All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

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matkinson
Posts: 22
Joined: 07 Feb 2023, 08:47

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by matkinson » 08 Feb 2023, 14:42

MST wrote:
08 Feb 2023, 14:24
Are all of these off?
https://imgur.com/oejb3oz

Also, to get back to what you've shown me thus far. I'll ignore the dota video since there you have a frame limiter on, which seems to get overshot by something periodically according to your display OSD, which is not good.
On the Valheim video, there's no fps counter.
Also, how does it work without any for of vsync or vrr?
Valheim is running anywhere between 75-100 fps in that area. It may not be the best example as it's not the most stable game.

I only put the Dota framecap on to force it to start stuttering is all, it's easy to reproduce that way, instead of trying to find an intensive fight in order for the framerate to drop to cause it.

It's happened on all my previous high refresh rate monitors also, tried VA, 1440p, ultrawide, games still have the same problem.

So, turning absolutely everything off, it looks exactly the same to my naked eye, however when recorded in super slo-mo, I can see tearing on top.

New video showing both Dota and Valheim with vsync off, vrr off, nvcp set to defaults, all monitor settings off.
https://youtu.be/VyDVfHI4-H0

I keep hoping it's going to be something stupidly obvious I'm missing, as I'd rather look a fool and have this fixed than the current situation lol.

matkinson
Posts: 22
Joined: 07 Feb 2023, 08:47

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by matkinson » 08 Feb 2023, 17:44

Quick update:

Warzone 2 is the same as Dota, where the Monitor On Screen Refresh Rate is jumping all over the place (doesn't spike up to 144fps like in Dota, but will go to 115 as an example), but the game is running at say 90fps. Makes the game feel pretty bad. Not quite as bad as Dota, but not much better.

( Referencing this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAee3eLz9qU )

This was with Gsync On, Vsync On in NVCP, Vsync off in-game.

Now...how do I get my monitor's freesync, to match the in game fps, what am I doing wrong here...

matkinson
Posts: 22
Joined: 07 Feb 2023, 08:47

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by matkinson » 09 Feb 2023, 13:50

After looking at the monitor OSD some more, the games that feel the worst, definitely bounce around the most on the OSD.

The games that feel smoother, move around much less. Dota feels the worst, Warzone feels it a bit less, then say Siege or MHW feel it the least. (if it all honestly)
The monitor OSD refresh rate reflects this.

I've looked at some older threads, and it seems the monitor OSD refresh rate shouldn't matter, but it definitely matches up in this case. Whether that's causation or something else, I don't know.

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jorimt
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Location: USA

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by jorimt » 09 Feb 2023, 14:07

matkinson wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 13:50
I've looked at some older threads, and it seems the monitor OSD refresh rate shouldn't matter, but it definitely matches up in this case. Whether that's causation or something else, I don't know.
The FreeSync monitor OSD refresh rate meter is indeed not a reliable metric to diagnose your issues. It's approximate and may also includes LFC multiples in its numbers. It's only really useful for verifying whether VRR is currently active; fluctuating = active, static = inactive.

For tracking framerate and frametime performance, system-side tools like Afterburner/RTSS should be used instead.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

matkinson
Posts: 22
Joined: 07 Feb 2023, 08:47

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by matkinson » 09 Feb 2023, 14:46

jorimt wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 14:07
matkinson wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 13:50
I've looked at some older threads, and it seems the monitor OSD refresh rate shouldn't matter, but it definitely matches up in this case. Whether that's causation or something else, I don't know.
The FreeSync monitor OSD refresh rate meter is indeed not a reliable metric to diagnose your issues. It's approximate and may also includes LFC multiples in its numbers. It's only really useful for verifying whether VRR is currently active; fluctuating = active, static = inactive.

For tracking framerate and frametime performance, system-side tools like Afterburner/RTSS should be used instead.
I'm sure you're right, but I'm also struggling anything else to try or look at at this point.

Unless anyone can find another angle over the next day or so, I think I'm going to try dual boot ubuntu, wrap my head around it, and see if it does the same thing.

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jorimt
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Location: USA

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by jorimt » 09 Feb 2023, 15:24

matkinson wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 14:46
I'm sure you're right, but I'm also struggling anything else to try or look at at this point.
I honestly have yet to do a deep dive into what you posted and only looked at your initial CapFrameX captures and briefly at a couple of your videos...

The issue with these types of threads, is this form of troubleshooting would be best done in person (where an experienced user can can work in real-time; a surgeon isn't expected to walk his patient remotely through performing his own surgery, for example), as, unless the stutter is absurdly obvious, video captures of the issue still aren't clear enough.

SEEING what you're experiencing isn't the same thing as FEELING it. It's the same reason you can't fully determine the performance of someone's rig and how it does or doesn't feel for them by simply watching their stream. I.E. "my favorite streamer doesn't have my issues, his gameplay LOOKS perfect," which is a joke, because 1) they're using streaming software that is usually at a different framerate than what they are actually experiencing on their side, and 2) I can easily see hard stutter all the time in their streams (and in demo videos directly from publishers, you name it).

Not saying whether you have a real issue or not, but going by what you've ruled out by now, for all any of us know, what you're experiencing could be fully within the norm (based on your specs and depending on the game and your BIOS/OS/game settings), and you just don't have enough experience to tell what is and isn't "expected." That, or you just don't want to believe whatever you're experiencing may not end up being fixable (this is the predicament of most, but not all that start these type of threads).

The fact that you've now experienced it across multiple unique PC builds and monitors isn't a great sign where a "solution" is concerned.

And on a side note, the fact that you started experiencing this after using higher refresh monitors may, in part, track; the higher the sustain frame + refresh rate, the more obvious any form of stutter will become when it occurs, regardless of the origin or cause.

I've basically given up helping troubleshoot frametime performance issues in this medium; I've seen hundreds of threads like this, and no one complaining about these issues have ever really "solved" anything, yet the conversation goes on, and on...and on...and on...

The only time I've personally ever seen any form of stutter reported as "fixed" across multiple PC configurations is via a patch from the devs.

Though one last thing I'll say is for Dota, or any non-demanding game in particular, make sure it isn't downclocking your GPU by setting prefer maximum performance for the game profile via the NVCP or Nvidia Inspector. Not doing so can cause issues in any game that doesn't push the system hard enough to allow base boost clocks to kick in. Also for Dota, try to run it in exclusive fullscreen (not borderless), keep it at its default 120 FPS in-game limit, disable in-game V-SYNC (if possible) and use G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC instead.

That all said, I wish you luck regardless. I'm sure others will continue to chime in.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

matkinson
Posts: 22
Joined: 07 Feb 2023, 08:47

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by matkinson » 09 Feb 2023, 16:07

jorimt wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 15:24
matkinson wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 14:46
I'm sure you're right, but I'm also struggling anything else to try or look at at this point.
I honestly have yet to do a deep dive into what you posted and only looked at your initial CapFrameX captures and briefly at a couple of your videos...

The issue with these types of threads, is this form of troubleshooting would be best done in person (where an experienced user can can work in real-time; a surgeon isn't expected to walk his patient remotely through performing his own surgery, for example), as, unless the stutter is absurdly obvious, video captures of the issue still aren't clear enough.

SEEING what you're experiencing isn't the same thing as FEELING it. It's the same reason you can't fully determine the performance of someone's rig and how it does or doesn't feel for them by simply watching their stream. I.E. "my favorite streamer doesn't have my issues, his gameplay LOOKS perfect," which is a joke, because 1) they're using streaming software that is usually at a different framerate than what they are actually experiencing on their side, and 2) I can easily see hard stutter all the time in their streams (and in demo videos directly from publishers, you name it).

Not saying whether you have a real issue or not, but going by what you've ruled out by now, for all any of us know, what you're experiencing could be fully within the norm (based on your specs and depending on the game and your BIOS/OS/game settings), and you just don't have enough experience to tell what is and isn't "expected." That, or you just don't want to believe whatever you're experiencing may not end up being fixable (this is the predicament of most, but not all that start these type of threads).

The fact that you've now experienced it across multiple unique PC builds and monitors isn't a great sign where a "solution" is concerned.

And on a side note, the fact that you started experiencing this after using higher refresh monitors may, in part, track; the higher the sustain frame + refresh rate, the more obvious any form of stutter will become when it occurs, regardless of the origin or cause.

I've basically given up helping troubleshoot frametime performance issues in this medium; I've seen hundreds of threads like this, and no one complaining about these issues have ever really "solved" anything, yet the conversation goes on, and on...and on...and on...

The only time I've personally ever seen any form of stutter reported as "fixed" across multiple PC configurations is via a patch from the devs.

Though one last thing I'll say is for Dota, or any non-demanding game in particular, make sure it isn't downclocking your GPU by setting prefer maximum performance for the game profile via the NVCP or Nvidia Inspector. Not doing so can cause issues in any game that doesn't push the system hard enough to allow base boost clocks to kick in. Also for Dota, try to run it in exclusive fullscreen (not borderless), keep it at its default 120 FPS in-game limit, disable in-game V-SYNC (if possible) and use G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC instead.

That all said, I wish you luck regardless. I'm sure others will continue to chime in.
Appreciate the response, I agree with everything you're saying. I've had the exact same internal dialogue many times.

There was a period where I thought I was just imagining it, but I've had a few friends over, locked it at 60fps with the monitor also set to 60hz, then the monitor set to 144hz, but locked at 100fps, the 60fps/60hz setup looked miles smoother to all of us, not even close. Admittedly these are again just subjective accounts, but enough for me to cement the belief that something is definitely wrong.

I genuinely am at the point of realising this may be something that cannot be fixed, for whatever reason. It's difficult to wrap my brain around realising something that should be logical, can't be fixed, and doesn't occur for that many other people, for seemingly no reason. (but there must be a reason? surely?)

This is my last ditch effort of trying anything & everything once more to see if a resolution is possible.

MST
Posts: 25
Joined: 15 Jan 2019, 04:35

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by MST » 09 Feb 2023, 18:37

Hmmm, I have a wild idea. It's happening only when you move camera with your mouse right?
I discovered recently I have stutters with my mouse polling rate set low. After I increased it to 500 hz the stutter was solved. In your case it's probably not that since you say it gets fixed on 60 refresh rate, but worth a look.

matkinson
Posts: 22
Joined: 07 Feb 2023, 08:47

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by matkinson » 09 Feb 2023, 19:29

MST wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 18:37
Hmmm, I have a wild idea. It's happening only when you move camera with your mouse right?
I discovered recently I have stutters with my mouse polling rate set low. After I increased it to 500 hz the stutter was solved. In your case it's probably not that since you say it gets fixed on 60 refresh rate, but worth a look.
Tried all my mouse polling rates (125, 500, 1000hz), no difference unfortunately. If anything, I'd say 125hz makes it worse, but I think it's just adding on top.

I took 2 benchmarks in Dota, doing as little in possible in-game.
One with Vsync capping the frames at 144fps.
One with using the in-game frame cap at 140fps. (same if I use NVCP max frame rate setting)
https://imgur.com/a/VVo5IKs

I admit this not a definitive test at all, for a short period of time etc. But it sort of demonstrates my point that the second it leaves Vsync, the frametimes basically half for both 1% and 0.1% lows. Can reproduce it every time, so something is definitely happening, I just don't know what.

MST
Posts: 25
Joined: 15 Jan 2019, 04:35

Re: All games stutter below 144fps lock. Will pay for a solution.

Post by MST » 09 Feb 2023, 19:51

BTW the last video you posted of Dota, that's clearly screen tearing, which is caused by improper vsync.
As for your second test... I indeed have seen this in the past, where vsync would cap your fps to half the refresh rate when you can't keep the fps equal to refresh rate. Not sure what causes that but for me it's rare.
Can you try 100 refresh rate with vsync? or 85? (custom resolution)
It's hard without seeing with my own eyes as someone earlier also said.

Can you also show all driver settings from nvidia control panel? Make sure to disable any "low latency" feature as those might cause stuttering when cpu can't keep up.
If you want we can make a discord call over the weekend and despite not seeing with my own eyed I might find something setting/software related.

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