Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

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senny22
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Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by senny22 » 16 Sep 2019, 14:18

Would there be a noticable difference between buying a older 240hz panel that measures around 4ms gtg (80%), vs a newer panel with around 2ms gtg (80%). I'm looking at buying a new 240hz monitors but can't figure out if it's worth paying 100euro more for the newer version. I'm absolutely in no hurry to buy as I have a 144hz monitor but if the difference isn't even noticable, then I might get the cheaper one anyways.

MatrixQW
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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by MatrixQW » 19 Sep 2019, 02:01

Maybe not a noticeable difference but there is always a difference, in blur.
If you are in no hurry just wait for the 2ms to get cheaper.

Q83Ia7ta
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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 22 Sep 2019, 12:14

May be you should wait for 240hz IPS models. They gonna arrive in 1-6 months. Looks like they have decent response time and maaaaay be it's better than TN.

senny22
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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by senny22 » 22 Sep 2019, 15:00

Q83Ia7ta wrote:May be you should wait for 240hz IPS models. They gonna arrive in 1-6 months. Looks like they have decent response time and maaaaay be it's better than TN.
Might do that but honestly, If they're not gonna be as fast or faster than the fastest TN panels then I probably won't give them much thought anyways.

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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by RealNC » 24 Sep 2019, 12:18

In theory lower is better. In practice, you need to see it in action. I have a 4ms IPS that blows away my 1ms TN in motion quality. I never trusted numbers on a sheet of paper.
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senny22
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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by senny22 » 24 Sep 2019, 18:44

RealNC wrote:In theory lower is better. In practice, you need to see it in action. I have a 4ms IPS that blows away my 1ms TN in motion quality. I never trusted numbers on a sheet of paper.
What about reviews from sites like Rtings? Can those measurements be trusted to show real-life performance?

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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by MatrixQW » 27 Sep 2019, 03:08

I was expecting Chief or someone to answer.
I don't know if Rtings can be trusted but seems at least more reliable.
Each manufacturer uses their own scale of grays, there is no standard. And on top of that they give you the lowest value achieved, not the average.
And when comparing monitors we should look at CtC, not GtG.

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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by RealNC » 27 Sep 2019, 07:51

senny22 wrote:
RealNC wrote:In theory lower is better. In practice, you need to see it in action. I have a 4ms IPS that blows away my 1ms TN in motion quality. I never trusted numbers on a sheet of paper.
What about reviews from sites like Rtings? Can those measurements be trusted to show real-life performance?
If they review motion quality using pursuit photography, yes. If they just test pixel response times, then I'd say no.
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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Sep 2019, 11:49

1ms GtG and 3ms GtG is very noticeable to my human eyes at 240 Hz.

3ms GtG is 75% of a 240Hz refresh cycle, and actually starts "smearing" them like a 12ms 60 Hz LCD. This is part of why 144Hz-vs-165Hz didn't have much of a difference IPS monitors too. It's also why the new 300 Hz 3ms LCDs will be somewhat bottlenecked by GtG. We really need to see consistent 0.5ms GtG for good quality 480 Hz.

At 960 pixels seconds (See Why Does TestUFO Use 960 Pixels Per Second?), 1ms roughly translates to 1 pixel of ghosting. 3ms vs 1ms will show as roughly a 66% smeartrail-length increase at the same motionspeeds. At 3000 pixels/second, 3ms translates to 9 pixels.

That ghosting and smearing you see, it's the GtG limitation....and it's milliseconds made human visible here. #MillisecondsMatter topic here.

2ms vs 4ms is mostly unimportant at 60 Hz (~12% vs ~24% of a refresh cycle) but 2ms vs 4ms is a giant Grand Canyon for full frame rate material at 240 Hz (~50% vs ~100% of a refresh cycle)

2ms / (1/60sec) ~= 0.12 of a refresh cycle
4ms / (1/60sec) ~= 0.24 of a refresh cycle
2ms / (1/240sec) ~= 0.48 of a refresh cycle
4ms / (1/240sec) ~= 0.96 of a refresh cycle

GtG(10%->90%) starts bottlenecking motion clarity human-noticeably at roughly 25% of a refresh cycle, and starts majorly bottlenecking motion clarity at >50% of a refresh cycle. This is why Blur Busters is a huge advocate of sub-millisecond GtG response for the Refresh Rate Race; sub-milliseconds STILL produces human visible artifacts when Hz is in the stratosphere.

However, "is it important" depends on you. Are you picky about tearing? Are you picky about motion blur? Are you picky about stutters? Are you picky about ghosting artifacts? If blur/ghosts are bothersome, and you loved your upgrade from 60Hz->144Hz TN with shocking clarity, then YES: 2ms vs 4ms is a noticeable difference when those milliseconds are most of a refresh cycle.
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Re: Difference Between 2ms (80%) and 4ms (80%) GtG?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Sep 2019, 12:13

RealNC wrote:
senny22 wrote:
RealNC wrote:In theory lower is better. In practice, you need to see it in action. I have a 4ms IPS that blows away my 1ms TN in motion quality. I never trusted numbers on a sheet of paper.
What about reviews from sites like Rtings? Can those measurements be trusted to show real-life performance?
If they review motion quality using pursuit photography, yes. If they just test pixel response times, then I'd say no.
This is very true, see Pixel Response FAQ. You could choose the fastest GtG of the Grid.

Now, first, most manufacturer GtG is VESA standard from 10% to 90% point:

Image

For an 8-bit panel, there are (65536 - 256) different pixel transition combinations, all of completely different speeds. You can shortcut this and simply use a 5x5 measurement grid or 9x9 measurment grid

Image

And then you 3D graph it, like some websites do (TFT Central, etc)

Image

A manufacturer could cherrypick the fastest one, or an average, or VESA standard colors. Beyond a certain point, the human eye cannot see the GtG (e.g. 99% -> 99.9%). And measuring equipment has noise margins, so often a standard of 10%->90% is measured, rather than GtG up to 10%, and the GtG after 90%. However, parts of the GtG can still be human visible before 10% and above 90% -- the cutoff points are arbitrary, however, they can still contribute to things like ghosting.

GtG is a complex topic... Read Pixel Response FAQ.
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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