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NO way this is normal screent tearing.

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NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Frs4ken » 20 Sep 2017, 14:43

Every game i play with vsync off on my new rig get's EXTREME tearing, the game legit feels like it's running at sub 30fps (can't stand vsync input lag because i play shooters) no way this is normal. I have some high speed footage of the tearing or whatever it is.

phpBB [video]


and

phpBB [video]
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 20 Sep 2017, 16:11

Hello and welcome to Blur Busters forums!

(BTW, I fixed your YouTube Markdown code into UBB code ([/video] format tags) to make your videos show up as embedded)

Unfortunately, it's normal during "camera spinning" situations where camera orbits an object. This forces rapid panning of background, which amplifies tearing visibility. I have analyzed your video, frame by frame, and tearing is extremely visible at 60Hz during spinning situations. This is actually normal tearing for 60Hz. What is happening is that you're doing a spinning angle in third-person view, and this is well-known to me as a method of amplifying visibility of tearing -- it's the type of motion you are doing.

To reduce visibility of tearing, you'll want to consider:

1. Try getting a higher refresh rate monitor, like one from Official List of Best Gaming Monitors.
The higher the refresh rate, the less visible tearing is because the tearline is only visible for (1/Hz)th of a second. At 240Hz, a tearline is visible for only one-quarter the time period as at 60Hz. At 120Hz, a tearline is visible for only one-half the time period as at 120Hz. The tearing visibility in your video is normal; I've seen it before for ~100-150fps at 60Hz during "camera spinning" situations.

2. Alternatively, try a Low-Lag VSYNC ON trick. It might be low lag enough for you.

3. Alternatively, try 240Hz GSYNC. You get stutterfree, tearingfree, and lag nearly matching VSYNC OFF! (unlike 60Hz GSYNC) Finally low enough for eSports. There's almost no lag difference between GSYNC and VSYNC OFF when the refresh rate is set to 240Hz, observe the 1000fps VSYNC OFF result (in both) compared to frame-capped GSYNC.

Image

(From GSYNC 101: Input Lag Tests of 240Hz which also tested VSYNC OFF input lag too at 60Hz versus 240Hz).

Also, remember that our tests have been showing same framerate at higher Hz has less lag. Which means 100fps@240Hz has less input lag than 100fps@144Hz, so the use of 240Hz has competitive benefits even if you can't do full 240fps.
-- Higher fps at same Hz is lower lag
-- Higher Hz at same fps is lower lag
-- Doing both is best (higher fps and higher Hz) but doing just one or the other still lowers input lag.
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Frs4ken » 20 Sep 2017, 21:56

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Hello and welcome to Blur Busters forums!

(BTW, I fixed your YouTube Markdown code into UBB code ([/video] format tags) to make your videos show up as embedded)

Unfortunately, it's normal during "camera spinning" situations where camera orbits an object. This forces rapid panning of background, which amplifies tearing visibility. I have analyzed your video, frame by frame, and tearing is extremely visible at 60Hz during spinning situations. This is actually normal tearing for 60Hz. What is happening is that you're doing a spinning angle in third-person view, and this is well-known to me as a method of amplifying visibility of tearing -- it's the type of motion you are doing.

To reduce visibility of tearing, you'll want to consider:

1. Try getting a higher refresh rate monitor, like one from Official List of Best Gaming Monitors.
The higher the refresh rate, the less visible tearing is because the tearline is only visible for (1/Hz)th of a second. At 240Hz, a tearline is visible for only one-quarter the time period as at 60Hz. At 120Hz, a tearline is visible for only one-half the time period as at 120Hz. The tearing visibility in your video is normal; I've seen it before for ~100-150fps at 60Hz during "camera spinning" situations.

2. Alternatively, try a Low-Lag VSYNC ON trick. It might be low lag enough for you.

3. Alternatively, try 240Hz GSYNC. You get stutterfree, tearingfree, and lag nearly matching VSYNC OFF! (unlike 60Hz GSYNC) Finally low enough for eSports. There's almost no lag difference between GSYNC and VSYNC OFF when the refresh rate is set to 240Hz, observe the 1000fps VSYNC OFF result (in both) compared to frame-capped GSYNC.

Image

(From GSYNC 101: Input Lag Tests of 240Hz which also tested VSYNC OFF input lag too at 60Hz versus 240Hz).

Also, remember that our tests have been showing same framerate at higher Hz has less lag. Which means 100fps@240Hz has less input lag than 100fps@144Hz, so the use of 240Hz has competitive benefits even if you can't do full 240fps.
-- Higher fps at same Hz is lower lag
-- Higher Hz at same fps is lower lag
-- Doing both is best (higher fps and higher Hz) but doing just one or the other still lowers input lag.


Hello
First of all, thanks for replying. I have probably spent more than 100 hours reading posts on reddit and forums trying to find a solution to my problem. On posts about problems similar to mine i sometimes see people trying to give solutions (not that it works), but i also see the "this is just tearing this is why vsync exists" replies. I even read the 20+ page post on Blurbusters about a guy who had the same problem as me https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2843
Honestly i can understand his frustration because ATM i am in the same situation as him. What further confuses me is that there are people that say they never notice screen tearing (with vsync off ofcourse). I don't understand this because the screen tearing and stutter i'm having in the 75-90 FPS range on a 60Hz monitor makes games almost unplayable. The 2 videos that i uploaded are an example of this, i locked the fps to 83 on RTSS and filmed it on slow-mo with my camera.

I know that if you set an fps cap that is the same as your refresh rate you get an almost stationary tear. So i did this for testing purposes and i noticed that the tear appears to be shifting up and down lighting fast.
phpBB [video]
So i thought this might have to do with frametimes and i benched some of em.


60 FPS cap on 60Hz
Image

Adaptive vsync on 60Hz
Image

Adaptive vsync on 75Hz "OC'd"
Image

The pesky 83Fps (capped) (60Hz)
Image

Here are the FRAFS files if you need them

https://mega.nz/#F!a9t3wB4T

It also looks like the tear shifting also happens at 83Fps hence why the tearing looks extra bad

Thanks for all the tips i will be trying the low latency vsync trick now :)
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Sparky » 21 Sep 2017, 02:30

So i did this for testing purposes and i noticed that the tear appears to be shifting up and down lighting fast.
The shifting up and down is caused by small variances in frame render time after the framerate cap.

Anyway, it looks like normal tearing. You can verify that by checking that the tearing shows up on your monitor, but not in screen capture like OBS. Higher framerates mean there are more tears per second, but each tear has a smaller displacement across it. Higher refresh rates mean each tear stays on the monitor for less time.
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Frs4ken » 21 Sep 2017, 02:39

Sparky wrote:
So i did this for testing purposes and i noticed that the tear appears to be shifting up and down lighting fast.
The shifting up and down is caused by small variances in frame render time after the framerate cap.

Anyway, it looks like normal tearing. You can verify that by checking that the tearing shows up on your monitor, but not in screen capture like OBS. Higher framerates mean there are more tears per second, but each tear has a smaller displacement across it. Higher refresh rates mean each tear stays on the monitor for less time.


i see
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Frs4ken » 21 Sep 2017, 22:17

Sparky wrote:
So i did this for testing purposes and i noticed that the tear appears to be shifting up and down lighting fast.
The shifting up and down is caused by small variances in frame render time after the framerate cap.

Anyway, it looks like normal tearing. You can verify that by checking that the tearing shows up on your monitor, but not in screen capture like OBS. Higher framerates mean there are more tears per second, but each tear has a smaller displacement across it. Higher refresh rates mean each tear stays on the monitor for less time.


When recording 60 fps with OBS the tearing doesn't show up but the stutter does. When i play with vsync off it looks like i get stuttering and tearing just like in the ufo demo http://www.testufo.com/#test=stutter&de ... 00&pps=720
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Glide » 22 Sep 2017, 00:13

Frs4ken wrote:What further confuses me is that there are people that say they never notice screen tearing (with vsync off ofcourse). I don't understand this because the screen tearing and stutter i'm having in the 75-90 FPS range on a 60Hz monitor makes games almost unplayable. The 2 videos that i uploaded are an example of this, i locked the fps to 83 on RTSS and filmed it on slow-mo with my camera.

Most people that say this also neglect to mention that they are playing games in borderless windowed mode with V-Sync “disabled” in the game but forced by the desktop compositor.
I noticed a lot of people start complaining about screen tearing with the Windows 10 Creators Update which allows certain whitelisted games to bypass the compositor in borderless mode.

Nothing looks out of the ordinary for a 60Hz display in your videos - though the slow motion doesn’t really help.

The fix for this is to live with V-Sync and try capping it to reduce latency, or to buy a G-Sync/FreeSync display depending on whether you have an NVIDIA or AMD GPU.
Last edited by Glide on 22 Sep 2017, 03:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby RealNC » 22 Sep 2017, 00:50

Glide wrote:Most people that say this also neglect to mention that they are playing games in borderless windowed mode with V-Sync “disabled” in the game but forced by the desktop compositor.
I noticed a lot of people complaining about screen tearing with the Windows 10 Creators Update which allows certain whitelisted games to bypass the compositor in borderless mode.

Yeah, +1 to that. Many people always play borderless, which in Windows 7 and 8 will never tear, regardless of the vsync setting. You get a bit of extra input lag, plus a bit of microstutter, in exchange for never tearing. But when they upgraded to W10 with latest updates, they were in for a surprise.

If you want to get a similar behavior as borderless in W7/W8 or pre-update W10, then you need to play in fullscreen (if possible) and enable Fastsync (nvidia) or Enhanced Sync (AMD). If you have a fast machine, the "low latency vsync" method (linked to by Chief above) will help.

The REAL solution, however, is a gsync (nvidia) or freesync (AMD) monitor. This is the only way to eliminate tearing AND microstutter at the same time without adding input lag.
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Glide » 22 Sep 2017, 03:37

RealNC wrote:If you want to get a similar behavior as borderless in W7/W8 or pre-update W10, then you need to play in fullscreen (if possible) and enable Fastsync (nvidia) or Enhanced Sync (AMD).
You can also open system settings, and in the game section disable "Show Game bar when I play full screen games Microsoft has verified" to disable this globally.
Or bring up the executable's properties and disable "fullscreen optimizations" in compatibility options to disable it per-game.

RealNC wrote:The REAL solution, however, is a gsync (nvidia) or freesync (AMD) monitor. This is the only way to eliminate tearing AND microstutter at the same time without adding input lag.

Yep.
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Re: NO way this is normal screent tearing.

Postby Frs4ken » 22 Sep 2017, 09:18

RealNC wrote:
Glide wrote:Most people that say this also neglect to mention that they are playing games in borderless windowed mode with V-Sync “disabled” in the game but forced by the desktop compositor.
I noticed a lot of people complaining about screen tearing with the Windows 10 Creators Update which allows certain whitelisted games to bypass the compositor in borderless mode.

Yeah, +1 to that. Many people always play borderless, which in Windows 7 and 8 will never tear, regardless of the vsync setting. You get a bit of extra input lag, plus a bit of microstutter, in exchange for never tearing. But when they upgraded to W10 with latest updates, they were in for a surprise.

If you want to get a similar behavior as borderless in W7/W8 or pre-update W10, then you need to play in fullscreen (if possible) and enable Fastsync (nvidia) or Enhanced Sync (AMD). If you have a fast machine, the "low latency vsync" method (linked to by Chief above) will help.

The REAL solution, however, is a gsync (nvidia) or freesync (AMD) monitor. This is the only way to eliminate tearing AND microstutter at the same time without adding input lag.


For me, fast sync has the same effect as windows aero. For example at 63 fps there is this horizontal tear moving vertically every few seconds and when fast sync is turned on / aero the tearing is gone but instead you get a microstutter. This can be recorded on OBS
phpBB [video]
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