HiSense ULED XD -- Follow-on to Panasonic 1M:1 IPS LCD

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irix
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Re: HiSense ULED XD -- Follow-on to Panasonic 1M:1 IPS LCD

Post by irix » 19 Mar 2019, 16:06

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Most 60" LED-backlit LCD HDTVs can consume less than 100 watts now.

Replacing a plasma with a LED actually more than pays for the cost of the TV within its lifetime -- in electricity bills -- especially if you live in an expensive-electricity country/state.

Can you qualify this? because the numbers don't work in my head. I'll dump what I'm thinking...


To compare a Plasama to any LCD it would have to be FALD. So to cheat in favor of the LCD lets use a low light count FALD like the Vizio M65... It draws about 77 W idle to 175 W max. (I'm being generous here). But on average it'll be around 150 in most homes.

APpanasonic ZT60 plasma for example would draw about max 300 watts but in reality be closer to 200 for average viewing/calibrated.

You can't pay off a TV in 10 years with a 50-100 watt savings.

Lets say the rate is US 12 cents a kilowatt hour...

Running the ZT60 @ 10 hours a day 365 days a year would cost you about: $87
Running the M65 @ 10 hours a day 365 days a year would cost you about: $65

So a net difference of $22 a year... After 10 years it'll be a $220 difference. Or better said a approx: 25% cost difference. While a good savings it's not going to pay for itself.

Now granted you could put either TV in power saving mode and try and squeeze more (less?) out of it. But in reality very few people will do this. AND I should have used a TV with a lot more zones/led count that comes the closest to matching the plasma performance.

Like say a Samsung Q9FN which can peak at 300 watts but be calibrated closer to 100 to 200 depending on tastes... almost a draw.

I believe to make what you said to be true the LCD TV would need to be around 30-40 watts calibrated. Which I don't see happening anytime soon with FALD; especially with HDR. Now granted can you go find some edge lit LCD that performs like this now? Sure... but it won't match the performance of a Plasma and doesn't make much sense to compare IMO.

irix
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Re: HiSense ULED XD -- Follow-on to Panasonic 1M:1 IPS LCD

Post by irix » 20 Mar 2019, 07:41

On another note; this concept HiSense ULED XD has is awesome. I'm hoping they actually produce the TV and bring it to the US.

I see a lot of folks poking fun a HiSense on AVS because of the low end stuff they sell in the states. But they haven't a clue that what comes to the US is the lowest models; none of the high end models have made it here. Someone on the HiSense marketing team must think they can't compete well with their high end models in the US.

However if this TV is produced for a good price I believe it would be a game changer. The FALD concept works OK, but this takes it a step further and actually simplifies things and fixes some of the FALD flaws.

Hopefully more info comes out on the possibility of it existing... (and then if it will come to the US)

lossofmercy
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Re: HiSense ULED XD -- Follow-on to Panasonic 1M:1 IPS LCD

Post by lossofmercy » 15 May 2019, 16:36

https://www.techradar.com/reviews/hisen ... UcvIFtP7ks
While Hisense doesn't give out direct comparisons to its competitors, we feel ULED offers far deeper blacks and more vivid colors than you would on a standard LED TV. In fact, we would argue that the picture is much closer to an OLED TV than it is an LED TV, but at a far more affordable price.
Is the H8F the first TV with this technology? I haven't been able to get a good answer on this. Very briefly scanning the descriptions, it does sound like the first implementation. But I am not sure.

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Re: HiSense ULED XD -- Follow-on to Panasonic 1M:1 IPS LCD

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 May 2019, 19:14

irix wrote:
Chief Blur Buster wrote:Most 60" LED-backlit LCD HDTVs can consume less than 100 watts now.

Replacing a plasma with a LED actually more than pays for the cost of the TV within its lifetime -- in electricity bills -- especially if you live in an expensive-electricity country/state.
Just saw this.

Now, firstly, re-read. expensive-electricity country. California(USA, 16c), Alaska(USA, 19c), Germany(30c), Ontario(Canada, 18c). You know, those expensive-electricity states/provinces/countries. You know where you have to literally pay 25 cents per kilowatt hour during peak (when all taxes, transmission, etc are included). At peak, mine's about 18 cents, plus all the extra fees which makes it almost a quarter coin per hour consuming a kilowatt. Granted, offpeak is lower.

Now, an older plasma consumes closer to 400 watts from a Kill-a-Watt meter measurements. The Kuro is slightly better than some of the older models mind you, but there were a huge number of very old "average" plasmas (not as good as Kuro) that can easily be beat by an average edgelit LCD with good BFI algorithm.

You do gain some and lose some (brightness metric, contrast ratio metric, contouring artifact metric, temporal resolutiom metric, etc) but on average, there are some cheaper FALD HDTVs that will be more than satisfactory against many non-Kuro plasmas for many average Joe users (i.e. non-videophiles).

Those good cheap Vizio and TCL brand FALD HDTVs can spray FALD goodness to your eyeballs for less than $1000 now with a Kill-a-Watt average measurment less than 100 watt -- more than a ~50% power savings. (As much as 75% power savings for similar plasma brightness). Though not as big zonecount as the expensive videophile TVs.

And the cheap $1000 local dimmed HDTV can have better blacks nowadays than the average cheap plasma that emitted a greyish black too because of faint phosphorglow -- they weren't as good as OLED today in blacks. A 10 year old plasma generally starts having brighter blacks due to wear and tear -- it's an issue that old plasmas sometimes exhibits. And yes, perhaps you're doing a trade-in of the plasma christmas tree noise for the blooming of an only-100-zone or 200-zone FALD and whatnot.

But maybe you're picky about it (like one may be about tearing or stutters or whatnot) but others are not quite as picky and consider it a totally fair trade of artifact-vs-artifact. The point being, buddy.... There are definitely $1000 LCD outperformers of aged version of average plasmas of yesteryear. DEPENDING on what artifact tradeins you want to make. The Kuro was the King, but if you have a lesser plasma mortal that's starting to dim and have more glowy-looking blacks while still pigging out at >300 watt... Then it's probably time to trade in anyway. Even sub-$1000 has FALD options are now available today.

If you're picky about temporals, then you may want to hold out a bit longer -- Kuro did a shockingly good job erasing a lot of plasma motion artifacts. But older cheap plasmas outputted horrendous noise artifacts (contouring, christmas tree dot noise, pixel textures, etc) which sometimes look worse than the bigger but fully noise-free motion blur of a modern 4-5ms VA-panel HDTV.

Now, a frequent TV watcher or streaming binger at 3 hours per day, plus 2 hours per day of unattended "background" activity (e.g. displaying news during morning, fireplace, aquarium, music station, etc) -- At average $0.20 per hour (half at peak, half offpeak, add taxes and transmission fees, to average 20 cents) -- that's well over $350 per year. Now, most don't drive the TV as hard and pictures are not always bright -- so round that down to $200-$250 per year -- $2000-$2500 electricity costs for that TV over the lifetime of 10 years.

So, a "superior-than-cheap+worn-plasma" $1000-$1500 FALD HDTV easily saving over $1000-$1500 in electricity in its lifetime. At least in my country.

Now if you live in Germany or other expensive-electricity country where it's 30 eurocents (~33 cents USD) peak, not yet including taxes/fees/transmission, the savings are much bigger.

Most people keep their televisions -- even flat panels -- for at least 10 years. Even one of my TVs still in the home is pushing that too -- my own 2010-era Sony LED-backlit LCD HDTV still uses only 50-70 watts Kill-a-Watt meter measurement at the power outlet and looks really good-looking; vastly superior colors to a 2019-era 165Hz IPS gaming monitor. The chief problem is its crappy refresh rate (60Hz) and its non-FALDness, but it's perfectly fine for movies (rather than sports where less blur in video matters more, like on a CRT or Kuro). That's a ten year old TV using less than 100 watts, so I bet efficiency has gone up slightly since then, and FALD can be had for sub-100W-average now; many TVs RTINGs measure show average FALD levels at the ballparks of 50 watts for the typical sizes (e.g. 55 inch or so) only briefly peaking at >100W for fully bright scenes, measured using equipment by RTINGs, not manufacturer specs. So, your power drop of a ~400W plasma (~200W average) falls to a ~100W FALD (~50W average), the power savings is more than 50% relative to very old plasmas.

FALD isn't power hungry anymore, that's actual sub-100-watter average Kill-A-Watt meter mesurement readings for quite big sizes, 55 inchers, 65 inchers. Sure, during an ultra bright fully-luminous-white-background scene, measurements may briefly surge to >100W just like an old plasma can surge to >400W, but bright scene-for-bright scene, trade for trade. It's those situations where plasmas are sipping less like 200-wattish, are the same moments the same FALD (at a bigger screen size, with brighter image, to boot!) are sipping 50-to-70-wattish nowadays. Both FALD and non-FALD HDTVs can sometimes fall dramatically all the way down to almost standby-league power when the scene goes completely black (e.g. fade black, screen saver, etc) while a plasma TV has to keep running the screen hot even for a black screen, to be ready to display the next bright refresh cycle.

So you see the math I'm getting at, eh?

Yes, if you have a REALLY good plasma (Kuro!) then your trade-in options are much more limited. Holding out a smidgen longer could be warranted if you've got specific pickiness, and your panel is still in great shape (not wearing dim + not getting glowy blacks).
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Re: HiSense ULED XD -- Follow-on to Panasonic 1M:1 IPS LCD

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 May 2019, 19:46

I just saw the ULED XD again at Nanosys' booth at DisplayWeek 2019 -- see my DisplayWeek 2019 Photo Journal.

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It's still easily one of the best LCDs I've ever seen, colors-wise. The color gamut of quantum dot (combined with OLED contrast ratio) was definitely in the ballpark OLED quality -- 100% DCI P3 and 84% of Rec.2020. You do need to view this panel a bit more head on to keep OLED-quality fidelity; the stacked LCD creates a minor viewing angle issue (that said, not nearly as bad as TN) -- but head on, it certainly was OLED-looking quality.

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It's supposed to be a midrange pricing -- it attempts to beat OLED pricing. Cheaper than a 1000+ zone FALD videophile LCD.

Regarding power consumption, the screen actually felt likewarm to the touch, despite running all day in a convention at maximum brightness -- indicating they have solved the power consumption problem of a dualstack LCD. Quantum dot backlights have incredibly high efficiency.

Also, I couldn't tell but I am told some ULED XDs use zone illumination, so it could turn off parts of its quantum dot backlight to save power for the black parts of the scene. Kinda like a 2nd FALD layer in addition to the per-pixel FALD behaviour of the stacked LCD, where some of the benefit is power consumption reduction (since increasing 100,000:1 to over 1M:1 contrast ratio is extremely subtle to most humans). Perhaps this unit power managed this way.

I'd guesstimate the 65 incher was well south of 150 watt averaged. Certainly much more than 50 watt. My wild guess is a 75-125 watt range average based on my familiarity of "screen heat versus Kill-A-Watt measurements". The dualstack LCD was not even nearly as warm as the coolest-feeling plasmas I've touched. Heat emission from a television (front and rear) is often a useful (even if imperfect) indicator of a panel's approximate power consumption ballpark.

The booth said "coming 2020"

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Re: HiSense ULED XD -- Follow-on to Panasonic 1M:1 IPS LCD

Post by lossofmercy » 06 Oct 2019, 00:17

https://www.cnet.com/news/are-dual-lcds ... -find-out/

Looks like they are trying to get the first 4K dual stack here in 2020. Honestly, I am hoping they could provide a 65" for under 2000 (OLED starts at 2500), but we will see.

@TheChief
How bad is the off-angle viewing? I would want to use this TV in a general living room, not a theater setup. So people milling about, party like setting, bright room. I am hoping that the TV can easily handle a bright room, unlike a Plasma/Oled.

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