCD is it's not backlit by a >100,000-LED-element-count FALD MicroLED panel, bloomfree and perfect blacks.)

_____

Knowledge is power; understanding how display motion blur helps understand the state of OLED VR technology and LCD VR technology. So even the peripheral topic helps educate, LCD VR versus OLED VR, and how different strobe flash lengths affects display motion blur -- is quite useful in understanding the pros/cons. Necessarily, talking about display motion blur, creates necessary topic sidetracks (why strobing/flicker is currently necessary for VR, because of the impossibility of the refresh rates necessary to fix motion blur strobelessly). I do go above-and-beyond to educate people about how display motion blur physics works -- but my topic sidetracks are (usually) generally well-loved by advanced users. Some people cannot use VR because the person is too flicker-sensitive. Also, display motion blur is extra blur forced on you above-and-beyond your natural human limitations. Holodeck should perfectly match real life. Bottom line, dsplay motion blur is unwanted extra motion blur above-and-beyond real life, which VR is attempting to simulate.

So, today, if your #1 priority is OLED blacks at high resolution -- buy a very good OLED headset such as HTC Vive Pro.

If your #1 priority is motion clarity, then modern LCD VR is superior -- Valve Index, Rift S, Quest 2

If you want excellent ease-of-use thrown in too, then the answer is a no-brainer (if you can tolerate Facebook) -- Quest 2
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

elexor
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by elexor » 21 Dec 2020, 22:01

I noticed the quest 1 has some crosstalk when you play nes games with light color backgrounds not sure why that is being oled.

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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Dec 2020, 00:39

elexor wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 22:01
I noticed the quest 1 has some crosstalk when you play nes games with light color backgrounds not sure why that is being oled.
iPhone X has it too when you view www.testufo.com/crosstalk
(And view that in the Quest in-VR browser which is 100% TestUFO compatible!)

This is not strobe crosstalk, but a GtG incompleteness behavior of OLED (0.1ms GtG to a nearly-correct color) which is made 'complete' in the next refresh cycle pass. This happens more often for fully saturated colors combined with black.

Yes, OLED Quest 1 has more ghosting than LCD Quest 2.

It's amazing how LCD can be more artifact-free than OLED is, at least when it comes to VR LCDs. The only thing missing is imperfect blacks & less deep color gamut, but those two are fixable for future LCDs that are better-than-OLED.

LCD remains a longtime horse in the refresh rate race, although retina refresh rates (low-persistence sample-and-hold) may very well be OLED or MicroLED, which can theoretically still be superior to LCD. However, for strobed VR, LCD has definitely beat the OLED horse in motion clarity, and the current new VR LCDs now have less motion blur than either OLED and CRTs.

Quest 2 has zero strobe crosstalk for top/center/bottom. All the newer VR LCDs are some of the most impressive LCD strobing I've seen. I now recommend it as a gaming monitor by using them with Virtual Desktop (put a virtual monitor on a virtual desk -- or just floating in space), since wearing a Quest 2 is sometimes superior to purchasing a gaming monitor, if you love CRTs or strobe-backlight LCD gaming monitors. The 'enhanced' Virtual Desktop via SideQuest has the ability to support strobed refresh rates from 60 Hz through 90 Hz, emulating a 60 to 90 Hz CRT, perfect for playing emulators or games at framerate=Hz. Quest 2 (almost 4K) has more than enough resolution to accurately show the resolution of a simulated 1080p display that outperforms a FW900 CRT tube monitor.

Admittedly, I am getting offtopic, but I'm continuously impressed how LCD keeps repeatedly edging ahead of OLED. Nontheless, I'd like to see 240 Hz OLEDs arrive eventually!
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

elexor
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Re: JOLED to develop high-end OLED gaming monitors

Post by elexor » 22 Dec 2020, 10:29

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Dec 2020, 00:39

Admittedly, I am getting offtopic, but I'm continuously impressed how LCD keeps repeatedly edging ahead of OLED. Nontheless, I'd like to see 240 Hz OLEDs arrive eventually!
Yeah I'm impressed by the strobe quality of 60hz lcd's so close to zero crosstalk it's not funny at 1080p you can see individual pixels as clear as day with 1ms strobes.

Also I have been experimenting with 240hz 60hz strobing and i swear it helps with strobe quality could scanning out 4 times help with pixel response? or maybe total response.

Only thing about strobed lcd is the input lag it adds a fair bit. buffering 60hz input and long blanking periods.

The cx oleds are 240hz panels how else could they do 120hz bfi. I'm sure they are capable of a 1080p240hz mode but LG probably wants to save this feature so people will have a reason to buy next years model with the same panel.

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