FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Everything about displays and monitors. 120Hz, 144Hz, 240Hz, 4K, 1440p, input lag, display shopping, monitor purchase decisions, compare, versus, debate, and more. Questions? Just ask!
bilalirfanpk
Posts: 19
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 12:18

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by bilalirfanpk » 12 Mar 2023, 14:54

Also just to make sure, VSYNC needs to be enabled via NVCP in Global settings or Program settings? Because setting it globally doesn't affect anything in game.

User avatar
jorimt
Posts: 2481
Joined: 04 Nov 2016, 10:44
Location: USA

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by jorimt » 12 Mar 2023, 15:51

bilalirfanpk wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 14:48
Yes agreed with that. If my FPS and VRR matches in Dota, then I just wonder what could be the issue. It seems like its frame pacing issue which is causing stutters.
Right, and again, G-SYNC will show frame-pacing issues as-is. It's a 1:1 mirror of system performance (just without tearing), whereas standalone V-SYNC is not.
bilalirfanpk wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 14:48
I am using Intel i5 10400F paired with RTX 2060. OpenGL doesn't work anymore with Dota and I have tried Vulkan which had even worst fps and stuttering overall. Currently my game is running on DX11.
Hm, then Dota just seems to be hard on some CPUs, and CPU-limited games can tend toward more sporadic frametime performance.
bilalirfanpk wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 14:48
Maybe upgrading my W10 to Windows 11 might help. I don't know.
For Dota, it likely won't. The game is just running on a very old engine that relies too heavily on the CPU, and probably single-threaded performance at that.
bilalirfanpk wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 14:54
Also just to make sure, VSYNC needs to be enabled via NVCP in Global settings or Program settings? Because setting it globally doesn't affect anything in game.
Whichever works for that game, though it's odd to hear that forcing V-SYNC globally via NVCP isn't applying it in Dota for you. Try clean installing the latest Nvidia driver via DDU if you haven't already.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

bilalirfanpk
Posts: 19
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 12:18

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by bilalirfanpk » 13 Mar 2023, 07:35

jorimt wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 15:51
For Dota, it likely won't. The game is just running on a very old engine that relies too heavily on the CPU, and probably single-threaded performance at that.
I was going through reddit and came across HAGS (Hardware accelerated GPU scheduling), it has always been ON since years for me but I read for many users it causes stutters and turning it off solves all their problems. As HAGS tends to lower down CPU utilization, I feel like maybe its causing system side stuttering in Dota. What if its not letting CPU render the frames that game needs as the game itself is running on old engine utilizing single core. HAGS works well with the newer games and funny thing, all the new games that I play have no issues with Feesync + HAGS ON. It somehow makes sense. I will go back home and check. Kinda excited lmao. Hopefully its the culprit.
jorimt wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 15:51
Whichever works for that game, though it's odd to hear that forcing V-SYNC globally via NVCP isn't applying it in Dota for you. Try clean installing the latest Nvidia driver via DDU if you haven't already.
Actually I keep custom settings for Dota in program settings and keep the Global settings intact. So if I enable vsync globally, my Dota settings via NVCP would be different so Vsync must be off for Dota.

User avatar
jorimt
Posts: 2481
Joined: 04 Nov 2016, 10:44
Location: USA

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by jorimt » 13 Mar 2023, 08:43

bilalirfanpk wrote:
13 Mar 2023, 07:35
I was going through reddit and came across HAGS (Hardware accelerated GPU scheduling), it has always been ON since years for me but I read for many users it causes stutters and turning it off solves all their problems. As HAGS tends to lower down CPU utilization, I feel like maybe its causing system side stuttering in Dota. What if its not letting CPU render the frames that game needs as the game itself is running on old engine utilizing single core. HAGS works well with the newer games and funny thing, all the new games that I play have no issues with Feesync + HAGS ON. It somehow makes sense. I will go back home and check. Kinda excited lmao. Hopefully its the culprit.
HAGS effects can be system-specific, but it has caused more (replicable) stutter for me when on than off across multiple builds, including my current one. I personally only enable it whenever I want to use DLSS3 (where it's currently a requirement).
jorimt wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 15:51
Actually I keep custom settings for Dota in program settings and keep the Global settings intact. So if I enable vsync globally, my Dota settings via NVCP would be different so Vsync must be off for Dota.
That would explain it, if so.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

bilalirfanpk
Posts: 19
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 12:18

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by bilalirfanpk » 13 Mar 2023, 10:40

jorimt wrote:
13 Mar 2023, 08:43
HAGS effects can be system-specific, but it has caused more (replicable) stutter for me when on than off across multiple builds, including my current one. I personally only enable it whenever I want to use DLSS3 (where it's currently a requirement).
I feel slight less stuttering after turning off HAGS, like 30% less. Though 70% still remains. FML.

bilalirfanpk
Posts: 19
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 12:18

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by bilalirfanpk » 14 Mar 2023, 08:00

jorimt wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 15:51
Right, and again, G-SYNC will show frame-pacing issues as-is. It's a 1:1 mirror of system performance (just without tearing), whereas standalone V-SYNC is not.
Sorry to bug you again but just sharing frametime graph to know if what is better.

This is with VSYNC ON + FREESYNC ON + REFLEX ON/BOOST: https://imgur.com/a/R0OGPFm?s=wa
- The graph doesnt have big spikes but this is where I feel that I have continuous micro stuttering/juddering all along and game is not smooth at all. Camera pan is not smooth and is kinda shaky. Characters moving on screen are kinda shaky despite having good amount of fps on screen.
As you can see that FPS and VRR counters are not a 100% match as well. There's always a variance of 2-7 hz or fps which causes the mini stuttering.

This is with SCANLINE SYNC + REFLEX ON/BOOST: https://imgur.com/gallery/vv8ToLX
- This is buttery smooth. Zero stutters. As VRR isn't active and even I checked it while keeping it active, if fps doesn't drop below my max refresh rate, its a day and night difference. Anyhow I just wanted to show graph that how consistent it is.

Thanks.

User avatar
jorimt
Posts: 2481
Joined: 04 Nov 2016, 10:44
Location: USA

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by jorimt » 14 Mar 2023, 08:53

bilalirfanpk wrote:
14 Mar 2023, 08:00
Sorry to bug you again but just sharing frametime graph to know if what is better.
Again, if the game is experiencing frametime jitter, it's normal for VRR to reflect it.

As for the RTSS FPS vs. VRR meter being offset, it's likely due to them not polling at the exact same intervals, which means the reporting on each may end up being a bit out of sync (it is an unofficial add-on after all).

Regarding the frametime graph differences, if you want a more accurate frametime comparison between the two, you should use CapFrameX, since the RTSS frametime graph will almost always show as flat when using it to limit itself (so long as the framerate can be sustained at said limit):
https://www.capframex.com/

What matters between the two scenarios is what you see/feel with or without the readouts; frametime performance is for the sole benefit of the player, after all, not the readouts, which aren't playing the game. I.E. It's easy to correlate what you're seeing on the readouts with what you're seeing on the screen, and, in some cases, it can actually make it "feel" worse than it is.

Beyond that, since I can't replicate your issues in that game on my "OP" system (which will probably be considered only mid-range in 5 years :P), I have little else to offer on this specific game's performance on lower-end systems.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

bilalirfanpk
Posts: 19
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 12:18

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by bilalirfanpk » 15 Mar 2023, 02:43

jorimt wrote:
14 Mar 2023, 08:53
bilalirfanpk wrote:
14 Mar 2023, 08:00
Sorry to bug you again but just sharing frametime graph to know if what is better.
Again, if the game is experiencing frametime jitter, it's normal for VRR to reflect it.

As for the RTSS FPS vs. VRR meter being offset, it's likely due to them not polling at the exact same intervals, which means the reporting on each may end up being a bit out of sync (it is an unofficial add-on after all).

Regarding the frametime graph differences, if you want a more accurate frametime comparison between the two, you should use CapFrameX, since the RTSS frametime graph will almost always show as flat when using it to limit itself (so long as the framerate can be sustained at said limit):
https://www.capframex.com/

What matters between the two scenarios is what you see/feel with or without the readouts; frametime performance is for the sole benefit of the player, after all, not the readouts, which aren't playing the game. I.E. It's easy to correlate what you're seeing on the readouts with what you're seeing on the screen, and, in some cases, it can actually make it "feel" worse than it is.

Beyond that, since I can't replicate your issues in that game on my "OP" system (which will probably be considered only mid-range in 5 years :P), I have little else to offer on this specific game's performance on lower-end systems.
I tried Capframex last night and the graph from scanline wasn't as smooth either as shown by RTSS. Anyhow, I tried 100hz 100fps for a better and smooth gameplay which I got know that this game cannot manage at all if game goes over 50 mins :))
I dropped to 85fps lowest and I had terrible micro stuttering. Did not know that earlier because I was playing on 75hz/75fps before getting this monitor for years so this game was ultra smooth for me and I thought why people even have issues with stuttering lmao.

I guess money wasted. :D

User avatar
jorimt
Posts: 2481
Joined: 04 Nov 2016, 10:44
Location: USA

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by jorimt » 15 Mar 2023, 09:03

bilalirfanpk wrote:
15 Mar 2023, 02:43
I dropped to 85fps lowest and I had terrible micro stuttering. Did not know that earlier because I was playing on 75hz/75fps before getting this monitor for years so this game was ultra smooth for me and I thought why people even have issues with stuttering lmao.

I guess money wasted. :D
Not so much money wasted, as expectations deflated by reality. Unless you can purely brute force it with overkill specs, CPU-limited games like Dota will typically exhibit more stuttering issues with a framerate limited by system performance instead of an FPS limit and/or V-SYNC at the refresh rate.

I.E. while your particular system was able to maintain a consistent 75 FPS/Hz in that game, trying to exceed that with a higher refresh rate monitor on the same system resulted in it being pushed too hard, causing frametime performance issues; even if a weaker system can sustain a higher average framerate, it doesn't necessarily mean said framerate can maintain consistent frametimes.

The higher the refresh rate + sustain framerate, the harder the system has to work, and the more obvious any framerate slowdown or frametime performance issues will be, since the contrast between 165 FPS/Hz and 85 FPS/Hz is much higher than 75 FPS/Hz, to well, 75 FPS/Hz.

Achievable 0.1% and 1% lows in framerates are very important where high frame/refresh rate gaming are concerned.

That said, as you've already witnessed, you should have less frametime performance issues in GPU-limited games on that same system/monitor combo. And again, Dota is not the best example of peak-engine technology, where many (most) players have performance issues at higher frame/refresh rates.

Have you tried 75 FPS 165Hz G-SYNC in Dota to see if it compares to the performance of your old monitor? Because that's always an option for these sorts of games on your system as well.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

bilalirfanpk
Posts: 19
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 12:18

Re: FPS & Variable refresh rate unable to sync in Dota 2

Post by bilalirfanpk » 15 Mar 2023, 12:16

jorimt wrote:
15 Mar 2023, 09:03
Not so much money wasted, as expectations deflated by reality. Unless you can purely brute force it with overkill specs, CPU-limited games like Dota will typically exhibit more stuttering issues with a framerate limited by system performance instead of an FPS limit and/or V-SYNC at the refresh rate.

I.E. while your particular system was able to maintain a consistent 75 FPS/Hz in that game, trying to exceed that with a higher refresh rate monitor on the same system resulted in it being pushed too hard, causing frametime performance issues; even if a weaker system can sustain a higher average framerate, it doesn't necessarily mean said framerate can maintain consistent frametimes.

The higher the refresh rate + sustain framerate, the harder the system has to work, and the more obvious any framerate slowdown or frametime performance issues will be, since the contrast between 165 FPS/Hz and 85 FPS/Hz is much higher than 75 FPS/Hz, to well, 75 FPS/Hz.

Achievable 0.1% and 1% lows in framerates are very important where high frame/refresh rate gaming are concerned.

That said, as you've already witnessed, you should have less frametime performance issues in GPU-limited games on that same system/monitor combo. And again, Dota is not the best example of peak-engine technology, where many (most) players have performance issues at higher frame/refresh rates.
I recently upgraded from 3rd gen to 10th gen and from 1050ti to 2060 last year so I guess I will stick to it and wont be able to overkill it with really high end specs. Not that I cannot afford it but just its not my priority at the moment. I am currently downloading other GPU dependent games like Apex and more and might play less Dota though its an addiction for me. I might enjoy casual FPS gaming in the meantime.
jorimt wrote:
15 Mar 2023, 09:03
Have you tried 75 FPS 165Hz G-SYNC in Dota to see if it compares to the performance of your old monitor? Because that's always an option for these sorts of games on your system as well.
Yes I did try that and the stutter is terrible and unplayable. Not sure why despite VRR is same as FPS and static as well. Here's how it looks. :D https://imgur.com/a/H3DpR9R?s=wa

Post Reply