any chances to get crt motion quality at 60hz? [YES: it is!]

[3dfan]

wow, im learning lot of things on this site.

Scientifically, for the ultra clear arcade-smooth-look, you want:
strobe rate (flicker rate) == frame rate == refresh rate.

until now, i believed only at 60fps 60hz on crt you were able to get life like motion perception, i did a test creating a custom resolution with the lowest refresh rate my crt monitor supports (48hz) and wow!! testing on a 3d game at 48fps did the same perception in does at 60 fps 60hz, my first though was i would get those 12 fps difference for free!!! but you know, the fickering at that frequency is noticiable and annoying, even on games, so that would be a high cost to get 12fps for "free".

75fps@75Hz only requires about 25% more GPU power.

unfortunatelly, that "small" 25% difference in performance, is much more higher translated to money cost.

from what i have researched, the difference between a gtx 770 and a gtx 780 TI is aproximately that 25%,
but a gtx 770 according to amazon, costs US $315

http://www.amazon.com/PNY-GeForce-Displ ... foforum-20 (at the moment i pasted the link)

and the gtx 780 TI is Us $673
http://www.amazon.com/PNY-Enthusiast-VC ... foforum-20 (at the moment i pasted the link)
that is more than twice the price difference for only a 25% performance difference.

my knowledge on monitor technical techcnology is poor and i know i need to read more to better understand all this, but i see people complain about 60hz being too flicker to be considered, but as i wrote i dont notice it on my crt (lg flatron ez t71osh) unless i get very close to the screen on a white background it is barely noticiable, and it does not bother me, even in games is absolutelly not noticiable, i also asked my uncle, who was using a crt monitor and recently got a 24 inches led monitor, both working at 60hz, if he did percive a flickering on his current and older crt monitor, and answered "no". i also see all current monitors i ve seen works at 60hz, and when i ask their owners if they notice a flickering, they also anwer "no"


i would like to ask another question: i see non crt monitor image quality gets blurry, even static ones if you dont use their native resolution, something that does not occur in crts, you think this also some day can be fixed on the non crt monitors? or this is just how those work.

sorry if i am asking too much questions or being to stubborn. i know i need to read more about monitor tech to better undestand it, thank you!! always loved crt monitor perfection and im really happy to see people on this site walking to the path of true crt monitors succesor development.

[TSM]

The bigger problem with running above 60hz are those games that are engine locked at 60hz. You have games like Sonic Adventure 2 that run at a multiple of the normal speed when forced past 60hz. Then you also have a game like Bit Trip Beat which is nearly unplayable at 120hz with lightboost on due to the "razor sharp ghosting". For such games a 60hz lightboost mode would be perfect for those of us willing to subject ourselves to the flicker for the sake of image quality.

Manufacturers protecting us from ourselves is rather annoying in this case. Either a hidden option or nag screen when entering such a mode would be preferable to not having the option at all.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Scientifically, for the ultra clear arcade-smooth-look, you want:
strobe rate (flicker rate) == frame rate == refresh rate.

until now, i believed only at 60fps 60hz on crt you were able to get life like motion perception, i did a test creating a custom resolution with the lowest refresh rate my crt monitor supports (48hz) and wow!! testing on a 3d game at 48fps did the same perception in does at 60 fps 60hz, my first though was i would get those 12 fps difference for free!!! but you know, the fickering at that frequency is noticiable and annoying, even on games, so that would be a high cost to get 12fps for "free".

There can be extra input lag at lower frame rates. Also don't forget you can get more stroboscopic effect / wagonwheel effect / mouse dropping effect, at lower strobe rates even if you don't see the flicker. So higher framerate=refreshrate still has benefits above-and-beyond the CRT-effect.

This is correct, you get the "CRT effect" whenever framerate matches refreshrate matches stroberate on any flicker/strobed display technology (also known as an impulse-driven display) including CRT, plasma, LightBoost, ULMB.

75fps@75Hz only requires about 25% more GPU power.

unfortunatelly, that "small" 25% difference in performance, is much more higher translated to money cost.

You can decrease detail settings, to get 25% more improvement too.
Also the 770 can be overclocked to 780 speeds, as well.

it does not bother me, even in games is absolutelly not noticiable, i also asked my uncle, who was using a crt monitor and recently got a 24 inches led monitor, both working at 60hz, if he did percive a flickering on his current and older crt monitor, and answered "no". i also see all current monitors i ve seen works at 60hz, and when i ask their owners if they notice a flickering, they also anwer "no"

That's good that 60Hz flicker doesn't bother you and your family. However, this will behave a bit differently with LCD strobe backlights versus CRT phosphor, they need to strobe a at a higher rate to compensate for the sudden ON-OFF behavior of the backlight strobing, compared to the softer fade-out of CRT phosphor. Sometimes LCD strobe backlight flicker is as easy to notice at 75Hz (or sometimes easier) as a CRT is at about 60Hz, so using LCD strobe backlight 60Hz could feel like using a CRT at the ~48Hz you tested.

i would like to ask another question: i see non crt monitor image quality gets blurry, even static ones if you dont use their native resolution, something that does not occur in crts, you think this also some day can be fixed on the non crt monitors? or this is just how those work.

That's definitely a behavior of flat panel LCDs, they always look their best at their native resolution. Scaling can look better when you're using really high DPIs (e.g. Retina displays), but scaling at current common computer resolutions, does look terrible.

Either way, you're looking at making sure your graphics card can push 1920x1080 at least the frame rate of your monitor's minimum strobe rate (e.g. LightBoost 100Hz, Turbo240 105Hz, ULMB 85Hz, BENQ Blur Reduction 75Hz) to get the CRT effect you're seeking.

[James Freeman]

Scientifically, for the ultra clear arcade-smooth-look, you want:
strobe rate (flicker rate) == frame rate == refresh rate.

Definitely.

I've tested with 24 + 2*BFI @ 72Hz.
Every frame of the movie was shown only 1/3 of the time (41.7/ = 13.9ms) the rest is 2 black frames.
Smoothest video experience I have ever seen, even smoother than how they project in cinemas.

I think your brain completes the missing information, resulting in an extremely smooth look even at 24fps.
Almost looks like HFR (high frame rate).

Manufacturers are reluctant to do fully hardware based 60Hz strobing necessary to give 60fps the motion clarity improvement. This may happen eventually as an advanced user adjustment hidden behind a healthy warning screen, I am trying to convince multiple monitor manufacturers, but no traction so far at 60Hz.

I'd like me some epilepsy inducing 24Hz, 48Hz & 72Hz strobing for maximum cinematinc experience.

[masterotaku]

I've tested with 24 + 2*BFI @ 72Hz.
Every frame of the movie was shown only 1/3 of the time (41.7/ = 13.9ms) the rest is 2 black frames.
Smoothest video experience I have ever seen, even smoother than how they project in cinemas.

Please, can you tell us how you did that? Even if my monitor isn't strobed, that would get rid of 66% of motion blur when watching 24fps videos at 72Hz.

[James Freeman]

MPC-HC with fddshow avisynth script.

[Haruspex]

Very interesting thread, i was under the wrong impression that a crt behaves perfectly even if your framerate doesn't match your display refresh rate, of course it's always better to get for example 85hz/85fps instead of avg 65 fps with minimum 50 fps at 85hz.

But i thought the negative effect was much more pronounced in a lcd strobing display compared to an old pc crt monitor.

Glad to see that display manufacturers and nvidia are adding support for strobing at lower refresh rates.

I remember that 60hz at my old crt was awful, i couldn't stand it, only after 75hz and above was acceptable, 85hz at least for my eyes was flicker free, and from what i read here 60hz strobing in a lcd is even worse, so for me 60hz strobing is unacceptable, but they should give the option for people that don't notice the flicker.

I will not be surprised if people release hacks that unlock these limitations.

[3dfan]

good to know 60hz equivalent on strobed lcd is like 48hz on crt, which means really bad flicker, things are getting more clear with all that info.

however im not in a rush to get a widescreen monitor yet , i will wait more time to see how those gaming monitors keep developing, good to know it is now posible to get crt motion clarity on widescreen monitor at 75hz at least, big performance gain against 120hz and much more easier on the pocket without the need to sacrifice much of the graphics quality and also on the hardware (even on the overlocked one).

[vanden]

I've tested with 24 + 2*BFI @ 72Hz.
Every frame of the movie was shown only 1/3 of the time (41.7/ = 13.9ms) the rest is 2 black frames.
Smoothest video experience I have ever seen, even smoother than how they project in cinemas.
I think your brain completes the missing information, resulting in an extremely smooth look even at 24fps.
Almost looks like HFR (high frame rate).

I also tested ... but for me 24 + 2*BFI @ 72Hz or 24 + 3*BFI @ 96Hz is not watchable !
there are too flicker.

Here is an excerpt from a real movie or I see clearly the double-image effect (original 24fps) :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/Home.Test-001.mkv

The same 2x faster (original 48fps)
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu ... 48fps).mkv

On my screen I see double-image effect on this 2 files ("original 24fps"/"original 48fps") ...

BFI :
96fps (original 48fps + 1 BlackFrameInsertion) :
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu ... omex2).mkv

144fps (original 48fps (Doubled) + 1 BlackFrameInsertion) :
https://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiq ... omex2).mkv

144fps (original 48fps + 2 BlackFrameInsertion) :
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu ... omex2).mkv

- On my screen "96fps (original 48fps + 1 BlackFrameInsertion)" remove completly the double-image effect ... But the brightness is divided by two and there is a little flicker (CRT).

- "144fps (original 48fps (Doubled) + 1 BlackFrameInsertion) " only 1/3 of brightness are lost and double-image effect is reduced (but visible) and there are no flicker.

- "144fps (original 48fps + 2 BlackFrameInsertion) " remove completly the double-image effect ... But the brightness is divided by 2/3 and there is a little flicker (CRT).

Note :
It's possible to completly remove the double-image effect on "original 24fps" by inserting Black Frames : (original 24fps + 2 BlackFrameInsertion @ 72Hz or original 24fps + 3 BlackFrameInsertion @ 96Hz) but flicker is unbearable !!

[masterotaku]

I've tested with 24 + 2*BFI @ 72Hz.
Every frame of the movie was shown only 1/3 of the time (41.7/ = 13.9ms) the rest is 2 black frames.
Smoothest video experience I have ever seen, even smoother than how they project in cinemas.
I think your brain completes the missing information, resulting in an extremely smooth look even at 24fps.
Almost looks like HFR (high frame rate).

Exactly what I tested. My Avisynth script is:

Original = last
Black=Original.Blankclip()
Interleave(Original,Black,Black)

I just have to modify how many blacks there are after the original frame (in this case two black frames).
It feels like videos play at 72fps, with a lot less motion blur than non strobed. It's like the fps counter in my eyes counts persistence, instead of just fps. You just have to "see through the black frames". Dark scenes are very watchable, but when a bright color is shown, it's painful.

When the BenQ issue is solved, playing games at 120fps with motion blur reduction should feel like a lot more fps .

I've been thinking: with BenQ motion blur reduction at 0.5ms, watching 24fps videos with black frame insertion would be very very dark. 0.5ms*24fps = 12ms of image per second. That would be 1.2% of screen brightness compared to non strobed mode . You would be looking at a black screen 98.8% of the time.