Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

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yuri
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Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by yuri » 20 Aug 2022, 08:50

Hello everyone :D

I have question about the stroboscopic effect on sample-and-hold monitors.

If the monitor is set on 240hz at 240fps, if i don't use motion Blur per object (at least) there will be strobocopics on all the image ?

And why this is so distracting on high contrast objects like lights, and why the mouse speed doesnt blend into Blur ?

Another question is does the strobocopic/ phantom array depend of the polling rate of the mouse and dpi?

And finally why people doesnt complain about it when they disable the motion Blur option in all games? Because this is more disturbing to see than a soft motion Blur to mask the gap of each frames.

Btw English is not my primary language sorry...

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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by yuri » 14 Sep 2022, 10:09

No one?

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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by jorimt » 14 Sep 2022, 10:28

yuri wrote:
14 Sep 2022, 10:09
Refer to The Stroboscopic Effect Of Finite Frame Rate Displays article, if you haven't already.

The stroboscopic effect is directly affected by the achievable framerate/refresh rate ratio, and is unrelated to other forms of motion blur such as native GtG, overdrive artifacts, in-game post process motion blur effects, etc.
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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 14 Sep 2022, 11:52

Ditto. I even made a shorturl to that article: blurbusters.com/stroboscopics because I refer to it so often.

Also, there's also other textbook reading on display behaviors at blurbusters.com/area51 which contains all my famous big articles.

The problem is we can't easily simultaneously fix motion blur AND stroboscopics at current contemporary three-digit refresh rates. You gotta choose your priority!

To whet appetite, here's an animated PNG from jorimt's link to the article I wrote.

Image

And some are familiar with:

Image

Some people are unusually sensitive to it (moreso than other artifacts), everyone observes different things on displays.

The bottom line is you have to pick your poison, depending on whether you're stationary-gaze or eye-tracking. It can never be fully fixed blurlessly on current displays at current contemporary refresh rates.

One example compromise is adding more GPU blur to fix stroboscopic ffect. But not everyone likes the extra blur from enabling extra GPU-based motion blur filters. Extra GPU blur is beneficial to hide awful stutter of ultralow frame rates like 24fps since some people find stutter the worse evil versus motion blur. But generally bad for most people during >100fps frame rates, most are less bothered by stroboscopic effect than motion blur.

That's why all VR headsets are strobed by default, and all of them have the stroboscopic effect (e.g. rolling eyes fast while holding a stationary Lightsaber in Beat Saber) -- you'd need an eye tracking sensor that reacts fast enough to add intentional GPU blur to a strobed display ONLY while eyes are tracking -- as a band-aid example. But that is not a luxury afforded to multivewer 2D flat panel displays that sits on a wall, on a cabinet, or a desk.

Also, being familiar with Blur Busters Law And The Amazing Journey To 1000Hz Displays is useful in understanding why this is unfixable. Scroll down to the Vicious Cycle Effect section that explains the compromise trap that forces us into a compromise between "Do we want to add extra motion blur, or do we want to add extra stroboscopic effect?" compromise of any refresh rate less than retina refresh rate. I followed that up with blurbusters.com/stroboscopics

TL;DR: It's unfixable at refresh rates less than roughly 1x-2x the longest dimension of your display. Retina refresh rate during sample-and-hold is linked to the fastest human eye tracking speed, from screen edge to edge, and pixel density (below angular resolving resolution) determines whether you can tell the blurriness/stroboscopicness difference between stationary image and moving image. So for a 1920x1080 display you are still able to see individual pixels on, retina refresh rate is approximately ~2000-4000Hz (error margin is only a fraction of a magnitude). Go to 4K while still being able to resolve individual pixels, and the retina refresh rate doubles to 4000Hz-8000Hz. This even assumes best-case scenario of GtG=0, stutter=0, jitter=0, framerate=Hz perfectly.
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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by yuri » 15 Sep 2022, 11:27

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
14 Sep 2022, 11:52
Ditto. I even made a shorturl to that article: blurbusters.com/stroboscopics because I refer to it so often.

Also, there's also other textbook reading on display behaviors at blurbusters.com/area51 which contains all my famous big articles.

The problem is we can't easily simultaneously fix motion blur AND stroboscopics at current contemporary three-digit refresh rates. You gotta choose your priority!

To whet appetite, here's an animated PNG from jorimt's link to the article I wrote.

Image

And some are familiar with:

Image

Some people are unusually sensitive to it (moreso than other artifacts), everyone observes different things on displays.

The bottom line is you have to pick your poison, depending on whether you're stationary-gaze or eye-tracking. It can never be fully fixed blurlessly on current displays at current contemporary refresh rates.

One example compromise is adding more GPU blur to fix stroboscopic ffect. But not everyone likes the extra blur from enabling extra GPU-based motion blur filters. Extra GPU blur is beneficial to hide awful stutter of ultralow frame rates like 24fps since some people find stutter the worse evil versus motion blur. But generally bad for most people during >100fps frame rates, most are less bothered by stroboscopic effect than motion blur.

That's why all VR headsets are strobed by default, and all of them have the stroboscopic effect (e.g. rolling eyes fast while holding a stationary Lightsaber in Beat Saber) -- you'd need an eye tracking sensor that reacts fast enough to add intentional GPU blur to a strobed display ONLY while eyes are tracking -- as a band-aid example. But that is not a luxury afforded to multivewer 2D flat panel displays that sits on a wall, on a cabinet, or a desk.

Also, being familiar with Blur Busters Law And The Amazing Journey To 1000Hz Displays is useful in understanding why this is unfixable. Scroll down to the Vicious Cycle Effect section that explains the compromise trap that forces us into a compromise between "Do we want to add extra motion blur, or do we want to add extra stroboscopic effect?" compromise of any refresh rate less than retina refresh rate. I followed that up with blurbusters.com/stroboscopics

TL;DR: It's unfixable at refresh rates less than roughly 1x-2x the longest dimension of your display. Retina refresh rate during sample-and-hold is linked to the fastest human eye tracking speed, from screen edge to edge, and pixel density (below angular resolving resolution) determines whether you can tell the blurriness/stroboscopicness difference between stationary image and moving image. So for a 1920x1080 display you are still able to see individual pixels on, retina refresh rate is approximately ~2000-4000Hz (error margin is only a fraction of a magnitude). Go to 4K while still being able to resolve individual pixels, and the retina refresh rate doubles to 4000Hz-8000Hz. This even assumes best-case scenario of GtG=0, stutter=0, jitter=0, framerate=Hz perfectly.
Is see, and what about mouse sentivity/DPI and polling rate does it reduce the gap produce by the strobe effect ??
Does 1000hz mouse for 240hz montior is to low?

Do i need a Razer Viper 8k?

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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 15 Sep 2022, 19:05

yuri wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 11:27
Is see, and what about mouse sentivity/DPI and polling rate does it reduce the gap produce by the strobe effect ??
Does 1000hz mouse for 240hz montior is to low?

Do i need a Razer Viper 8k?
Going 8KHz with the mouse it doesn't affect the stroboscopic count but it can affect the stroboscopic stability (consistent steps) with things like mouse arrow, mouse panning, or mouse turns.

To get reduced stroboscopic issues with a mouse, you want high-DPI, high-poll, low-sensitivity. Running at 1600-3200dpi produces amazing smoothness that minimizes stroboscopic instability at all mouseturn/pan speeds, especially slow panning speeds. If you only use 400dpi and you pan a quarter inch per second for a slow track (e.g. sniper scope), you can't exceed 100 frames per second because quarter an inch only has 100 dot positions.

Even the esports community is slowly learning that 400dpi was old fashioned advice optimized for low-DPI games like CS:GO. A third of the Faze Clan now use at least 1000dpi with their gaming mice in the Fortnite game. Fortnite is high-DPI friendly with accurate mouse mathematics for high-DPI operation, provided you scale sensitivity down proportionally.

So you want to readjust dpi-vs-sensitivity balance in newer games (games newer than CS:GO) that does the high-DPI mathematics in a very precise way.

Now, here's actual peer reviewed research that 1000 Hz is not enough for jitter-free stability:

Image

Image
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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by yuri » 21 Sep 2022, 06:01

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 19:05
yuri wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 11:27
Is see, and what about mouse sentivity/DPI and polling rate does it reduce the gap produce by the strobe effect ??
Does 1000hz mouse for 240hz montior is to low?

Do i need a Razer Viper 8k?
Going 8KHz with the mouse it doesn't affect the stroboscopic count but it can affect the stroboscopic stability (consistent steps) with things like mouse arrow, mouse panning, or mouse turns.

To get reduced stroboscopic issues with a mouse, you want high-DPI, high-poll, low-sensitivity. Running at 1600-3200dpi produces amazing smoothness that minimizes stroboscopic instability at all mouseturn/pan speeds, especially slow panning speeds. If you only use 400dpi and you pan a quarter inch per second for a slow track (e.g. sniper scope), you can't exceed 100 frames per second because quarter an inch only has 100 dot positions.

Even the esports community is slowly learning that 400dpi was old fashioned advice optimized for low-DPI games like CS:GO. A third of the Faze Clan now use at least 1000dpi with their gaming mice in the Fortnite game. Fortnite is high-DPI friendly with accurate mouse mathematics for high-DPI operation, provided you scale sensitivity down proportionally.

So you want to readjust dpi-vs-sensitivity balance in newer games (games newer than CS:GO) that does the high-DPI mathematics in a very precise way.

Now, here's actual peer reviewed research that 1000 Hz is not enough for jitter-free stability:

Image

Image
Allright i see, but it's work only for New games because old games does not support high dpi and high polling rate right? So there is a software to support 8k 1600+dpi for older games? Like fear 1

And last question, only motion Blur Can Mask strobe effect ? So a game that doesn't have it or a really Bad motion Blur, does a software exist to blend the gap between each frame ?

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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Sep 2022, 17:02

1. Razer includes software to change the poll rate (125, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000) even on a per-game basis. And DPI can be changed too.

2. Not currently. The game must have the blur effect feature.
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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by yuri » 28 Sep 2022, 09:29

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 17:02
1. Razer includes software to change the poll rate (125, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000) even on a per-game basis. And DPI can be changed too.

2. Not currently. The game must have the blur effect feature.
Allright, thanks.

For the second point, i find that reshade can do motion Blur and that helps a lot.

Thanks for the Reply chief

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Re: Questions about phantom array/ stroboscopics effects

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 28 Sep 2022, 17:43

yuri wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 09:29
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 17:02
1. Razer includes software to change the poll rate (125, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000) even on a per-game basis. And DPI can be changed too.

2. Not currently. The game must have the blur effect feature.
Allright, thanks.

For the second point, i find that reshade can do motion Blur and that helps a lot.

Thanks for the Reply chief
You're welcome!

VRR + GPU blurring (game based or reshade based) is probably your best friend if you are extremely bothered by the stroboscopic

The good news is that the more framerate & more Hertz, less GPU blurring is needed to solve the stroboscopic effect (as in The Stroboscopic Effect of Finite Frame Rates).

Some of this is also explained in the video-based UltraHFR FAQ, where to go stroboscopic-effect-free requires a 360-degree shutter on a camera, but to simulate a 360-degree shutter with game motion, is a GPU motion blur effect (the game setting or the ReShade filter).

Most of us here on Blur Busters (our namesake!) hate motion blur more, but we know there are people who hate the phantom arrays (stroboscopic effect) more.

On a display, you need one frametime worth of motion blur to eliminate the stroboscopic effect (phantom array), and higher max Hz of VRR allows higher frame rate, GPU performance permitting.

For stroboscopic-free motion, you can't get less than a combined (2/maxHz) worth of motion blur if you hate flicker and stroboscopic effect, since 2/maxHz is the absolute minimum blur of stroboscopic-effect-free motion blur, since you get 1 frametime (refresh cycle) of MPRT blurring and 1 frametime (refresh cycle) of GPU-soft blurring, for a total minimum mandatory motion blur of 2 frametimes (refresh cycles).

So 500fps at 500Hz still will create 1/250sec of motion blurring for you, in a 100% stroboscopics-free manner (1 frametime of display persistence MPRT blurring + 1 frametime of GPU-effect blurring).

(For VRR, it is automatically always framerate=Hz regardless of framerate, as Hz varies to match framerate when in VRR range)

So increasing refresh rate will still benefit you, if you have enough GPU horsepower to keep up.
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