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Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby stoogie » 25 May 2019, 05:34

Hi chief! my thread got hijacked but thats ok, I hope you can still help me

update on my vertical inversion artifacts

So for some reason when I load a 3d application lets say 'Don't Starve' regardless if full screen on not, and I stay in the main menu of don't starve the vertical inversion artifacts are visible on static image the same severity as the worst in motion, but the thing is you see this by moving your head from perfectly still to even more the more you move your head, its really bad visually and easily detectable when you move your head while viewing a static image, I can even put other windows on top of it like steam window with it in the background and still see the lines over steam. If i exit the game and go to desktop then they disappear when i try moving my head around again.

basically something changes when the monitor gets a 3d signal from a rtx 2080 and causes the already motion artifacts on desktop to go reallllly bad by you moving your head.

Now i had a xb272 before this and it had no inversion lines or anything 0% brightness change in lines, this one is aroudn 40%+ change in lines, I also had a pg278q in 2015 which had only visible lines on static teal/grey color with mouse over and head certain distance following cursor going back and forth at a specific speed, it was very very minimal circumstance yet asus still paid for the shipping on return and replaced the monitor or its panel with another one that didnt have that issue absolutely free at 2.5 years date of the 3 year warranty. If asus fully commits its warranty for a small version of this why wouldn't dell or rather dell should be forced too.

There should be rules in regards to this and manufacturers and engineers should make the monitors so they dont show vertical inversion artifacts on TN's like the pg278q or xb272, if they can do it why cant dell? It's not impossible.
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 25 May 2019, 12:37

1000WATT wrote:Photos of the previous message were taken from 1440p 165hz ips pg279q. And here I have cognitive dissonance.
but I do not understand "monitor that currently has zero inversion artifacts".


Zero inversion artifacts in regular games, and when watching http://www.testufo.com/inversion

And no checkerboard pixel textures seen in moving UFOs in non-ULMB mode (they are very blatantly visible on some TN panels).

But you're right, what you posted is a different kind of inversion artifact, that, unfortunately, did show up. Interesting, I had not tested for that particular inversion artifact.

I may have to expand TestUFO inversion to cover more inversion-artifact tests (including the other pixel patterns that I already know of, including several that match the ones also shown on Lagom too.)

Nontheless, inversion artifacts that show up in regular videogaming are the most annoying kind -- the horizontal leakage is a much rarer-seen kind of inversion artifact that usually requires intentional action to make appear.

There are many multiple different inversion artifacts:
- Texturing artifacts seen in bright colors ("half-resolution" look, "grainy-image" look, 1-pixel checkerboard, 1-pixel vertical lines, 1-pixel horizontal lines)
- Motion artifacts (inversion artifacts seen in motion only, or during the act of a varying refresh rate)
- Leakage artifacts (horizontal/vertical streaking adjacent to inversion test patterns)
- Discoloration artifacts (Common colors are purple tinting/green tinting in moving inversion test patterns)
- Image retention (when using software BFI which may accidentally interfere with the voltage-balancing behaviour of inversion)

Creating a test that tests for all possible inversion artifacts is extremely difficult, especially for monitors that have half-intelligent adaptive inversion (that is sometimes defeatable, and sometimes not). But current tests can be significantly improved.

___

About standards:

Standards on defective inversion is a good idea. Unfortunately that's somewhat hard to define. The worst <1% of units that have 5x-more-visible inversion artifacts certainly are RMA material. But in many cases, particularly-visible inversion is norm for some specific panels from specific panel manufacturers with specific scaler hardware. Some mitigations can be done in firmware (e.g. adaptive inversion that changes the voltage polarity pattern/sequence to avoid on-screen material that intentionally cause a voltage imbalance) but ultimately can be in the panel, panel lottery, electronics quality to mitigate further.

Also, temperature has an effect -- colder panels versus warmed-up panels -- can have different inversion-artifact intensities.

Perhaps Blur Busters will need to think of creating an Inversion Artifacts standard for manufacturers -- but inversion-artifacts policy is indeed a tricky matter since there's no easy way to determine thresholds as it is for dead-pixel policies.
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby stoogie » 25 May 2019, 19:08

I think the issue with AW2518HF is that its a freesync version that uses the cheapest possible parts which increases the risks for these artifacts, and the fact that it is applied to the 24.5" panel that was never set to run at 240hz but forced too, that and panel lottery.

Also the reason why gsync module ones dont show this is probably because they use more quality expensive parts in the gsync module(also are tweaked more accurately hence the cost) which gives a less of a chance to see these artifacts also the xb272 uses a 27" panel which is different from the auo 24.5" one that all other 240hz monitors use.

But yes I agree there should be measurable standards instead of case by case basis, because as a buyer you don't want to buy one of these monitors without knowing about vertical inversion lines yet get one that has it, if you knew it had it in the first place you would have never bought it.
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 27 May 2019, 14:07

"Vertical Inversion" is a misnomer -- It's just "inversion artifact"

The meanings of "inversion" (an algorithm) AND "inversion artifact" (a visible side effect) are very different.

Inversion == A voltage-switching algorithm an LCD does to prevent burn-in. Normally invisible or near-invisible.
Inversion artifact == Visible artifacts caused by the inversion algorithm.

Inversion artifacts can show in different shapes on different monitors: Vertical lines, horizontal lines, and chessboard-texture patterns.

Yes, most NVIDIA GSYNC-module displays seem to have much less inversion artifacts than the average TN panel. Another bonus of the GSYNC premium!

That said, if you're looking for low-inversion-artifacts 240Hz FreeSync, I've been liking the ViewSonic XG2530. Not all 25" (24.5") panels have lots of inversion artifacts, sometimes the electronics do a good job of avoiding inversion artifacts. Very pleasing on the eyes in its lack of inversion artifacts. No motion blur reduction mode, though.
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby stoogie » 27 May 2019, 20:20

ViewSonic XG2530 is discontinued and not available anywhere in Australia,(also heard when it released it had frameskipping at 240hz)
I decided to go back to my slightly bleedy pg279q 165hz
I will be now waiting for 1440p 240hz monitors starting with the lenovo legion y27gq when it releases as it should have already as I keep getting badluck with these cheaper non gsync 1080p 240hz ones.

Also with dont starve it forces 60hz, and because of the art and colors and speed you walk including the main menu(play exit) which makes artifacts show on static images, maybe using dont starve as a first game to test artifacting a good start? If you was going to make something like that in the future or just curious how that game makes them visible.
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 28 May 2019, 09:55

stoogie wrote:ViewSonic XG2530 is discontinued and not available anywhere in Australia,(also heard when it released it had frameskipping at 240hz)

Damn, discontinued in Australia?

It's not discontinued in other countries, and it was only the first firmware that had frameskipping -- they fixed that pretty fast, thanks to my help.
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       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby stoogie » 28 May 2019, 20:29

Yes it stopped selling quite a long time ago, I also read your posts on how to edit out the frameskipping with the vertical line timings or whatever, I'm glad there are people like you to criticize engineers and correct them for any type of fault. Someone has to do it and it shouldn't be up to a common uneducated/employed consumer to do so. I could buy one but its rare to find and when you do it costs 1.5-2x more than current release 240hz ones so its not worth it.
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby stoogie » 15 Jun 2019, 03:23

(update)Sent last message to dell support, if u want to read about how some have the issue:

Hi Devia last reply, i ordered a asus xg258q as they clearing out for the new 0.5ms panels so was only $529, its not a gsync version.
The static vertical inversion on this one is about 20% less on the quebec city 120 pixels/sec blurbuster test
https://www.testufo.com/photo#photo=que ... 0&height=0


When testing in games there is no pulsating or change of the vertical lines meaning i cant see them and its fine and i love it.

Doing the most severe test using dont starve together, on play/exit menu moving my head I see nothing, in game moving at any speed I see nothing. So yes its fine I love it.

So with your aw2518f(that failed games and especially dont starve together) the module that regulates voltage when receiving information of a 3d application running(or how it alters the signal) the voltage regulation of the vertical line alternations pulsate and changes causing massive visible artifacts on menu when u move your head and speed dependent walking around.

If that helps your engineers fix the problem and not use the same settings/module parts/whatever for newer version of your monitor and/or gives you more testing methodologies then I hope it helps because I loved the design of your monitor and dont want to see you guys have monitors that suffer from this problem while other brands do not.

If you could forward this to engineers somehow that would help a lot but I have my doubts.

Anyway thankyou for your time Devia.
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Re: Can I edit to fix vertical inversion? Alienware AW2518HF

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 20 Jun 2019, 19:30

Heads up...

There is a need for clear terminology.
"Vertical inversion" is unclear terminology;

"Inversion artifact" is the correct terminology.

Glossary
"Inversion" = normal programmed behaviour of an LCD to protect itself from burn-in via a voltage-alternating inversion algorithm.
"inversion artifact" = the visible side effects of the above. Sometimes it's not visible, sometimes it's slightly visible, and sometimes very.

Two different things (but related).

And among the above, there are many kinds of inversion artifacts, including single-pixel chessboard patterns, single-pixel horizontal lines, single-pixel vertical lines (often moving along with the motion) etc. Now if the inversion artifact consists of vertical lines, you mean a "vertical lines inversion artifact" or "inversion artifact that looks like vertical lines".

"Vertical inversion" is a bit unclear.
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors
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