any chances to get crt motion quality at 60hz? [YES: it is!]

[3dfan]

hello all, im a crt lover since the ages of arcade racing games where games such daytona usa running at 60fps gave an amazing life like motion perception on crt, i still use a crt for my desktop and gaming (play games such crysis 3 tomb raider, etc) and love the same life like smooth movement at 60fps i experience.

im happy with my monitor, for me is better than any lcd, led, plasma i´ve seen which are plagued with boring ghosting - motion blur that ruins the perseption of life like movement at 60fps, giving the illusion that the games are only running at 30 fps.
the only cons i see on my crt is that it only supports 4 3 resolutions, i can play games at 16 9 aspect ratios, but you know, i lose up and down viewing area, which makes the games look smaller, this is the only thing i like more from current widescreen monitors, but i simply wont like to sacrifice the size for a loss of life like motion perfection i have loved since the 60fps 3d gaming begginigs.

i was resigned to miss a good size 16 9 crt quality gaming experiecnce for the rest of my live since i have seen very poor motion ghosting - motion blur improvments over actuall comercial monitors, until i found this site which awake my hopes.

however, those hopes were banished when i read, that the only way to get a close crt quality motion perfection on an actual 16 9 display (besides other requirements)is to render games at a very high ridiculous 120fps requirement just to achieve what a very old tech crt can achieve at 60fps.

i have researched about it a lot and i know there were or are few crt widescreen monitors such sony ones, but that are out of stock or already sold.

well, basicaly my question, is, if you, motion blur experts think there are any hopes a comercial dysplay (asus or whatever brand) will some day be able to get crt motion quality at 60hz? i know this is a hard to anwser question, but since i found this site i have my fingers crossed, even if we have to wait a good while.

thank you for this site, its good to know there are many people like me that hate ghosting - motion blur. and expect monitor manufacturers to focus better on this issue.

[RealNC]

No, I don't think so. 60Hz flickers badly (I never used 60Hz on my CRT, it was horrible; only 80Hz and up was OK), so I don't think manufacturers will ever target it.

[3dfan]

well, i think my question is not correclty asked

not exactlty 60hz, but 60fps, what i really wanted to ask is:

will we be able to get crt motion quality at 60fps? some day as it is on the crts? (not necesary 60hz, but at 60 frames per second instead of 120fps)

[RealNC]

AFAIK, it already works that way: http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic ... t=10#p1610

So a 120Hz LCD with strobed backlight displaying 60FPS content would look similar (still not exactly the same, but similar) to a 120Hz CRT displaying the same content.

[Chief Blur Buster]

UPDATE March 26th, 2014:
Yes! CRT-clarity 60Hz strobing is NOW HERE!
Version 2 of BENQ Z-Series Monitors can do it.
See new thread

hello all, im a crt lover since the ages of arcade racing games where games such daytona usa running at 60fps gave an amazing life like motion perception on crt, i still use a crt for my desktop and gaming (play games such crysis 3 tomb raider, etc) and love the same life like smooth movement at 60fps i experience.

Welcome to BlurBusters! You have come to the right place.

however, those hopes were banished when i read, that the only way to get a close crt quality motion perfection on an actual 16 9 display (besides other requirements)is to render games at a very high ridiculous 120fps requirement just to achieve what a very old tech crt can achieve at 60fps.

Not necessarily.
LightBoost simply looks best at 120fps because it is 120Hz

Scientifically, for the ultra clear arcade-smooth-look, you want:
strobe rate (flicker rate) == frame rate == refresh rate.
This magic formula gives you the CRT style motion clarity nirvana, on any flicker/strobed display, CRT, plama, lightboost, etc.

The chief problem used to be that Lightboost behaved like a fixed frequency CRT only supporting 120hz, so you needed 120fps to achieve the nirvana. Fortunately, 2014 is solving the problem with LightBoost clones:

BENQ Z-series Blur Reduction: Can strobe down to 75Hz minimum
BENQ Z-series Blur Reduction Version 2: Can strobe down to 50Hz minimum
ULMB found in GSYNC displays: Can strobe down to 85Hz minimum
LightBoost: Already can strobe down to 100Hz minimum
EIZO Turbo240: can strobe down to 105Hz minimum

So you could play 85fps at 85hz on ULMB for the "zero motion blur" experience.

Consider raising your expectations to above 60Hz, and you will now be able to get what you want. Be noted though, wait for the newer BENQ shipments with the fixed firmwares if you decide on the BENQ. Currently, ULMB (or color-corrected lightboost) is higher quality compared to the buggy strobe mode in the first batch of XL2720Z units. 60Hz flickers too much especially with the harsher on-off cycles of a full strobe backlight compared to softer CRT phosphor decay, so you want at least a 20 percent higher refresh rate.

60Hz LightBoost can be simulated by blocking every other strobe with a software based black frame. MAME and some emulators now do this to give you 60Hz equivalent of strobing, http://www.blurbusters.com/mame
Manufacturers are reluctant to do fully hardware based 60Hz strobing necessary to give 60fps the motion clarity improvement. This may happen eventually as an advanced user adjustment hidden behind a healthy warning screen, I am trying to convince multiple monitor manufacturers, but no traction so far at 60Hz.

If you decide you are ready to enter the world of strobe backlights, check out http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/120hz-monitors

Hope this helps!

[RealNC]

Actually the OP's question was identical to mine (except I was asking about 30FPS.) It's about running 60FPS content on 120Hz modes. In the thread I linked to, I believe it was established that CRTs would work the same as a strobed LCD.

So the issue is not improving on CRTs, but matching them.

[3dfan]

thanks you for you info,
interesting data you got there, so, there seem worth to keep my hopes alive, at least for 75hz, 85hz.
still would prefer to be at 60hz, (due to the expensive cost to get a system able to maintan constan 75 - 85 fps,) also because i use my crt monitor at 60hz for decades and the flikering does not bother me, nor my eyes, its only barely noticiable if i get very close to the screen on a white picture, as a matter of fact, when playing 3d games at 60fps 60hz, i do not notice the flickering at all.

i did some test setting the refresh rate to 75 and 85, and playing a game at limited 60fps to see how it feels on my crt since you say it would be a comparable experiecne on a strobed lcd, but it still wont convince me, frames seem to stutter, similar to 30fps. maybe im too demanding hehehe.

its a shame manufacturers seems not interested on 60hz, according to what i understood from you chief, however, at 75 - 85hz are good improvment news.

[Chief Blur Buster]

i did some test setting the refresh rate to 75 and 85, and playing a game at limited 60fps to see how it feels on my crt since you say it would be a comparable experiecne on a strobed lcd, but it still wont convince me, frames seem to stutter, similar to 30fps. maybe im too demanding hehehe.

Regardless of CRT or strobed LCD, for the best-looking smooth motion (e.g. VSYNC ON):

60fps@60Hz is good
75fps@75Hz is good
85fps@85Hz is good

60fps@85Hz is bad for stutter
85fps@60Hz is bad for stutter
75fps@85Hz is bad for stutter
etc.

75fps@75Hz only requires about 25% more GPU power.

[lol37]

phosphor on TV's CRT have more persistence than monitor CRT, so that's why flicker is more percievable on a monitor CRT
so if would be a 60hz strobing mode for an LCD just use a longer strobing flash, the motion clarity won't variate dramatically

[Chief Blur Buster]

phosphor on TV's CRT have more persistence than monitor CRT, so that's why flicker is more percievable on a monitor CRT

Correct. The phosphor decay speed also play a role.

There's extra variables such as the decay ramp versus square-wave strobing, that affects perceived flicker. As a result, 60Hz via squarewave LED strobing is easier to see flicker than 60Hz via CRT phosphor, because it is sudden-fast-ON, sudden-fast-OFF, rather than soft phoshpor decay curve (dim to black). So 60Hz strobe backlight flickers more than 60Hz CRT TV and 60Hz CRT monitor. So as a safety margin strobe backlights need higher Hz to compensate.