Blurriness in Overwatch

[masneb]

I don't know if this relates to other games as I mainly play OW2 and there isn't really anything as fast paced as OW2.

Quake Champions is faster paced.

For normal interactions at range, for sure. In close quarters <10ft with fast ability based characters, I would disagree.

is it amd boost? AMD Radeon™ Boost dynamically lowers resolution of the entire frame when fast on-screen character motion is detected via user input, allowing for higher FPS with little perceived impact to quality.

Have a Nvidia GPU, set to always prefer highest refresh, Reflex + boost, highest performance... etc.

It's something that happens purely when mouse input is activated and have tried two mice already. Moving with keyboard doesn't seem to do it and the faster the movement the more the screen seems to blur. So if you're spinning around a training dummy while looking directly at it's chest, it's much more noticeable the faster you go.

If you just move around with arrow keys, movement abilities, tracer dashing, genji dashing screen looks perfect.

[Tell]

https://youtu.be/dal1pPeU3T8?t=6099

This stream is from the OP of this thread, look at his mouse cam and notice it barely moves a single cm while he spins around. It looks fine with keyboard movement but "hazy" with mouse movement because meat bags can't control a sensitivity that high without shaking. There's nothing wrong with the monitor this is just user error.

[masneb]

No idea who you are, as I've not linked any of my socials to these forums or this username in general, but you obviously skulk around my streams. You would've also been there when I brought it up and the amount of time I've spent testing this, 'meatbag' being a term I always use to talk about fleshy human interactions... which is weird because despite the amount of time you've spent watching my streams to pick up on my nuances, you seem to have a bone to pick with me too.

Whole reason we go through testing is to weed out meatbags. You also seemed to miss the post where I pointed out that it doesn't have anything to do with the intricacies of aim, IE if my hand is jittery it will make the aim jittery. There is a direct connection between movement and what the monitor displays... which you can see. Whether or not you think my sensitivity is too high is irrelevant.

My hand doesn't vibrate despite what your mother tells you, that would be the only way it would make it hazy/blurry.

Once again goes back to having to record this and I wasn't insinuating there is something wrong with the monitor (if there was it would be present with keyboard movement as well), I think there is something wrong with the way Overwatch 2 handles input.

[kyube]

try dsc off, cap to 360fps and use highest polling rate possible. you might be sensitive to shit rt's or overwatch makes the bad transitions of the pg248qp more prevalent.

[Chief Blur Buster]

It looks fine with keyboard movement but "hazy" with mouse movement because meat bags can't control a sensitivity that high without shaking. There's nothing wrong with the monitor this is just user error.

There's a Correct Way to do High Sensitivity, and a Wrong Way to do High Sensitivity.

I remind everyone to RESPECT High Sensitivity Users and Low Sensitivity Users.

Yes, they are their own fiefdoms, and I will leave it at that.
BUT there's also some new advice that applies to the 360Hz+ world, for BETTER high sensitivity.

Instead of telling a user to switch sensitivities, I tell users to rebalance sensitivities (while remaining high) to fix the problem. Users will generally prefer to stick to their muscle memories, for different gaming tactics. Most pros are low-sensitivity users, but some pros are high-sensitivity.

Please read below:

Low Mouse DPI is One Cause Of Mouseturn Motion Blur At 360Hz+
(TL;DR: fast mouse jitter, like 100 mouse jitters/sec = extra blur, like fast-vibrating music string)

So I recently bought a PG248QP and in general it's pretty fantastic. One thing I'm attempting to finally nail down is this last bit in OW2. I've tried all the various modes including Gsync/ULMB/normal at 240-540hz and one thing that's immediately noticeable is mouse movement. When you move your mouse in Overwatch, the game immediately becomes hazy.

One common problem that I know (that most esports players didn't know) with mouse motion blur is high frequency mouse jitter. The jitter that vibrates too fast and simply blends to extra blur (like a fast-vibrating music/piano/harp/guitar string)

(when eyetracking the pan of a mouseturn)

See TestUFO stutter to blur continuum animation, stare at the 2nd UFO for 30 seconds and observe stutters is the same thing as persistence blur. It's simply a matter of frequency. Like slow vibrating music string (SHAKY) versus fast vibrating music string (BLUR).

Imagine 100 erratic microstutters per second at 400fps. Microstuttering (uneven pixel stepping) beyond flicker fusion threshold is extra blur (like a fast vibrating music string). This can add extra blurs. The music string slow-vibrate (stutter) and fast-vibrate (blur) applies to anything like regular stutter (perfect frame pacing) or the harmonic/erratic stutters (imperfect framepacing or bad mouse settings etc), if you have those frequencies beyond flicker fusion, they're extra persistence blurs during eye tracking.

Proper 360Hz+ High Sensitivity Setting Hygeine
If you use a high edpi sensitivity, make sure:
(A) High DPI setting
(B) High poll rate (not too high, just highest the game can tolerate, e.g. 1KHz or 2KHz or 4KHz).
(C) Lower in-game sensitivity
(D) Adjust Windows mouse slider to slow down your mouse pointer, without affecting your mouseturn speed*
*Caveat: You're not running older games like World of Warcraft that has mouseturn affected by item D

Expected Result
Unchanged fast flick turn and unchanged pointer speed, but your slowturn mouse jitters / motionblur disappears. This happens if if the mouse sensor is modern, mouse feet is fresh/clean, and mousepad is good -- you continue to get your classic 400-800dpi feel and same slow mouse pointer, despite being 1600-3200dpi. Muscle memory preserved, but miraculously, slowtracks is MUCH better. Easier snipering, easy slow-tracking (e.g. shooting airplanes in Fortnite). Your mouse motion blur DISSAPPEARS. Your fast flicks then feels unchanged (if it's working properly), but your slow mouse movements runs at a much higher frame rate. And your short mouse movements no longer feels 'blurry'.

This still behaves as super-high-sensitivity, because you've put the sensitivity into the DPI (to keep up with the refresh rate race) while adjusting in-game sensitivity to compensate for the higher DPI instead.

By adjusting this way, you reduce a lot of high-frequency mouse microstutter/beatfrequencying/harmonics.

I respect people who prefer high sensitivity or low sensitivity.

I'm a medium sensitivity user (~1600-3200dpi) simply because I don't want to sabotage my framerate during slowtracks. 400dpi means you only have 100 mouse position updates per second if you drag your mouse only 0.25 inches, that's only 100 frames per second, you're not milking your Ultra Hz monitor, and you're adding extra blurs sometimes (depending on mouse settings).

That's why you need high DPI to keep up with the refresh rate race with the extra pixels on displays (1440P and 4K) & extra refresh rate. 400-800 used to be fine up to roughly ~240Hz, but beyond 240Hz, it's shooting onself in the foot (unless an older engine isn't flexible enough to feel good at your existing muscle memory above 800).

The problem is muscle memory, and turbo mouse pointers. But if you've discontinued your old non-rawinput games (e.g. World of Warcraft etc), it's now safe to adjust the mouse sensitivity in Windows Contron Panel to slow down your mouse pointer during 3200dpi situation, just turn off "Enhance Mouse Pointer Precision". It won't interfere with your rawinput games that will honor your highDPI-highPoll-lowSens combo recommended if you like short mouse movements + also hate the granular-feel.

Use a mouse sensitivity calculator like www.mouse-sensitivity.com to sync your muscle memories between games, so you can make 1600dpi or 3200dpi feel like 400dpi (etc), including keeping mouse pointers slow. It'll prevent mouseturn motion blur (caused by high-frequency jittering) during ultra-Hz situations. 400-800dpi sadly often sabotages motion fluidity of 360-480Hz+

CS:GO was the gold standard for feeling best at 400-800 DPI. Old engines was easier to fix mousefeel with at 400-800dpi, and odd things happened with higher. For various obscure reasons, like less precise mouse mathematics in older engines, especially if you weren't using cleanly-divisible numbers from a mouse sensitivity calculator. Some could do 1600dpi+ properly well in older engines (if you used a sensitivity calculator & stuck to round numbers that didn't interfere with the low-precision mouse mathematics), but 1600dpi is more universally in newer game engines.

As CS:GO has already move to CS2, and CS2 is more 1600dpi friendly, it is slowly time for the esports world to sunset the 400-800dpi settings common to 240Hz esports players. And why stay at 1600, you could try 2000-3200, the sensors are getting good at these settings as long as you're using an ultra-precise mousepad designed to be extremely smooth at high DPI.

Honestly, for the sake of refresh rate race, it's time to move on since the big "400-800dpi" gorilla is now gone. There's fewer reasons to hold back now. Sticking to 400-800dpi reduces motion quality of 360-480Hz+ by adding mouse motion blur (caused by extra persistence caused by high-frequency mouse jittering beyond flicker fusion threshold, like a blurry fast-vibrating music string)

If you look at esports players, most older CS:GO esports players never went above 800, but a lot of Fortnite players use 1000 and above. The age of the engine has a lot of influence on how well it handles high-precision mouse mathematics. Valorant/Overwatch/Fortnite/CS2 seems to be more highDPI friendly now.

[masneb]

try dsc off, cap to 360fps and use highest polling rate possible. you might be sensitive to shit rt's or overwatch makes the bad transitions of the pg248qp more prevalent.

I tried 240hz as I was thinking the same thing as far as DSC possibly effecting image quality, but once again the difference is between mouse movement and no mouse movement.

I have considered mouse mouse jitter as well, but I don't think that's the case. This is also more likely then 'your sensitivity too high', as mouse movement is directional, regardless of sens, and can be easily identified in the footage. Jitter in input or error in the sensor is not.

I'm actually thinking this might actually be the games anti-cheat that's designed to combat image recognition aimbots (now called AI) they announced years ago. Not that it works at that, but possibly what this is.

I'll also have to test something like Apex, this is pretty easy to test, just don't have a setup for cam footage or have time, which is why I made a post here to see what other peoples experience was.

[Tell]

It looks fine with keyboard movement but "hazy" with mouse movement because meat bags can't control a sensitivity that high without shaking. There's nothing wrong with the monitor this is just user error.

There's a Correct Way to do High Sensitivity, and a Wrong Way to do High Sensitivity.

I remind everyone to RESPECT High Sensitivity Users and Low Sensitivity Users.

Yes, they are their own fiefdoms, and I will leave it at that.
BUT there's also some new advice that applies to the 360Hz+ world, for BETTER high sensitivity.

Instead of telling a user to switch sensitivities, I tell users to rebalance sensitivities (while remaining high) to fix the problem. Users will generally prefer to stick to their muscle memories, for different gaming tactics. Most pros are low-sensitivity users, but some pros are high-sensitivity.

This isn't about respecting preferences this is someone unintentionally sabotaging their game-play by using horrible settings. The OP is using an in-game sens of 34 with 8600 dpi and wondering why mouse movement is acting oddly.

There is a wide range of sensitivities used by pros in every game that is true but going too far in either direction is going to cause problems. This person is using settings many times higher than anyone can control properly. I encourage anyone to launch overwatch and try using 34 x 8600 dpi just to experience how insane these settings are. In this case telling someone to switch sensitivities is the correct advice even just to troubleshoot the problem temporarily.

[masneb]

So lets use a bit of logic here.

Mouse movement is directional, meaning every way you move your hand results in a equal movement on screen. Sens and DPI is multiplicative on these effects. Therefore for the screen to be 'blurry' or 'hazy', my hand would have to exhibit said behavior. Furthermore you'd be able to slow down the video (which you can) and see each one of these movements in detail. For me to go omni-directional, meaning my hand is going multiple directions, so fast, that the overall directional change is basically non-existent (as it doesn't effect my aim) in unison to produce a blurry or hazy effect, my hand would literally need to be vibrating. Even parkinsons can't do this, which I don't have.

Your logic doesn't even make sense as you can't point out said behavior besides 'it has to be this way'. Your misconstruing and misunderstanding the difference between jitter in aim and something being hazy/blurry screen effect. There is no way human hand movement can cause that.

Also tested on lower sens, it doesn't change anything.


As far as 'Unintentionally sabotaging their gameplay', lol... You don't even mention me leading the score boards on a per match basis or accuracy, which is on par with T500 players or higher... regardless of that not having anything to do with what we're discussing here. Stick to the argument not to ad hominems.

Your inability to control high sens or DPI has nothing to do with me, nor what I'm discussing. Also thanks for the compliment.

[Chief Blur Buster]

This isn't about respecting preferences this is someone unintentionally sabotaging their game-play by using horrible settings. The OP is using an in-game sens of 34 with 8600 dpi and wondering why mouse movement is acting oddly.

OP, are you using 8600 dpi, or 800 dpi? (8600=common Internet typo)?

If 800, that's too low for 360Hz without slowturn mouse jitter;
If 8600, that might explain the OTHER part of things; it's not a very clean DPI number for a mouse sensor.

Mouse motion blur can occur with both! (high-frequency jitter from mouse mathematics problems) High-frequency stutter/jitter (vibrating faster than flicker fusion threshold) from bad mouse mathematics, can also be additional persistence motion blur too.

If you want to use the stratospheres of dpi -- they actually sometimes help champions yes but it must be handled CAREFULLY -- try using the numbers that are divisible by your mouse sensor rates and internal max-DPI rate (e.g. if a mouse sensor maxes out at 64000dpi or 12800dpi, use a lower DPI number that cleanly divides that, the number 8600 will produce unclean mouse mathematics). For example, many sensors use 24KHz readout, so using rounder numbers may produce better mouse mathematics (internally in mouse firmware, and in mouse drivers, and in-game). That's often incidentally why 4KHz and lower often 'feels' better than 8KHz.

- Odd DPI numbers sometimes feels odd (interpolated) with mouse firmwares.
- Some games don't like ultralow or ultrahigh numbers

YMMV of course, but even 8000dpi (in theory) can be better than 800. But 8600 is a rather odd number that may produce wonky mouse mathematics (round-off/interpolation effects) in mouse firmwares.

Stratospheric DPI numbers CAN WORK, but they do need to be calibrated carefully within the capabilities (mouse sensor, mouse firmware, mousepad, mouse feet, mouse drivers, game, game engine).

The mouse mathematics is only as good as the weakest link.

If there is NO WEAK LINK, then 8000dpi is capable of out-competing 800dpi (CONFIRMED) in the refresh rate race (I've seen it happen). The problem is WEAK LINKS. Which ALMOST always happens.

Metaphorically: Don't operate a complex airplane cockpit without flight training (intimate knowledge of settings etc), yadda, yadda... It's not as easy as a paper airplane or Air Hogs toy. It's easy to go wrong with stratospheric DPI settings (even if I've seen 8000dpi or 6400dpi work better than 800dpi in the past).

BTW, 6400dpi is usually more compatible than 8600dpi with most mouse sensors, and is more muscle-memory-preserving for ex-400/ex-800 users, with a proper decimal scaledown of sensitivity settings (e.g. 800dpi x 1sens versus 6400dpi x 0.125sens with 3-digit sensitivity number configuration rather than 1-decimal-digit sensitivity number configuration). However, your mousepad and mouse feet will have to be particularly clean, because while your slowtracks are going to become AMAZING, it will also jitter on every nanoparticle on your mousepad. So up your mousepad-quality game, if you want to out-compete 800dpi users with 6400dpi... It's a tad aggressive but I've seen out-championing before.

Some sensitivity settings in game menus will only let you adjust 1 decimal digits, THAT WILL NOT HELP YOUR MUSCLE MEMORY. If dividing your sensitivity number by 8 and it requires 3 or 4 or 5 decimal digits (to scale 800dpi -> 6400dpi for muscle memory preservation), you must must find a way to manually edit a .CFG file to add those extra decimal digits!!! Plus, your turbo mouse arrow will need to be slowed down by other means too (to get the same 800dpi feel). No choice.

However, it's risky for mouse mathematics in-game. Things easily go wonky in many games, if they're using lower-precision integers or floats for internal mouse mathematics. Try to stick to sensitivity numbers that doesn't require that many digits.

In computer programming, mouse mathtmatics sometimes is calculated inside the firmware and inside the game engines using various data types such as:

int32 datatype = up to 65536 different integers
int64 datatype = up to 4294967296 different integers
float datatype = only 6 to 7 decimal digits
double datatype = 15 decimal digits

The best game engines use the 'double' datatype for interim mouse mathematics, but many older engines such as CS:GO do not! Which means math roundoff-errors in computer programming of the video game engine, creating wonky mouse movements.

Conclusion: If you must go into dpi stratospheres, try to use clean numbers that don't produce many decimal digits when:
(A) Dividing mouse's max DPI by your preferred DPI; should result in an integer. And if possible, a simple power-of-two integer (ideally); and
(B) Not too many non-zero digits when multiplying dpi by sensitivity; and
(C) Dividing your mouse sensitivity number when scaling away from your old 400dpi-800dpi routine.
Note: The adjusted sensitivity number should be a very mathematically clean number (0.125 or 4 or 10 or 16 is better than 0.13423453 or 3 or 9 or 11 or 17), preferably not an odd number nor containing too many decimal digits

This is not a 100% hard-and-fast rule, but using utilities such as www.mouse-sensitivity.com will help. I'm just telling you different game engines will have more wonky mouse mathematics than other. This advice may or may not be bad for specific games (there's line-item exceptions sadly), but keeping your numbers clean will make your mousefeel much better.

The best combos will perfectly scale 6400dpi feeling as if it was 800dpi (and if you slow down your mouse pointer to stay 800dpi-like, via other means),

The worst combos will just make the game UNPLAYABLE.

This doesn't always help, but it helps some engines, some mouse drivers, and some mouse firmwares. IT TAKES ONLY ONE WEAK FOR DPI STRATOSPHERSE TO FAIL. But it can work, if you find the magic settings!

Which is why sometimes 1600dpi "sometimes didnt work well in CS:GO" and why "sometimes it worked well in CS:GO".

But newer engines have more precise mouse mathematics, but they are not always 100% perfectly precise, and I am finally starting to see champions at 6400dpi (and up). So high-DPI is alive and well in esports, it just requires:

1. Better mouse sensor
2. Better mouse firmware
3. Better precision mousepad
4. Clean mouse feet
5. Better mouse drivers
6. Better game/mouse/windows settings
7. Better game engine

It must be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 concurrently for 6400dpi users to out-compete 800dpi users (truth!)
Otherwise, the 800dpi users win.

Just make (if you go into the stratospheres) you don't accidentally use numbers that will produce weirdnesses (math roundoffs / high-frequency jitters that turns into blur / etc). I've seen mouse motion blur occur with high DPI before, because of high-frequency mathematics roundoff errors.

But I will close out: The new esports gold standard should be far above 800dpi now for 360Hz+ users.

[mxblue]

I was pretty into OW for a little while and played hitscan using 2.6 sens x 1600 DPI, which very average - right in the middle of most pro settings, this is an eDPI of 4,160. At 34 x 8,600.

Op is at 292,400 - this is 70x what I consider average eDPI.

Question to OP - I mean this in a completely respectful way, i'm genuinely curious. What is the logic behind 34 sens x 8600 DPI? I see you're playing Phara in the video which i'm assuming benefits from a higher DPI, but 34 x 8,600 is wild to me. How did you get there? Like did you slowly keep increasing DPI over time and found you performed better? Just trying to understand, not throwing shade.