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240hz on 60FPS games

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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 14 Mar 2018, 17:47

I think it's just certain games stuttering more than others. Using VRR (FreeSync or GSYNC) will help to a certain extent.
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby RealNC » 14 Mar 2018, 18:17

This is not a VRR monitor.

I recommend doing the frame skipping test. Frame skipping in 60Hz panels is somewhat more common compared to high refresh ones. Do the test and post the photo you took (with a high exposure time.) We can then tell if that's the issue or not.
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby SAMURAIWARRIOR13 » 17 Mar 2018, 23:10

Shutter speed is set to 1/4 with manual mode, flash off, F3.4 and ISO set to 80. I am using a SX510 HS Camera.
These photos are taken on Chrome where I am not signed in if that makes a difference.

Windows display set to 60hz pics
https://imgur.com/a/iZdlD

Windows display set to 50hz pics
https://imgur.com/a/SoKle
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby RealNC » 17 Mar 2018, 23:17

Looks good to me. No black squares between lit ones.

It's not frame skipping. So the issue is on the other side of the display cable. Do the other tests at testufo stutter at 50Hz? Do all games stutter?
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 18 Mar 2018, 12:48

RealNC wrote:Looks good to me. No black squares between lit ones.

Concur. It's not the monitor's fault in this particular case.
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby lexebidar » 18 Mar 2018, 15:22

I remember when I had ag251fg, there was some tearing when game went above gsync ceiling (with vsync off).
It is surprising because I expected tearing to not be visible at 240hz no matter what framerate because of very fast scanning(without gsync ofcourse).
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby SAMURAIWARRIOR13 » 18 Mar 2018, 16:18

Do the other tests at testufo stutter at 50Hz?

I didn't notice any stuttering on any of the tests on this website.
And I confirmed that there was a visual stutter when I dragged the browser window from my main monitor(which for testing I have set to 50hz) to my laptop monitor which is set to 60hz using this test:
https://www.testufo.com/stutter#demo=sm ... 00&pps=720
As for other games I tested TF2 and didn't notice any stuttering even with 50fps at 60hz.
I am having a bit of trouble trying to get RTSS to work with other games :(
When I get a 144hz monitor I could just set it to 120hz and that shouldn't be a problem playing Factorio.
And if I set my montior to 50hz with Factorio at 50fps there seems to be a lot less stutter compared to 50fps at 60hz
The reason I think Factorio stutters is because its kinda a strange game for one:
The game can't pass 60fps no matter what that just how its made.
2)
The UPS(updates per second) is always at 60 no matter the frame rate.
3)
It using double buffering v-sync if that makes a difference.
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby RealNC » 19 Mar 2018, 01:22

lexebidar wrote:I remember when I had ag251fg, there was some tearing when game went above gsync ceiling (with vsync off).
It is surprising because I expected tearing to not be visible at 240hz no matter what framerate because of very fast scanning(without gsync ofcourse).

240Hz is not even nearly high enough to make tearing invisible. For that, you'd need to go to thousands of Hz and the FPS to match. The faster the animation speed is (pixels per second) the higher the refresh rate and FPS needs to be. I don't know what the exact function of tearing is, but it is a function of vertical resolution, animation speed, frame rate and refresh rate.

Weirdly, the lower the vertical resolution is, the less tearing there is. IIRC, Chief explained it somewhere like this: When an on-screen animation is 1 pixel per second, and you have 720 vertical lines (that would be a 1280x720 monitor, for example), you need 720FPS@720Hz to not have tearing. If you now swap that with a monitor that has 1080 vertical lines (1920x1080), you now need 1080FPS@1080Hz to not have tearing...

And that's only at 1 pixel per second, which is abysmally slow movement to begin with. So as you can imagine, for the pixel movement speeds you get in gaming, you'd need tens of thousands of Hz to not heave tearing. 240Hz is far from that.

Keeping inside VRR range really is important if you don't want to get tearing, even on 240Hz monitors. And besides, even if you had an insanely high refresh rate (something like 100.000Hz and 100.000FPS), the faster the movement speed, the more slanted the image would become. Each pixel line is now its own tear line (which is what makes tearing invisible), so over the whole image, a straight vertical line would look angled. So you can't have your cake and eat it too. Although to be fair, at 100.000Hz you'd use vsync anyway, haha. No need for vsync off at that insane scanout interval.
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 20 Mar 2018, 21:54

lexebidar wrote:I remember when I had ag251fg, there was some tearing when game went above gsync ceiling (with vsync off).
It is surprising because I expected tearing to not be visible at 240hz no matter what framerate because of very fast scanning(without gsync ofcourse).

On my 480 Hz monitor tests, I can still see tearing at 480 Hz.

Tearline offsets are smaller though -- tearline offsets halve & tearline visibility halve -- but they only progressively become fainter and fainter. For many people, tearing falls through the noisefloor of inattentiveness (not paying attention to notice tearlines) but once you're familiar with tearlines, you constantly notice them at almost any unsynchronized frame rate on any refresh rate, given sufficiently fast motion.

A 180-degree flicks in FPS can be 10,000 pixels per second horizontal panning motion (that's only barely more than 2 screen widths per second on a 4K display). So running such a 4K display at a theoretical 1000fps @ theoretical 480Hz, that would mean tearlines with a 10-pixel offsets. (10000pps / 1000fps = 10 pixel offsets at tearlines). If you're paying attention, one can still notice chance tearlines in bright high-contrast vertical edges on such a display.

But yes, generally though, tearlines do get harder to see when either Hz or framerate or both goes up.
-- The higher the Hz, the fainter tearlines becomes (briefer-visible tearlines)
-- The higher the frame rate, the smaller the offsets becomes at tearlines (less kew).

Diminishing points of returns but visibility doesn't suddenly cease. Higher resolutions, brighter displays, sharper displays, clearer-motion displays, do amplify visibility of tearing, however. So as displays get better, they will need ever higher-and-higher refresh rates to fully hide tearing.

But -- theoretically -- who needs VSYNC OFF if one can get only 1ms lag with 1000fps VSYNC ON or VRR? Blurfree, stutterfree, and low lag, without needing VSYNC OFF.
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Re: 240hz on 60FPS games

Postby KKNDT » 12 May 2018, 02:50

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
Generally speaking (BlurBusters definition, at least) -- "absolute lag" = lag from pixel being transmitted out of GPU framebuffer, to the corresponding pixel (at X,Y coordinates) emitting light. CRT has (in practical terms) zero absolute lag since there's no buffer or delay between pixel from GPU framebuffer, and pixel display. A perfectly synchronous cable scanout to display scanout, in a lagless 1:1 mapping. Even though there is zero absolute lag, there's still the mandatory scanout lag (overcome by higher Hz).



I've heard EDP panels can communicate with graphics card directly, even without a scaler. Can this achieve 1:1 scanout mapping like a CRT?
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