Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

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CheekiWeeb
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Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by CheekiWeeb » 05 Apr 2020, 00:19

Hello I am in need of advice on which monitors would be better for me to get. The purpose of this monitor is for competitive FPS games (R6, Valorant, etc) along with a mixture of FPS battle royales (COD:Warzone, APEX). I have a LG 1440p nano-IPS as a content monitor for single player games and movies. Currently, I blind bought the benq zowie xl2746s and it feels great. However, I do feel that the 27 inches is a tad bit too big for my current preference of 1080p for FPS games and I am planning on returning it. The next two best 24.5 inch monitors I have narrowed down based on reviews and features from multiple sources including posts here are the Benq Zowie xl2546 and the Aorus KD25F. I know the xl2546s is rumored based of a listing on AMD's freesync website but with no confirmations from benq zowie themselves. I am assuming that COVID-19 is going to be delaying the panel even more and so I am deciding to grab one of the former monitors I listed instead.

On the XL2546 vs the XL2746S the main features that I can see which stand out as an upgrade aside from monitor size is 0.5ms vs 1ms GTG and dyac+ and vs dyac.

Question 1: How much of a perceivable difference would this 0.5ms vs 1ms GTG be between the XL2546 and XL2746S? I am assuming it is mostly negligible?

I took a look at the factory menu of the XL2746S and the panel type was BMS Q270HTN00.A000. Looking around I know that the panel type for the XL2546 BMS Q250HTN00.A000.

Question 2: Is the XL2746S just a blown up version of the old XL2546 panel with just a slightly better 0.5 vs 1ms GTG time and that dyac vs dyac+ is just a advertisement thing with not much of a big improvement gain? There aren't many reviews out and people don't seem to go into the details of the panel.

The XL2546 like the XL2746S right now I own does not dim when the strobing of dyac is enabled. However, the xl2546 is an older TN panel vs the KD25F which runs the latest AUO TN panel so better response times. The KD25F's aim stabilizer strobe dims the panel. I heard that this was a major deal breaker for some.

Question 3: Is the KD25F's strobe dimming that bad? The KD25F is 400 nits vs the both the XL2546 and XL2746S 350 nits brightness. How far down does the KD25F's strobe technology dim the panel? Can I simulate the brightness scenario with my current benq to see how bad the KD25F's dimming is?

So I am in a dilemma between the two monitors as hearing them having strengths in different areas. The XL2546 with dyac strobe that doesn't dim but having an old TN panel. The KD25F being more responsive with latest gen AUO TN panel with aim stabilizer strobe that dims. The XL2546 being used more on the esports competitive scene than the KD25F which is barely on radar. Aside the questions I had I was hoping I could get some advice to steer towards either monitor. Thanks again and sorry for such a long post!

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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 05 Apr 2020, 02:42

Firstly, getting the DyAc models over the non-DyAc models will be the biggest difference. The DyAc verisons have brighter strobing (voltage-boosted strobing), so that's worth the cost premium if you like motion blur reduction modes.
CheekiWeeb wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 00:19
Question 1: How much of a perceivable difference would this 0.5ms vs 1ms GTG be between the XL2546 and XL2746S? I am assuming it is mostly negligible?
See:
GtG Versus MPRT: Frequently Asked Questions about Pixel Response

Head-to-head was done and the difference was noticeable if you hate 240Hz ghosting / 240Hz strobe crosstalk.

While 1ms didn't matter during 60Hz (1/16th of a refresh cycle), 1ms is a much bigger percentage of a 240Hz refresh cycle (1/4th of a refresh cycle). Thanks to the Vicious Cycle Effect (section in the 1000Hz Journey article), higher resolutions and higher refresh rates, amplify GtG limitations.

However, even at these scales, most people don't care or mind 0.5ms vs 1.0ms GtG. However, if you are picky, there are people here that thinks the motion quality improvements of 0.5ms GtG is worthwhile.

Also, the 0.5ms benchmark is mainly at the maximum overdrive setting. What this means is that an un-overdriven panel (that does 0.5ms GtG) may actually have much faster non-overdriven GtG than a panel with 1.0ms GtG.
For example,
-- Panel X might have 0.5ms with maximum overdrive but 2.5ms with less strong overdrive.
-- Panel Y might have 1.0ms with maximum overdrive but 4ms with less strong overdrive.
So with less strong overdrive needed, the differences can actually become somewhat more noticeable, with less ghosting/corona effects as seen at LCD Motion Artifacts 101.

Also, a single GtG number doesn't reveal that there are over 65,000 different GtG numbers for a single 8-bit panel! This is because GtG varies depending on original color and new color. (When a pixel changes color) For example a gray pixel turning black may be slower than a gray pixel turning white. And that dark gray going medium gray might be slower -- than a pixel turning medium gray to light gray.

So, the GtG numbers you see, is merely simply an average GtG. So the 0.5ms vs 1.0ms difference, often, is lurking a bigger upgrade than expected, especially in refresh rate stratospheres. On some older 1ms panels, some specific GtG colors are actually 10 milliseconds (when not using aggressive overdrive).

This is certainly one of those "Blur Busters Milliseconds Matters" topics the sub-millisecond surprises (and becomes human visible). Even 0.25ms GtG versus 0.5ms GtG will still be human visible if/when the refresh rate continues (e.g. 4K 480Hz big screens of the year 2030, for example).

0.5ms GtG means 1 pixel of extra ghosting per 2000 pixels/second. But if you turn down overdrive and the slowest ghosty color GtG becomes 5ms (but still better than 10ms), that's 10 pixels of extra ghosting per 2000 pixels/second (versus a 1ms panel that has a 10ms slow-GtG color!).

But is it worth it? It depends on your eyes. Not everyone is sensitive to tearing. Not everyone is sensitive to stutters. Not everyone is sensitive to lag. It might not matter to you (pleasantly surprised no matter what you get), but it might mean a lot (crushing dissapointing monitor return), or anywhere in between.

-- Do you have 144Hz or 240Hz experience?
-- Are you picky about lag?
-- Are you picky about stutter?
-- Are you picky about tearing?
-- Do you use VSYNC OFF or VSYNC ON or G-SYNC / FreeSync?
-- Are you able to clearly tell TN is superior to IPS/VA panels in motion handling, or do those panels look the same to you in motion blur/ghosting/coronas?
-- Have you been frustrated by ghosting artifacts or corona artifacts?

Answers to the above questions will help me predict whether or not you will be picky about 0.5ms-rated panels versus 1.0ms-rated panels. And to understand how these numbers are measured, see the GtG-vs-MPRT FAQ.
CheekiWeeb wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 00:19
Question 2: Is the XL2746S just a blown up version of the old XL2546 panel with just a slightly better 0.5 vs 1ms GTG time and that dyac vs dyac+ is just a advertisement thing with not much of a big improvement gain? There aren't many reviews out and people don't seem to go into the details of the panel.
Not enough people have tested XL2546 versus XL2746S to tell you. That said, 0.5ms GtG versus 1.0ms is actually something that matters (see above).

The XL2546 like the XL2746S right now I own does not dim when the strobing of dyac is enabled. However, the xl2546 is an older TN panel vs the KD25F which runs the latest AUO TN panel so better response times. The KD25F's aim stabilizer strobe dims the panel. I heard that this was a major deal breaker for some.
CheekiWeeb wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 00:19
Question 3: Is the KD25F's strobe dimming that bad? The KD25F is 400 nits vs the both the XL2546 and XL2746S 350 nits brightness. How far down does the KD25F's strobe technology dim the panel? Can I simulate the brightness scenario with my current benq to see how bad the KD25F's dimming is?
KD25F Aim Stabilizer is dimmer than the DyAc technologies, yes. The BenQ DyAc are among the few strobe technologies (voltage-boosted strobe backlights) that does not dim very significantly.

Meanwhile -- I would very much like to test a XL2746S (I would very much love BenQ to participate in the Blur Busters Approved program later on when COVID-19 settles down).
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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alexander1986
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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by alexander1986 » 05 Apr 2020, 05:46

CheekiWeeb wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 00:19
...
hello, it would be VERY interesting if you could show some photos/videos of the blurbusters ufo test at testufo.com, and how it looks / feels in games with DyAc+ on the 2746S as I have been really wanting to get this monitor, I have looked everywhere and cant seem to find a proper review of this monitor and panel, so would be really appreciated ! and even if that is not possible if you could perhaps try to explain in text at least your opinions and experiences on this stuff :mrgreen:

for example this test : https://www.testufo.com/ghosting

or this : https://www.testufo.com/photo#photo=ali ... 0&height=0

and also maybe some personal opinion and mini-review? like for example, do you see much crosstalk or artifacts with DyAc+ enabled on these tests at 240 hz / 240 fps ? even if you can show photos and/or a video it would be really cool to hear your opinions on strobe crosstalk / strobe quality / monitor blur and overdrive implementation in general,

and lastly it would be really cool to hear if it is possible on this monitor to use the blur busters "182 hz large VT trick" to strobe this monitor at 182 hz with improved crosstalk (and also to run games at 182 hz / 182 fps which is easier to maintain than 240fps in modern games) seen here:

Image


( pic taken from blurbusters guide here: https://blurbusters.com/faq/advanced-st ... stalk-faq/ )

PS do you find the physical pixels very obvious or visible at normal viewing distance on this monitor since its 27" 1080p rather than 25" 1080p ?

as far as freesync on xl2546 from everything I have been able to research, the 2546 does not support freesync even with DyAc turned off (2540 does however but has no DyAc and instead has blur reduction hidden in service menu) that is a reason I have been waiting to instead get the updated 2546S, that is not yet announced though and am not sure it will be released ...

thanks anyway and cheers!

CheekiWeeb
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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by CheekiWeeb » 05 Apr 2020, 22:43

First off I'd like to thank you for your detailed response chief. I am learning a lot after reading your posts.
I will try to answer the questions you mentioned with as much useful info from my experiences as possible.

-- Do you have 144Hz or 240Hz experience?
I have used 60hz 100hz 120hz (with strobing, advertised as 240hz) 144hz and 240hz monitors. Right now I have the 144hz 1440p LG 27GL850-B nano IPS as my content monitor and the XL2746S as my main FPS until I go for either the XL2546 or KD25F. For 240hz in the past I formerly owned a 24 inch Acer Predator XB252Q and it was my main competitive fps monitor for years. I sold it earlier this year to a friend.
-- Are you picky about lag?
For lag, if I think to what you are referring to I have not really felt any on the Acer Predator XB252Q. The monitor just felt really good for me.
-- Are you picky about stutter?
Stuttering if I think what you are asking for only happens to me in games like Escape from Tarkov where frames are very wild and changes rapidly from super high to low. In most games where frames stay constant I do not feel any stuttering.
-- Are you picky about tearing?
I noticed tearing in the monitors I owned was the x34 ultrawide 3440x1440 when I couldn't reach the cap refresh of 100hz. G-Sync solved most of the tearing for me and made games feel more smooth even though I was running low frames. The immersion of ultrawide made me forget the low framerates. (this was mostly single player and casual games) There were times where I felt the Acer Predator XB252Q had some tearing were during quick movements such as in R6 when leaning quickly and moving at the same time.
-- Do you use VSYNC OFF or VSYNC ON or G-SYNC / FreeSync?
I never use VSYNC ever. G-SYNC I only really used when I had my predator x34 ultrawide where it was hard to reach my monitor's refresh of 100hz. When I had my Acer Predator XB252Q I would keep G-SYNC always off.
-- Are you able to clearly tell TN is superior to IPS/VA panels in motion handling, or do those panels look the same to you in motion blur/ghosting/coronas?
From my experiences with the 240hz and my other monitors I felt the Acer Predator XB252Q (a TN panel) had made me feel the most comfortable with my FPS plays. The XL2746S is good currently, but the monitor size made me feel uncomfortable in FPS fights. I own a LG 27GL850-B 144hz IPS 1440p which has a very decent response times comparative to some TNs. I was able to play competitively in FPS games with it but it not feel as responsive as a 240hz. I was able to play competitively but I felt that I was more consistent with the 240hz Acer Predator XB252Q. Maybe the effect was more so that the 1440p monitor didn't allow me to output as many frames so I didn't feel it was as smooth as the Acer Predator XB252Q at 1080p? The only type of artifacting I can see is when I had the OD for the Acer Predator XB252Q at the highest causing overshoots which leaves streaking trails.
-- Have you been frustrated by ghosting artifacts or corona artifacts?
Ghosting and coronas was never really a concern I ever had in mind when I was using my Acer Predator XB252Q. I tried the ULMB mode on it and it felt like the monitor became too dim and capped my refresh at 144hz. I ended up using the full 240hz the all the time. Dyac strobe was the first ever strobing experience I had with 240hz via the XL2746S. From my experience in games such as Apex Legends I can spot differences. Specifically, I remember seeing damage tick markers being more clear with dyac on as I was moving my character and shooting targets.

From what I understand, GTG reported by manufacturers are usually the best case scenarios they get achieve with OD cranked to highest which causes massive errors with overshooting. Average GTG is something that should be looked for instead which is usually much slower than the reported number by manufacturers. The XL540 is said to be almost the same as the XL2546 but without dyac. It seems that the older panel then is around 3.3 ms average GTG (according to rtings.com). Newer TNs panel of the KD25F and XF252Q (which I started looking into as well) at 3.11 ms and 2.6 ms average GTG respectively (hardware unboxed and tftreviews respectively).

My end goal for the monitor then is to get the most competitive FPS monitor based on the advantages each one has. Reducing motion blur is definitely part of what I feel makes a monitor more competitive. So again the XL2546, KD25F, and XF252Q come to mind as my choices. In theory the KD25F and XF252Q should be superior because of its newer panel's response time along with strobing. The big caveat is that they both dim the brightness which makes it unusable and dealbreaker to some like you mentioned.

Therefore I think my biggest question is whether the lower GTG times on the newer TN panels (KD25F/XF252Q) will be noticeable for me versus the older generation TN panel on the XL2546?
Last edited by CheekiWeeb on 07 Apr 2020, 00:25, edited 1 time in total.

CheekiWeeb
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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by CheekiWeeb » 05 Apr 2020, 22:46

Ok, so I used my note 8 with super slow mo to record the UFO tests and took the videos into an editor and cropped them so both can be on screen at the same time. I am still new to motion blur testing so I didn't do the pursuit camera test just a static shot. All settings were the same (sharpness to 10, black eq, vibrances, contrast, etc) on profiles to keep consistency except for the dyac settings between the clips. It was hard to jerry rig a setup for my phone to record video game footage so I have not done that yet. As for the VT trick I will give it a test later to see how that feels.

Dyac+ is set to off on the left and Dyac+ is set to on (premium setting) on the right side of the videos.
https://streamable.com/1oi9qd
https://streamable.com/5gz2n0

However, I can give you a recall on what happened as I used the monitor in various FPS games I tried them on. I have so far only set AMA on the BENQ to high and have not yet tried premium. Apex was my first test game as I hopped into the shooting range to test the effects of dyac+ on and off on clarity as many guns have big muzzle flashes or effects. The first thing I noticed when turning on dyac+ was that tick damage markers of the targets seemed clear whenever they would pop up compared to that when dyac+ is off along with my crosshairs being just slightly more clear while moving. I tried shaking my character's view left and right really quick whilst looking and concentrating a target while moving. With dyac+ on the character seems a little sharper and in return more trackable then with dyac+ off. I have been playing alot of COD: Warzone lately and in that I felt that my quick movements (flicks) would have a sort of sharp clarity effect with dyac+ on. This is not bad at all and I things feel clear and is easily trackable as the same feeling that I had when the tick markers popped up in Apex. In escape from tarkov, the effect of dyac+ was not so much noticeable as the game is wild with its framerates. The game barely reaches 120-144 frames so 240 is out of the question on big maps. In the small map of factory where it focuses on CQC I noticed the same sharpness effect/clarity in quick jerky movements while shooting my gun as my frames on that small map usually were the highest. I will be testing stuff like CS:GO later in preparation for Valorant.

So going into buying the monitor blind one of my major concerns was the 1080p over a 27 inch. My first impressions were "this isn't that bad" when it came to most things and this is coming from a person who has used a 1440p monitor for months. I will say though that white text in game backgrounds did seem fuzzy in games I tried such as DOOM. The XL2746S has a sharpen setting which I bumped up to 10/10 which solved most of the fuzzyness in images which I keep on at all times now. However, I had to move the monitor back more than what I usually would with 25 incher as its not because of seeing pixels but my ability to be agile in FPS games would be hindered. The closest analogy I can give is when you play FPS games its like you are "piloting". I felt more agile and comfortable in fights when I used my older 24.5 inch 240hz. The current Benq XL2746S felt like piloting a bigger mech and therefore I felt like I could not be as agile in fast paced shooter games as I did on my 24.5 incher. Again, thats just my opinion and im pretty sure there are many people who can adapt to it better. As for me, I am thinking of going to get a 24.5 incher (xl2546 or kd25f) and returning this monitor based on the size not because it performs bad ( also no on the ppi but the feel of the monitor for the games I play ). I would say if you can try the monitor yourself first and see if its comfortable.

I have not really used much freesnyc myself recently as most of my FPS games can push frames near the refresh and I do not have problems with tearing. I used to use g-sync or freesync on my older ultrawides as it was harder to push the frames for those monitors.

I would have just bought the XL2546S and called it a day but with the no announcements in sight and COVID-19 I don't think we are going to see if for awhile. If you have any more questions I would be glad to answer them and help you out as much as I can.

alexander1986
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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by alexander1986 » 06 Apr 2020, 11:46

CheekiWeeb wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 22:46
...

@CheekiWeeb: Thanks a LOT for the detailed response and videos, it was perhaps not the highest quality or resolution videos (at least on my end when viewing the videos at streamable, seems there is no quality setting so I guess thats how it is recorded, or perhaps its compressed on streamable a lot, IDK) but it still honestly looked better than what I was expecting at 240 hz strobed, perhaps you could also take a couple of normal static photos also instead of videos, at as high quality/res as you have access to, at some different dyac/ama settings if and when you have the time and energy for it, I am sure a few people other than me would be interested in seeing that, but anyway i'm very grateful just for the videos even !


also, those tests are made to amplify crosstalk artifacts and in-game its usually a lot less noticeable anyway, as far as I understand and from comparing on my own ancient asus vg248qe monitor, there is zero crosstalk in the center when I use strobing and some faint crosstalk on the top, and pretty heavy crosstalk on the bottom, but in-game, its invisible everywhere or unnoticeable at least for me everywhere on the panel.

I think I will be getting the xl2746S to be honest, and if 2546S ever comes out perhaps sell the 2746S and get the 2546S instead at that point, something else I could ask perhaps is, whats your opinion on AMA high vs premium and DyAc+ high vs premium , do you feel premium/premium is the best combo? sharper than high/high or high/premium and so on?

in general, you dont notice any disturbing amount of coronas and overdrive/overshoot artifacts and so on in-game at any level of these settings? or is it like, noticeably better at a specific setting ?


the large VT trick would be very nice to know if that works also and if there is any big improvement in your opinion in the testufo tests (and in-game) because keeping 182 fps steady in newer games is not that out of reach as 240 is in some cases (like Fortnite which I play a lot, I can keep 180 fps in many "heavy scenes" where there is a huge amount of players and builds in a small endgame circle but 240 fps is impossible in those cases, and so on)

again, thanks a lot for the feedback either way man ! much appreciated : )

CheekiWeeb
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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by CheekiWeeb » 07 Apr 2020, 01:45

@alexander1986
Yeah, I think it got really compressed via the editor because the video files directly from the phone were big.
I tried my best to replicate the pursuit camera tests but I'm fairly new to this so I do apologize if its blurry. (only could attach 3 files)

DYAC+ OFF AMA PREMIUM
2  dyac off ama prem.jpg
2 dyac off ama prem.jpg (269.3 KiB) Viewed 1370 times
DYAC+ PREMIUM AMA HIGH
3 dyac premium ama high.jpg
3 dyac premium ama high.jpg (353.48 KiB) Viewed 1370 times
DYAC+ PREMIUM AMA PREMIUM
4 dyac premium ama premium.jpg
4 dyac premium ama premium.jpg (334.34 KiB) Viewed 1370 times
I recently just tried dyac+ premium along with ama premium and it felt good. I felt it was a little sharper and more responsive but very slightly. (I don't know if its placebo) I feel after playing a game for awhile things seem to flow naturally and you tend to focus less on the minute details of say overshooting or artifacts if there was any. Maybe I just don't know what I was looking for but things felt natural for me and I had no problems.

alexander1986
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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by alexander1986 » 07 Apr 2020, 09:34

CheekiWeeb wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 01:45
@alexander1986
Yeah, I think it got really compressed via the editor because the video files directly from the phone were big.
I tried my best to replicate the pursuit camera tests but I'm fairly new to this so I do apologize if its blurry. (only could attach 3 files)

DYAC+ OFF AMA PREMIUM
2 dyac off ama prem.jpg
DYAC+ PREMIUM AMA HIGH
3 dyac premium ama high.jpg
DYAC+ PREMIUM AMA PREMIUM
4 dyac premium ama premium.jpg

I recently just tried dyac+ premium along with ama premium and it felt good. I felt it was a little sharper and more responsive but very slightly. (I don't know if its placebo) I feel after playing a game for awhile things seem to flow naturally and you tend to focus less on the minute details of say overshooting or artifacts if there was any. Maybe I just don't know what I was looking for but things felt natural for me and I had no problems.

thanks man for the pics ! : )

damn, that really looks good to me to be honest, i'm impressed by Benqs crosstalk calibration and overdrive implementation here!, I would say that at 240 hz that is the best result i've seen to date most likely, I also saw and read on this forum some examples of users minimizing overdrive and artifacts even further on high-hz strobing by adjusting colors and contrast on the monitor OSD settings,

for example this link could be interesting if you ever decide do tweak it further:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5191

( user calibrating his xl2546 to minimize crosstalk )

he ended up with the following settings:
TaDaa wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 11:51


Color Temperature - RGB - 43/43/45
Color Vibrancy - 11
Strobe Intensity - 4
Strobe Area - 14
Sharpness - 1
Black Equalizer - 2
Gamma - 4
Brightness - 90
Contrast - 100
AMA - premium
DyAc - premium

I saved the link to to this post and his settings to try them out or try similar tweaks on my own monitor once I buy it in the near future, anyway thought you might be interested in that some day, reducing contrast also historically has helped with overdrive artifacts, even if it seems that user did have it at max instead and changed other settings, lowering it on my vg248qe does make a pretty substantial difference to me at least,

the resolution of his pics is not the highest but from the pic in the link it still looks pretty good IMO, but probably too low-res or too much compression to really tell, your pics are a great example though !

I feel with the newer and faster panel on your 2746S vs the 2546 you could probably achieve a even better result, and DyAc+ on your monitor vs the normal DyAc is probably also further improved !

thanks a lot for the pics and videos again anyway man, enjoy the monitor and if and when you have the time the final thing that would be cool to know, would be if the 182 hz large VT trick works good on this monitor or at all even with those values linked earlier, as that is what I was going for once I get the 2746S or 2546S down the road,

let us know if you discover something you feel worthwhile to update the thread with like these color/OSD tweaks or anything else you want to share with us :mrgreen: cheers!

Dirty Scrubz
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Re: Benq Zowie XL2546 vs Aorus KD25F Advice Needed

Post by Dirty Scrubz » 22 Apr 2020, 08:41

Im curious about the 182 hz trick as well.

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