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AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 07 Nov 2017, 01:19

Question,

Which browser are you using, Chrome or FireFox?
For FireFox, it needs the 100% trick.

That is way too much work, just 3 (slightly longer exposure) photos per pass is usually sufficient, with exposure set long enough to capture two frameskips.

The preferred way for me to determine frameskip patterns, is the number of solid squares between two frame skips in the same photo. Find your photos with 2 frameskips and see if there is a pattern in the # of squares to no frameskips.

Also, try Horizontal Total 2080 versus 2040 for the same vertical total.
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby HalfwayDead » 07 Nov 2017, 18:17

I'm using Chrome. Closing literally everything and 100% performance CPU. Running the frameskip test in fullscreen mode seems to help a bit I've noticed by now.

I'm already exposing for 0.4s so I don't have much more room but for the photos with 2 frameskips I can definitely check the amount of squares without a skipped frame.

Edit: Oh should I just decrease the back porch of the horizontal to achieve 2040 Total or should I use something else?
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby RealNC » 07 Nov 2017, 19:20

Your Chrome issues might be due to some extension interfering? Try starting Chrome without extensions by starting it with the "--disable-extensions" command-line option. Press Winkey+R and enter:

Code: Select all
"c:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Chrome\Application\chrome.exe" --disable-extensions
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby HalfwayDead » 07 Nov 2017, 20:50

Your Chrome issues might be due to some extension interfering?

Thanks for the suggestion but I had already done that. Fullscreen mode is a lot better though. Sometimes it takes 25-30s to sync but then it almost never gets a stutter afterwards. And it helps with having bigger squares anyway

I've done a lot more tests but I'm close to giving up... I made this spreadsheet. The values inside the tables are the distance between skipped frames. As you can see, there just seems to be a pattern, that makes it seem like it's not even worth to continue the search.

My best "success" so far was when I was going by feeling a couple of days ago. Just spinning the mouse in a circle at 240Hz makes a missing frame pretty obvious so I was able to test pretty quick although it's obviously not very accurate. There I found a range of settings (top right of the spreadsheet) in which, as long as you keep the VT 1159 and HT 2079 the same and the sync width +- a couple lines/pixels, I got no frame skipping and I thought I solved it. I had 8 pictures in a row (0.4s exposure) without a frame skipped but then one came and another one. I wasn't quite sure if it was just a lucky streak but now I've confirmed that with those settings the monitor seems to not skip frames at first. I just took pictures with 0.8s exposure and not a single frame skipped. However after less than 2 minutes there is a frame skip every 84 frames and this stays. This behaviour hasn't happened with any of the settings I tried in the table today. They have been skipping since right after restarting the driver.
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby Notty_PT » 08 Nov 2017, 13:19

This first gen of 240hz screens is simply bad. Not only those monitors are useless for anything that isn´t PC shooters (because input lag at 60hz is too high), overshooting is ridiculous and also frame skipping.

Better wait for the 2nd gen with decent input lag values and better overall performance. The tiny bit added motion clarity or 2ms better input lag at 240hz isn´t worth it.
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 08 Nov 2017, 19:01

Notty_PT wrote:This first gen of 240hz screens is simply bad. Not only those monitors are useless for anything that isn´t PC shooters (because input lag at 60hz is too high)

Personally, I do not feel they're useless, because:

(1) I've never ran my 240 Hz monitor at 60 Hz for any game. Also, 60fps @ 240 Hz piggybacks off the 240 Hz scanout, whether in VSYNC OFF or in G-SYNC mode. So even my 60fps games (at 240Hz GSYNC or 240Hz VSYNC OFF) have much less lag than 60Hz. Even emulators run via the 240Hz fast-scanout of 60Hz (best practice for emulators is to activate VRR to do low-lag emulated "60Hz", instead of switch to 60Hz). The 60Hz mode is not even used for my 60fps stuff.

(2) A lot of 144Hz monitors are really hit-and-miss too. Scanlines-issue, poor colors, panel lottery issues, etc. Even the (easily fixable) frameskipped ViewSonic had much better colors & lack of scanlines-issue than an average 144Hz panel. It's quite a nice TN panel (albiet the XL2540/XL2546 is slightly lower lag). You win some, you lose some.

(3) We test monitors and provide solutions so you can fix the problems. We've provided frameskipping fixes, and I've helped manufacturers fix some firmware flaws by reporting directly to them.

I agree that flaws are annoying and one can choose to avoid purchasing a monitor till the 2nd generation. But if you're shopping for a monitor today and lag is important, there's already really good 240Hz candidates. The best and super-bright (sometimes painfully bright) strobe backlights are found mainly in the 240Hz monitors. The best G-SYNC is also found in the 240Hz monitors. The world's lowest overall lag mechanics (including lag randomization) is also found in the 240Hz monitors. Eeven if minimum lag is same as 144Hz due to first-generation handicap, you have to look at MIN/MAX/AVERAGE too. See this post for more info.

For Min/Max/Average
From tests of Acer XB252Q running CS:GO
At 1000fps@60Hz VSYNC OFF, tests had a spread of 14ms-thru-27ms (a 13ms random-lag spread)
At 1000fps@144Hz VSYNC OFF, tests had a spread of 12ms-thru-18ms (a 6ms random-lag spread)
At 1000fps@240Hz VSYNC OFF, tests had a spread of 12ms-thru-14ms (a 2ms random-lag spread)

Averaged lag from 40 mouse button presses in CS:GO.

True, 1000fps is an extreme case. But, it actually biases to tighter spreads. Lag spreads tends to be bigger with lower frame rates because of bigger rendertime and netcode fluctuations which can amplify the lag-randomization effect.

Not everyone realizes refresh rate granularity injects a lag-randomization factor in real games. Leo Bodnar is SiSoft Sandra of lag tests: A synthetic lag benchmark, albiet useful, still ignores real-world tests. Real lag tests is actual real-game CS:GO lag testing.

more info

--> The freedom of choice to not buy a 240Hz monitor until 2nd generation remains.
--> However, the freedom to buy the fastest eSports monitor today also exists too if you can afford to buy now & buy again later.

We do a public service of helping readers navigate the bleeding edge risks to buy the fastest monitor today that gives the best competitive & eSports scores. And, for desktop use, some the 240Hz TN panels _are_ actually better colors than the cheap 144Hz panels (especially the ones prone to the scanlines-issue). Not everyone of us use CS:GO either. And some of us hate "dim LightBoost" -- some of the 240Hz monitors have much brighter strobe modes (sometimes too bright), at 300cd/m2. Sometimes we don't want to wait for other features. It all depends on what your priorities are, and some 240Hz-monitor attributes already really truly shine well, despite rough edges. Most of the 240Hz now actually has less ghosting than the average 144Hz (with only a few exceptions -- like the early AOCs from last year). We all have the freedom to buy now or wait.
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 08 Nov 2017, 19:43

Also:

Currently, there are no reports of frameskipping on 240Hz G-SYNC monitors. When money is no object, buy 240Hz G-SYNC and pay the "premium" anyway even if you don't use G-SYNC and plan to only use VSYNC OFF.

For example, AOC's 2nd 240Hz monitor (with G-SYNC) is already their 2nd generation and has far less ghosting than AOC's 1st 240Hz monitor (without G-SYNC). NVIDIA seems to do a better job of calibrating overdrive (even for non-G-SYNC mode) to greatly reduce ghosting on 240 Hz monitors.

So for the advice of "I don't use G-SYNC for CS:GO" needs to be kind of interpreted differently:
Buy 240 Hz G-SYNC and just turn off G-SYNC if you don't want it.
The existence of G-SYNC brings a lower-lag better-overdrive VSYNC OFF mode too.

This allows you to enjoy the benefits of lower lag, no need for frameskipping fixes, and overall better quality. G-SYNC premium seems to be really worth it during this 240Hz generation even for non-G-SYNC users.

G-SYNC is great, but all G-SYNC monitors also can be used with VSYNC OFF instead too. If you don't mind paying approx ~$100 more (yes, I know, annoying to some); at least it's bought you better quality up front.
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby HalfwayDead » 08 Nov 2017, 20:48

Chief Blur Buster wrote:If you don't mind paying approx ~$100 more

The G-Sync version with my 27" panel is 260€ more than I paid and even for the 24" monitors the difference here is around 200€. Sadly, most definitely out of my price range.

I don't know much about frame skipping. What are the odds that just my monitor has issues? Should I ask for a replacement or just get my money back while I can?
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 08 Nov 2017, 21:02

HalfwayDead wrote:
Chief Blur Buster wrote:If you don't mind paying approx ~$100 more

The G-Sync version with my 27" panel is 260€ more than I paid and even for the 24" monitors the difference here is around 200€. Sadly, most definitely out of my price range.

I don't know much about frame skipping. What are the odds that just my monitor has issues? Should I ask for a replacement or just get my money back while I can?

We have fixed frameskipping on the other two monitors (AF251FZ, XG2530) so everyone can do a quick tweak. Thanks to our work, we are the world's first website to solve the 240 Hz frameskipping, so nobody else has to suffer!

Except for for the XF270HA.

Fantastic work on the spreadsheet, the pattern of one-in-40 and one-in-80 is similiar to the others.
Pretty strange.

I hate to torture you for more testing, but for the public good:
- Try the best numbers you tried but reduce refresh rate to 230 or 235 or 238 Hz. Does frameskipping disappear? If so, keep raising refresh till it reappears. If frameskipping exists, keep reducing refresh till it disappears.
- Try shifting between vertical front/back porch in Custom Resolution. Swap the two values. Failing that, try increasing the smallesr numbers a little (decreasing biggest if needed)
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Re: AOC AG251FZ 240Hz frameskipping fix

Postby Notty_PT » 09 Nov 2017, 05:48

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
Notty_PT wrote:This first gen of 240hz screens is simply bad. Not only those monitors are useless for anything that isn´t PC shooters (because input lag at 60hz is too high)

Personally, I do not feel they're useless, because:

(1) I've never ran my 240 Hz monitor at 60 Hz for any game. Also, 60fps @ 240 Hz piggybacks off the 240 Hz scanout, whether in VSYNC OFF or in G-SYNC mode. So even my 60fps games (at 240Hz GSYNC or 240Hz VSYNC OFF) have much less lag than 60Hz. Even emulators run via the 240Hz fast-scanout of 60Hz (best practice for emulators is to activate VRR to do low-lag emulated "60Hz", instead of switch to 60Hz). The 60Hz mode is not even used for my 60fps stuff.

(2) A lot of 144Hz monitors are really hit-and-miss too. Scanlines-issue, poor colors, panel lottery issues, etc. Even the (easily fixable) frameskipped ViewSonic had much better colors & lack of scanlines-issue than an average 144Hz panel. It's quite a nice TN panel (albiet the XL2540/XL2546 is slightly lower lag). You win some, you lose some.

(3) We test monitors and provide solutions so you can fix the problems. We've provided frameskipping fixes, and I've helped manufacturers fix some firmware flaws by reporting directly to them.

I agree that flaws are annoying and one can choose to avoid purchasing a monitor till the 2nd generation. But if you're shopping for a monitor today and lag is important, there's already really good 240Hz candidates. The best and super-bright (sometimes painfully bright) strobe backlights are found mainly in the 240Hz monitors. The best G-SYNC is also found in the 240Hz monitors. The world's lowest overall lag mechanics (including lag randomization) is also found in the 240Hz monitors. Eeven if minimum lag is same as 144Hz due to first-generation handicap, you have to look at MIN/MAX/AVERAGE too. See this post for more info.

For Min/Max/Average
From tests of Acer XB252Q running CS:GO
At 1000fps@60Hz VSYNC OFF, tests had a spread of 14ms-thru-27ms (a 13ms random-lag spread)
At 1000fps@144Hz VSYNC OFF, tests had a spread of 12ms-thru-18ms (a 6ms random-lag spread)
At 1000fps@240Hz VSYNC OFF, tests had a spread of 12ms-thru-14ms (a 2ms random-lag spread)

Averaged lag from 40 mouse button presses in CS:GO.

True, 1000fps is an extreme case. But, it actually biases to tighter spreads. Lag spreads tends to be bigger with lower frame rates because of bigger rendertime and netcode fluctuations which can amplify the lag-randomization effect.

Not everyone realizes refresh rate granularity injects a lag-randomization factor in real games. Leo Bodnar is SiSoft Sandra of lag tests: A synthetic lag benchmark, albiet useful, still ignores real-world tests. Real lag tests is actual real-game CS:GO lag testing.

more info

--> The freedom of choice to not buy a 240Hz monitor until 2nd generation remains.
--> However, the freedom to buy the fastest eSports monitor today also exists too if you can afford to buy now & buy again later.

We do a public service of helping readers navigate the bleeding edge risks to buy the fastest monitor today that gives the best competitive & eSports scores. And, for desktop use, some the 240Hz TN panels _are_ actually better colors than the cheap 144Hz panels (especially the ones prone to the scanlines-issue). Not everyone of us use CS:GO either. And some of us hate "dim LightBoost" -- some of the 240Hz monitors have much brighter strobe modes (sometimes too bright), at 300cd/m2. Sometimes we don't want to wait for other features. It all depends on what your priorities are, and some 240Hz-monitor attributes already really truly shine well, despite rough edges. Most of the 240Hz now actually has less ghosting than the average 144Hz (with only a few exceptions -- like the early AOCs from last year). We all have the freedom to buy now or wait.


I understand what you say and no doubts, objectively speaking they are the fastest monitors money can buy. But in my situation, I use to connect a console to the monitor aswell. Those 240hz screens at 60hz HDMI are slow compared to 100€ monitors get my point? If I was to spend 500€ on a monitor, I wanted it to be fast in every situation. Altho it still wins against 144hz on PC gaming, I know it can do better when the 60hz input lag is on par with other models. It will be even faster.
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