240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

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yuri
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by yuri » 10 Jun 2022, 14:06

so, ive made 6videos on UFO

2 at 240hz overdrive esport and off ( minimal ghosting at all modes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohGA6ZrhxKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MXExWxGRAI

2 at 120hz esport and off ( You can see weird effect in black gaps at 7seconds on the first link, maybe it's because i switch refresh rate while the page was running, it look like TAA anti aliasing ghosting)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27xUMZwNals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_lfNBJngvc
2 at 60hz ( is impossible to see a crystal clear ufo its normal i know but ghosting is very high tho)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkUReS9yfQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P92N3pcojbM
So response time is super fast even at 120hz, minimal ghosting and no overshoot i did not test the normal setting because Esport and Normal are sames and extreme put too much overshoot.
Last edited by yuri on 10 Jun 2022, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.

yuri
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by yuri » 10 Jun 2022, 14:31


yuri
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by yuri » 10 Jun 2022, 15:11

CS go at 237fps

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=90Yc_0mFn94 (yes it's not a bot)

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Discorz
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by Discorz » 11 Jun 2022, 04:16

yuri wrote:
10 Jun 2022, 14:06
so, ive made 6videos on UFO

2 at 240hz overdrive esport and off ( minimal ghosting at all modes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohGA6ZrhxKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MXExWxGRAI

2 at 120hz esport and off ( You can see weird effect in black gaps at 7seconds on the first link, maybe it's because i switch refresh rate while the page was running, it look like TAA anti aliasing ghosting)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27xUMZwNals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_lfNBJngvc

2 at 60hz ( is impossible to see a crystal clear ufo its normal i know but ghosting is very high tho)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkUReS9yfQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P92N3pcojbM

So response time is super fast even at 120hz, minimal ghosting and no overshoot i did not test the normal setting because Esport and Normal are sames and extreme put too much overshoot.
Thank you for doing these.

The artifact you see is caused by short shutter speed. Your camera seem to be at fixed ~1/80 speed. See if u can adjust it to Hz/4 (capture 4 frames of every refresh), different speed for every refresh rate, 1/60 for 240Hz, 1/30 for 120Hz, 1/15 for 60Hz. You might find 1/15 for 60 too hard/blurry to track so for this case 1/20 might be enough (Hz/3, 3 frames instead of 4). ISO turned out overexposed, too bright, so detail is burnt. To get even better result try to improve tracking accuracy, keeps hands as steady as possible.

The csgo video looks way better. The effect is much less pronounced. Could the metro game have additional motion blur effect on top to achieve a cinematic feel? I wouldn't know, haven't played it.
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yuri
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by yuri » 11 Jun 2022, 08:05

Well i found the problem.

On métro Exodus you Can set 3 motion Blur settings,
The array effect IS not present at high. But artefact are still there. It's because of the variable overdrive that bring lot of overshoot when set to E-sport.

I get 80 to 130 FPS on métro Exodus

Rtings says that at 120hz the overdrive have to be set to off. And at 60hz the monitor double the refresh rate to match 120hz.(due to vrr overdrive i think)
Rtings didnt test the overdrive when gsync is enable.

Gsync is not ON when i don't play games that's why i Saw perfect motion at 120 and 240hz on UFO

For CS GO the motion Blur can't be set to ON because valve disable it so what i see on cs go IS array effect.

On metro is array+overshoot or ghosting from variable overdrive.

In conclusion the variable overdrive is good from 150+to240hz and Bad to 60to150hz.

The more framerate goes down the more overshoot gets Bad.

Sadly the E-sport overdrive is good at 60hz and 240hz at 120hz it introduce overshoot.

The extreme Can only be set at 60hz only.

Normal is bad except at 60hz but the e-sport is more faster without overshoot. At 120hz it does similar to extreme.

Off IS only good to 120hz no overshoot AT all but introduce a Little ghosting..
Rtings Say that off should be used for 120hz because over overdrive options bring coronas

If i set overdrive to OFF it disable the variable refresh rate overdrive.

So few options i got:

Disable g-sync and set overdrive manually

Let g-sync on and play without overdrive.

Try to get above 150fps by lowering graphics settings.

Cap FPS to get minimal frame drops and activate overdrive

Or stop playing and go at 60hz.

yuri
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by yuri » 11 Jun 2022, 08:08

https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... ft-pg279qm

Here the rtings test. You Can see the weird overdrive options.

This monitor strangely doubles frames at low refresh rates, but not at 120Hz. Because of this strange behavior, the total 120Hz response time is actually a bit slower than at lower refresh rates. The 'Off' mode delivers better performance at 120Hz than the 'Esports' or 'Normal' modes, both of which have noticeable overshoot. It's not too bad, though, so if you're looking for a "set and forget" mode, either 'Esports' or 'Normal' are still the best choice. As always, the highest 'Extreme' setting has way too much overshoot to be usable.

Btw in the article of array effect, they said that you Can add GPU motion Blur.

Can i add motion Blur or set a value other than games options? (Like ini files?)

yuri
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by yuri » 03 Jul 2022, 19:43

Anyone ?

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jorimt
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by jorimt » 03 Jul 2022, 22:27

yuri wrote:
11 Jun 2022, 08:08
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... ft-pg279qm

Here the rtings test. You Can see the weird overdrive options.

This monitor strangely doubles frames at low refresh rates, but not at 120Hz. Because of this strange behavior, the total 120Hz response time is actually a bit slower than at lower refresh rates. The 'Off' mode delivers better performance at 120Hz than the 'Esports' or 'Normal' modes, both of which have noticeable overshoot. It's not too bad, though, so if you're looking for a "set and forget" mode, either 'Esports' or 'Normal' are still the best choice. As always, the highest 'Extreme' setting has way too much overshoot to be usable.
yuri wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 19:43
Anyone ?
120Hz and 60Hz in the RTINGS results refer to when the monitor is manually set to a physical refresh rate of 120Hz or 60Hz, not with 120 FPS or 60 FPS at a physical refresh rate of 240Hz with G-SYNC or no-sync.

Beyond console gaming, I don't see the use case for setting a lower than 240Hz physical refresh rate on PC, especially since it supports native G-SYNC (where you should leave it at the max physical refresh rate and control variable refresh "rate" with a framerate limiter instead, as to retain the fastest scanout time, regardless of framerate), and especially in scenarios with G-SYNC and V-SYNC disabled with uncapped FPS in comp situations.

The monitor "doubles" refreshes below a physical 120Hz refresh rate as to avoid the input latency penalty most 240Hz monitors introduce when they're set to, say, a physical 60Hz due to scanout rate conversion by actually running at 120Hz. It's a form of quick frame transport, from what it sounds like, which is actually the most desirable scenario in this case, especially for 60Hz console gaming and ensures the lowest possible display latency when it's set below the native physical refresh rate.

As for the claimed overshoot at "Normal" and "Esports" in the 240Hz scenario, it's due to a measurement technicality that RTINGs openly admitted, and doesn't affect real-world usage.

Additionally, I haven't personally noticed any overshoot using variable overdrive (set to "Esports") with VRR at 240Hz, so I'm not sure what's up with your particular settings and/or unit? Perhaps you're conflating overdrive artifacts with the stroboscopic effect @Discorz already mentioned as a result of the very low GtG on this monitor, which only enhances the double image effect (due to image persistence unrelated to overdrive performance) compared to a monitor with higher GtG, which will instead obscure the effect due to more inherit blur. Hard to say from what you've shared...

All I can say is the lower the GtG, the more sample-and-hold is apparent. This is why OLED, which has virtually instantaneous pixel response times, seems stuttery to many who are coming from LCD. I.E. the faster/better the pixel transitions of the display, the more obvious the persistence of finite refresh/framerates is, ironically.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

yuri
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by yuri » 04 Jul 2022, 06:01

Okay i see, well its strange that i never Saw this issue before, in fact i test 5 monitor before the pg279qm and i never notice the strobe effect..

Maybe because i play games that have motion Blur per object.

I Can see the strobe effect only if i Flick fast my mouse in fast paced shooter like warzone
( 6 400e-dpi)
because when i look at Blur buster motion test the strobe effect is not present even at 3800pixel.

Overshoot is present with e-sport enable, you Can see white trail on dark to white background but the fall Time is Quick so you can't really Saw it if you don't look for it.
But at 120fps the overshoot is Really visible.
Thats why i turn it to off with a frame cap to 120 if the game doesn't run above 150.

At 240hz pixel take 4ms to make a transition or the response Time at 240hz is 8to10ms with e-sport overdrive.

No im not conflacting overshoot/ghosting and strobe.

One is trail and persistence the other is double image stationary gaze.

But its really disturbing when you saw an afterimage when you move your mouse in a contrast object like all the video i made.
And you got the feeling that you run your game at 30fps sometimes.

But well i Guess its just about motion Blur and some games can't provide good motion Blur for removing strobe/array effect

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jorimt
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Re: 240hz monitor ghosting/double image artifact

Post by jorimt » 04 Jul 2022, 09:06

yuri wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 06:01
Okay i see, well its strange that i never Saw this issue before, in fact i test 5 monitor before the pg279qm and i never notice the strobe effect..
I don't know what other models you tested, but again, the lower the native GtG of the monitor and the less artifacts, the more sample-and-hold is apparent. If you've ever played on an OLED, which has virtually perfect "GtG" performance and no overdrive artifacts, you'd know it does nothing to solve image persistence blur, even at 120Hz+ refresh rates.
yuri wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 06:01
Maybe because i play games that have motion Blur per object.
In-game post-process motion blur will certainly add its own motion artifacts separate of the monitor, that's actually kind of the point.

I personally can't stand any form of post-process blur, but there are games like Metro (which I own) that don't allow it to be fully disabled.
yuri wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 06:01
I Can see the strobe effect only if i Flick fast my mouse in fast paced shooter like warzone
( 6 400e-dpi)
because when i look at Blur buster motion test the strobe effect is not present even at 3800pixel.
The UFO tests aren't 100% representative of real-world usage; in all of your videos, you're fully controlling the speed, length, and direction of the flick to trigger the effect you want, from left-to-right, right-to-left, up-down, etc, whereas UFO tests are a fixed speed and only scroll in one direction.

Try this test with the Eiffel Tower image at higher speeds and don't eye track, look at the center of the image and let it pass. You should then see the stroboscopic effect (in fact you should see it as soon as you open the link before the pattern has a chance to slow down and sync fully):
https://testufo.com/photo#photo=eiffel. ... ttersize=0

I'd also mention that this monitor isn't ghosting/smearing-free, there are certain darker or lighter transitions that will show overdrive artifacts. This goes for any LCD monitor though.
yuri wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 06:01
Overshoot is present with e-sport enable, you Can see white trail on dark to white background but the fall Time is Quick so you can't really Saw it if you don't look for it.
But at 120fps the overshoot is Really visible.
You're referring to 120 FPS at a 240Hz physical refresh rate with G-SYNC, right? If so, I've been playing the FFVII Remake at 120 FPS 240Hz G-SYNC lately, and I haven't noticed any overshoot, so you must have to really look for it and move your mouse at a certain speed and direction in certain scenes to trigger it.
yuri wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 06:01
At 240hz pixel take 4ms to make a transition or the response Time at 240hz is 8to10ms with e-sport overdrive.
As I said earlier, at certain transitions, all LCD monitors do this, regardless of how good their average overdrive performance is. The key word here is "average," there will always be the slower outlier transitions. That, and 8-10ms would usually mean normal ghosting/smearing, not inverse ghosting, aka "overshoot."

Again though, as RTINGs observed, the Normal and Esports presets briefly spike to achieve faster transitions. I'd rather have that than them slowly ramping to reach the same transitions speed, but it's conceivable in edge-cases this can make the overshoot it causes perceivable in the right conditions.
yuri wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 06:01
But its really disturbing when you saw an afterimage when you move your mouse in a contrast object like all the video i made.
And you got the feeling that you run your game at 30fps sometimes.
Here's the issue, there's only around four or five name-brand monitor models that use this latest "fast" IPS-type 1440p panel, so the only thing you can do is try those and see if any of them tune their overdrive in a way you prefer more, because I don't know of another 1440p or higher resolution IPS panel that has faster native GtG than this one, currently.

I'm sure many posters here would love to skip current-gen technology, travel to the future, and acquire what we assume will be perfect displays in 50 years (I'm not holding my breath), but we've got what we've got to pick from now, and if none of it meets your standards, then it means what you want probably hasn't been made yet.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

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