Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

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RealNC
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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by RealNC » 07 Jan 2018, 04:34

Many g-sync monitors can do 60Hz and 75Hz single-strobe as well after you tweak the mode timings using CRU. I have an XG2703-GS and it works. However, I don't recommend IPS or VA monitors if you want the best MBR performance. I'd go for a TN g-sync.

Whether disabling MBR at 30FPS is needed or not depends on whether the double image effect is annoying for you or not.
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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by rasmas » 07 Jan 2018, 06:54

RealNC wrote:Many g-sync monitors can do 60Hz and 75Hz single-strobe as well after you tweak the mode timings using CRU. I have an XG2703-GS and it works. However, I don't recommend IPS or VA monitors if you want the best MBR performance. I'd go for a TN g-sync.

Whether disabling MBR at 30FPS is needed or not depends on whether the double image effect is annoying for you or not.
But g-sync monitors with ULMB need really stable framerate (works at "fixed" framerates, if i read it right) and i am a bit concerned about how stable can my games be at my current build (i.e: on some scenes it can go from 100fps to 40).
But anyway i'll remember g-sync + TN monitors are the best.

Can i ask why IPS are not recomended? (i guess it is because of the slower response times but not sure :P ).

About the MBR 30FPS i have played at less with stutters and screen tearing (i have to try on this CRT), but if the MBR makes it flicker a lot i guess i won't be able to stand it, but i can test :P .

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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by RealNC » 07 Jan 2018, 07:08

rasmas wrote:But g-sync monitors with ULMB need really stable framerate (works at "fixed" framerates, if i read it right) and i am a bit concerned about how stable can my games be at my current build (i.e: on some scenes it can go from 100fps to 40).
Not sure what you mean. ULMB is no different than other MBR methods. There's no special framerate requirements for ULMB. Like with any other MBR method, you get the best results if your FPS matches the current refresh rate. So for 60Hz MBR, you need 60FPS to get the best motion quality. For 85Hz you need 85FPS. And so on. This is true for every MBR method. This is also true for CRT monitors.
Can i ask why IPS are not recomended? (i guess it is because of the slower response times but not sure :P ).
Yes. Pixel response is higher, and that means they have more crosstalk compared to TN.
About the MBR 30FPS i have played at less with stutters and screen tearing (i have to try on this CRT), but if the MBR makes it flicker a lot i guess i won't be able to stand it, but i can test :P .
There is no extra flicker. The MBR flickers at 60Hz, regardless of what the framerate is. What you get with 30FPS@60Hz is a double-image effect. The same happens with 30FPS@60Hz on a CRT monitor.
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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by rasmas » 07 Jan 2018, 07:38

RealNC wrote:
rasmas wrote:But g-sync monitors with ULMB need really stable framerate (works at "fixed" framerates, if i read it right) and i am a bit concerned about how stable can my games be at my current build (i.e: on some scenes it can go from 100fps to 40).
Not sure what you mean. ULMB is no different than other MBR methods. There's no special framerate requirements for ULMB. Like with any other MBR method, you get the best results if your FPS matches the current refresh rate. So for 60Hz MBR, you need 60FPS to get the best motion quality. For 85Hz you need 85FPS. And so on. This is true for every MBR method. This is also true for CRT monitors.
I have read a comment that i am not sure if is the one i am going to quote (i think i saw one from chief blur comparing MBR brands and setting UMLB as the best followed by Zowies with your customization tool, but can't find it EDIT: found it) where he says:
"The official ULMB strobe frequencies are 85 100 and 120hz"
viewtopic.php?t=3160#p23923
Do the monitors auto-detect the FPS or do you have to manually set the MBR frequency according to the FPS you get, and preferably capping these FPS to the MBR frequency?
I.e. you get 100fps, you set MBR to 85 and then you limit your game fps to 85.
RealNC wrote:
About the MBR 30FPS i have played at less with stutters and screen tearing (i have to try on this CRT), but if the MBR makes it flicker a lot i guess i won't be able to stand it, but i can test :P .
There is no extra flicker. The MBR flickers at 60Hz, regardless of what the framerate is. What you get with 30FPS@60Hz is a double-image effect. The same happens with 30FPS@60Hz on a CRT monitor.
Pretty sure there is something i am not getting correctly:
There is difference between 30FPS on a 60Hz monitor and 30FPS on a 144Hz monitor? (If you have to manually configure the MBR to match the fps, then i think i understand, if not, i know the problem is on my end but i am a bit confused :P ).

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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by RealNC » 07 Jan 2018, 08:37

You're a bit confused ;-)

When using MBR, you just set your monitor to the desired Hz. Like 1920x1080@100Hz. You then just enable MBR in the monitor's OSD. MBR will then work at the current refresh rate. With ULMB, the option in the OSD is disabled if you don't use 85Hz, 100Hz or 120Hz. But you can apply tweaks using the CRU utility to unlock ULMB also for 60Hz and 75Hz if you want. (This might not work with ALL g-sync monitors though. It works with many, but there's no guarantees that it works with all monitors.)

So when you enable MBR, what happens is just this:

https://www.testufo.com/blackframes#cou ... und=000000

(This is emulated using black frame insertion and it clickers because it's half refresh rate. On a real MBR monitor, you will get full refresh rate.)

Nothing else changes. All your games will work just the same. Just like on a CRT, for best results, you need to enable vsync. But you don't HAVE to use v-sync. It's just that (again, like on a CRT), you get best motion quality if you use vsync.

As for 30FPS on 60Hz vs 144Hz, the same things apply as always: if the FPS doesn't match Hz, you get stutter. If you want to minimize stutter, then you need to use a refresh rate that's an exact multiple of the framerate, and then use 1/2 vsync (30FPS@60Hz), or 1/3 vsync (30FPS@90Hz) or 1/4 vsync (30FPS@120Hz). You do that with nvidia inspector.

However, for 30FPS (or lower than 60FPS) games, it's probably better to use g-sync instead of ULMB. MBR works best at 85Hz and above, due to the flicker.
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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by rasmas » 07 Jan 2018, 10:09

RealNC wrote:You're a bit confused ;-)

When using MBR, you just set your monitor to the desired Hz. Like 1920x1080@100Hz. You then just enable MBR in the monitor's OSD. MBR will then work at the current refresh rate. With ULMB, the option in the OSD is disabled if you don't use 85Hz, 100Hz or 120Hz. But you can apply tweaks using the CRU utility to unlock ULMB also for 60Hz and 75Hz if you want. (This might not work with ALL g-sync monitors though. It works with many, but there's no guarantees that it works with all monitors.)

So when you enable MBR, what happens is just this:

https://www.testufo.com/blackframes#cou ... und=000000

(This is emulated using black frame insertion and it clickers because it's half refresh rate. On a real MBR monitor, you will get full refresh rate.)

Nothing else changes. All your games will work just the same. Just like on a CRT, for best results, you need to enable vsync. But you don't HAVE to use v-sync. It's just that (again, like on a CRT), you get best motion quality if you use vsync.

As for 30FPS on 60Hz vs 144Hz, the same things apply as always: if the FPS doesn't match Hz, you get stutter. If you want to minimize stutter, then you need to use a refresh rate that's an exact multiple of the framerate, and then use 1/2 vsync (30FPS@60Hz), or 1/3 vsync (30FPS@90Hz) or 1/4 vsync (30FPS@120Hz). You do that with nvidia inspector.

However, for 30FPS (or lower than 60FPS) games, it's probably better to use g-sync instead of ULMB. MBR works best at 85Hz and above, due to the flicker.
That was a GREAT explanation, thank you very much!!
Now a lot of things make more sense xD ;) .

I think by now i understand all i need thanks to you, still i will keep looking for info and monitors until i get one, that pretty sure will be the LG first, just to try how i see a "cheap" monitor with MBR (although hope at CES we see new great MBR monitors); and when i do i'll try to post my impressions here (although i can't promise :P ).

Again, thank you very much ;) .

P.S. of course feel free to add anything you think i didn't ask and i may need, i'll always appreciate that too ;) .

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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by rasmas » 25 Jan 2018, 07:31

Hi again,
Not sure if i should create a new thread, so let me know.

I have bought the LG 24MP59G and i'd like to ask you how should i test it.

By now i have tried a game on the MBR and response time on middle and was blurry (i think it was the crosstalk you talked about).

I have tried the photo test (https://www.testufo.com/photo ) with MBR and response time on middle and it was not too sharp. If set Response time to high and looked a bit clearer.

I then tried the https://www.testufo.com/crosstalk with MBR and response time on middle and it shows some clear coloured ghosts. If set Response time to high ghost looked a bit more like a "photo negative" if that helps to explain it.
Without MBR "photo negative" are there on high, not on medium.

Additional notes: i have it on 75hz and HDMI and i have not noticed "pixelated blue and orange colours" reported on some comments i saw somewhere.
I can see the "pixels panel" (forgot how it's called, i mean the "net" cuting the screen on squares-pixels) reported by other users too.


So, what do you think, should i do additional testing? I get that blurry feeling because of the IPS panel or should i adjust something? A TN panel would be better?
(add any answer to any question i have not done but can need ;) ).

Thank you in advance :) .

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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Jan 2018, 11:07

Can you post a photograph of the "pixel panel"? I can identify that from a photo. Maybe it is an artifact of inversion?

To reduce crosstalk, try experimenting with a Large Vertical Total to see if the ghosts fade.

Follow Appendix A of http://www.blurbusters.com/crosstalk

You have to use a lower strobe refresh rate than max Hz. For example, being limited to 75Hz, you may need to use 60Hz strobing. Refreah rate headroom is needed for Large Vertical Totals. If too much of a problem, get a higher Hz monitor. 240Hz monitors tend to do the best 120Hz-mode strobing but many 144Hz monitors do good 120Hz or 100Hz strobing.
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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by rasmas » 25 Jan 2018, 15:18

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Can you post a photograph of the "pixel panel"? I can identify that from a photo. Maybe it is an artifact of inversion?

To reduce crosstalk, try experimenting with a Large Vertical Total to see if the ghosts fade.

Follow Appendix A of http://www.blurbusters.com/crosstalk

You have to use a lower strobe refresh rate than max Hz. For example, being limited to 75Hz, you may need to use 60Hz strobing. Refreah rate headroom is needed for Large Vertical Totals. If too much of a problem, get a higher Hz monitor. 240Hz monitors tend to do the best 120Hz-mode strobing but many 144Hz monitors do good 120Hz or 100Hz strobing.
Here the photos:
https://imgur.com/a/Vk7Lm
I have checked it and seems this only happens on Orange and Blue colours (photos are from my orange desktop xD ). So maybe this is what people reported. Tried at 60Hz and still there (some people reported no pixelation at 60Hz).

I will read the link you posted, but it will take me some time as it is a bit confusing for me with a lot of terms i don't understand xD . But i think LG cannot use these tools to change that Large Vertical Total, you told me.

About "You have to use a lower strobe refresh rate than max Hz", it can't be done on the LG, as the Motion Blur Reduction only works when the monitor is set to 75Hz; tried 60hz and i could not activate the MBR.

Maybe i'll have to look for another monitor.

If you think i can do some (simple) test so you have the info for future reference, let me know but you must explain it to me step by step. But i promise nothing :P .

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Re: Request of advice and info to buy a new monitor.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Jan 2018, 18:04

Large VT is not limited to BenQ/Zowie

The step-by-step is in Appendix A of http://www.blurbusters.com/crosstalk
It's a bit complicated now, I know.

I will try to advocate to manufacturers to create easier methods of creating Large Vertical Totals. Or even graphics vendors. Or a special modified ToastyX whose sole purpose is automatically create compatible Large Vertical Total modes.

Large VT are useful mainly for:
-- Reduce double-images for strobe crosstalk
-- Lower lag VSYNC ON -- "Quick Frame Delivery" (QFD).

QFD is a method of transmitting refresh cycles faster for lower-lag VSYNC ON operation. Basically higher dotclock + padding end of refresh cycle with larger VBI. So the refresh cycle is delivered more quickly to the monitor. HDMI 2.1 uses this officially but most FreeSync-compatible displays successfully support QFD via a Large Vertical Total trick.

We might create a Large VT Utility if nobody else does it (ToastyX etc). Make Large VT much easier for our users by 2018-2019! But for now, Large VT is often complicated.
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