Blur Busters Forums

Chief Blur Buster wrote:

Now....6bit+FRC, we're talking. That's big enough of a flicker ratio.

Would 6bit+frc fall under the plasma/dlp range of flicker? Is it greater than incandescent bulb flicker curve?

Would you know if a graphics card enables FRC or temporal dithering where does that fall in the flicker curve?

As a side note if a graphics card enables temporal dithering does it not depend on the display to be capable of FRC? As in if a panel is true 8bit or 10bit can the graphics card still make the panel dither?

6-bit = 2^6 = 2x2x2x2x2x2 = 64 = adjacent shades are 1/64th brightness steps apart
8-bit = 2^8 = 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 256 = adjacent shades are 1/256th brightness steps apart

FRC dithering only uses adjacent colors, so at most, you're getting 1/64th luminance changes (1.5% flicker) or 1/256th luminance changes (0.4% flicker). Incandescent bulbs have a bigger flickerdepth than that due to the AC current, as the filament partially cools off during the zero-voltage crossings on the alternating current.

So generating 10-bit (1024 colors) via 8-bit plus FRC, it's pretty gentle all things considered.

While 6-bit FRC flicker is just about detectable, even flicker from inversion artifacts is even a bigger flickerdepth than that. That said, panels that have 6bit+FRC also often have inversion artifacts. Many people give the wrong wild goose chase thinking (incorrectly) flicker from inversion artifacts is caused from the FRC. Though, there are indeed situations where FRC flicker and inversion artifact flicker can interact with each other if the FRC pattern is poorly chosen. For an example of flicker from inversion artifacts, see http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php

PWM dimming is the thing you need to worry about more, because THAT is a 100% full flicker from total darkness to total brightness (essentially a squarewave flicker) rather than a gentle flicker.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
PWM dimming is the thing you need to worry about more, because THAT is a 100% full flicker from total darkness to total brightness (essentially a squarewave flicker) rather than a gentle flicker.

Makes sense. Does oled tech have flicker since the pixels are able to be turned off or on completely like plasma? I read something about oled TVs aside from the pixel have a refresh cycle flicker at either 60hz or 120hz that is inherent to the tech. I don’t understand it fully though.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:

tomsx wrote:well, thx everyone... ye, I'd rather avoid flickering, even if it's subtle...

anyway, on my way to return it... that IPS glow, seriously... feels like every colour is bright, no matter what setting, lacking some depth... plus 2 dead pixels, cherry on top of the cake :V

Even I, personally, fell it is useless to worry about flicker on 8bit+FRC

Even all incandescent lightbulbs have a bigger flicker curve than 8bit+FRC! People who can't see flicker in incandescent lightbulbs, won't see the flicker in 8bit+FRC. The flicker is coming from something else such as imperfect backlight or from inversion artifact (not FRC).

8bit+FRC is a 0.4% change that occurs so rapidly that it's hidden by the GtG.

It's not the full-on-off flickering of DLP/plasma pixels.

Inversion artifacts are much more noticeable.

Now....6bit+FRC, we're talking. That's big enough of a flicker ratio.

Chief you seem to be one of the few sites that talks enough about dither I was wondering if you could solve some issues. There is a large group of people over on an LED forum I am part of who suffer from issues relating to LED lights and monitors. A good chunk of these guys believe their issue is related to dither not all the other issues that you list on this site as being problematic for people. I was convinced I was suffering from dither until I found this thread on your site.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3624&start=20

This thread changed my life by the way. It really got me thinking of a lot of different things that could be affecting me viewing LED screens. Incredible information. Now I am on your site all the time trying to study and learn everything about screens. There is so much misinformation on the internet and people profiting from people struggling with LED screens by giving them incorrect information like here wear these blue blocking glasses when the persons problem is probably motion blur for example.
So you say IPS is the best if you want to avoid dither if I researched your information correctly. A lot of people believe after a certain version of Windows 10 that dithering became out of control and if they revert back to the old version of Windows 10 it goes away. Is that a thing? Also a lot of these guys are using some of the last model Dell CCFL monitors 2407, 2410. Wouldn't that have more dither then say a new IPS? You would also be inducing flicker from pwm mind you. Is dither considered harsher then flicker or is that just how different people can see things. Windows XP VS 7 Vs 10 is there a difference in dithering between operating systems? Or does the OS mean nothing and it's the graphics card vs type of monitor you choose?

Since I found your site I read that if you can use Plasma or DLP dither can't be your problem. So I bought this monitor LG Ultragear 24GL600F-B. Which I think is 6 bit +FRC but I personally have not had an issue with it. Does CRT have a lot of dithering? To me it just seems like this has been a thing forever how could it be a problem when LED puts out monitors. I'm a really big retro gamer and in this video about rom hacks the guy mentions how early 3D systems like PS1 used dithering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFN972KabBQ I time stamped the video at 5:35 in the comments where he talks about patching out the dithering of certain games and shows the difference. How could we make it out of the 90's with the muddy mess of N64 and PS1 and Sega Saturn and not have any issues? We were playing all those systems on CRT's and the evidence of that PS1 video shows dithering how does it compare to LED dithering?