05/22/2020 UPDATE. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

[axaro1]

First off, that human benchmark was at 60HZ. I only added it to show that, yes even with such an inaccurate benchmark, 60HZ input lag isn't up for discussion.

But nor is input lag at 240HZ, you talk about logic and thought process but I am giving you EVIDENCE.

As much as I trust RTINGS and especially Aperture Grille, they simply haven't done the amount of testing that RLCScontender has when it comes to these Fast IPS monitors. He has literally tested all of them. Whereas RTINGS are following up with whichever monitor gets the most votes.

I implore a5hun to do a review of the Acer XB253Q GX and the ASUS VG259QM (because it's better than the VG279QM). Plus they both use the same panel. But until then, I am 100% satisfied with the results of a man with an engineering background WITH the tools to do these tests ACCURATELY.

I love how you skimmed through the main input lag chart @240HZ which was done with an oscilloscope! And you do what? Jump on the fact that I added data from a Human Benchmark done @60HZ. Lol, your ignorance really baffles the mind.

IF you don't want to believe the input lag chart @240HZ, then I honestly don't care anymore. You are just ignorant of the facts that I put up. And instead, you want to discuss the inferior data group which I brought up just to prove my point further.

Hello? Let's talk about the Input Lag Chart @240HZ. Do you have anything to say about that?

Imagine unironically believing that a team of professional testers who reviewed 110 monitors in the past years have no idea of how to properly test for input lag

IIRC RLCScontender previously said something about ELMB-Sync having 7-11ms of input lag so I guess RTings got the entire review wrong, I may as well write an email to tell them to stop testing with their shitty equipment and their incompetent staff.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Imagine unironically believing that a team of professional testers who reviewed 110 monitors in the past years have no idea of how to properly test for input lag

IIRC RLCScontender previously said something about ELMB-Sync having 7-11ms of input lag so I guess RTings got the entire review wrong, I may as well write an email to tell them to stop testing with their shitty equipment and their incompetent staff.

I love how you skimmed through the main input lag chart @240HZ which was done with an oscilloscope! And you do what? Jump on the fact that I added data from a Human Benchmark done @60HZ. Lol, your ignorance really baffles the mind.

I tend to agree that oscilloscope is only a limited way to test real-world latency. My preference for latency tests is a Present()-to-photons stopwatch with full parametric disclosure (most sites don't even properly disclose lag test stopwatching methodology), so that it also accomodates GPU output-level latency-cooperative behaviours.

There's really no way to silo display latency separately of the GPU because many sync technologies have latency co-operative behaviors where Display A-betterthan-B can invert B-betterthan-A with a single GPU-level setting change.

Things that can cause "A-better-than-B" become "B-better-than-A"
1. Change sensor location, or switch between photodide vs camera (pixel-vs-pixel versus first-anywhere).
2. Changing display setting (VRR on/off, strobe on/off)
3. Changing refresh rate (60Hz vs 240Hz)
4. Changing sync setting (VSYNC ON, VSYNC OFF, VRR, etc)
5. Changing lag stopwatch start parameter (VBI stopwatch start, Present() stopwatch start)
6. Changing lag stopwatch end parameter (GtG % setting, pixel-for-pixel change, first-anywhere change, etc)
7. Testing longer part of chain or less part of chain (one end of cable, both end of cable, transceiver/ramdac or bypass, etc)
8. Testing different colors (since GtG pixel change is different colors)
9. Testing towards actual human vision, versus testing towards abstract signal level irrelevant to human reaction times.

Changing any ONE of the above, can sometimes dramatically change lag numbers (sometimes by well over 10ms!!!). There might be no change on display A, but huge dramatic change (>10ms) on display B.

Over the last 5 years, I've already discussed the cesspool of latency tests in the Lag Testing forum. Single pixel lag tests can differ hugely from reaction time testing, because of periphal vision, because different pixels have different lags / lag gradients / lag volatility depending on parameters (refresh rate, scanconverting TCONs, strobe on/off, VRR on/off, pixel location, VSYNC ON/OFF, etc), where I've seen SO MANY displays leapfroag each other (B-better-A and A-better-B).

I am just going to put a generic disclaimer.

Lag Testing Disclaimer
1. Latency Tests Can Be Like Snowflakes.
2. No Two Snowflakes Are Alike.
3. You Can't Compare Lag Tests Across Sites.
4. Do Not Arbitrarily Bash Lag Tests Of Site A Over Site B
5. Instead, Please Complain About Lack Of Test Disclosure.
6. Lag Is Never A Single Number.
7. Lag Is A Complex Topic

A huge problem is lag test disclosure is lacking on many websites. Leo Bodnar is a 60fps VSYNC ON 0 MPRF lag tester that uses VBI stopwatch start and an unknown GtG stopwatch end with black-white pixel change color. SMTT 2.0 is a 1000fps VSYNC OFF two-display-differential latency tester that uses yellow-blue pixel change color.

And RLCSContender, I now suggest you stop saying any website's lag test is wrong. They just are all using different lag stopwatches different from each other. Just simply complain, "Websites don't show full latency testing disclosure". (And I will also complain here: Your latency testing disclosure is incomplete too). Will be starting to work on improved latency testing standardization.

Also, the lowest lag is the first pixel below a tearline during VSYNC OFF, so even tearline location can vary display lag, and VSYNC OFF bypasses scanout latency (on some displays, TOP=CENTER=BOTTOM for VSYNC OFF, where BOTTOM is the same 3ms as TOP), but totally changes to TOP<CENTER<BOTTOM or TOP>CENTER>BOTTOM on other setting changes (sync setting, strobe setting, etc).

Now, also, GtG10%-GtG50% is roughly the approximate point where pixels become visible to human eyes (reaction time clocks start). Sometimes it's very delayed from GtG0% start and sometimes it's almost instantaneous. If a site measures only one lag number, it's best to carbon-copy as close as possible to human vision, and choose a human-visible GtG number (not darn near GtG0%, not darn near GtG100%). How you tune your GtG stopwatch stop (within your noise margins of your oscilloscope, of which is totally different for different brands) can dramatically mean different lag for real-world human reaction. Also, moreover, peripheral vision exists. An enemy that shows up in a different part of the screen can be different lag than an enemy that shows up at crosshairs. And a full screen explosion flash can become visible far before screen center.

Lag Tests Are Like Snowflakes. No Two Are Alike
Ideally, only compare lag numbers between the same reviewer/same site/same person.

So, the websites aren't being dishonest. It's just a simply lag-testing-parameters disclosure problem. I'm smart enough to acknowledge that.

[WayUpGaming]

@RLCSContender

$499 canadian for the MSI Optix MAG251RX and $549 canadian for the ACER Predator XB273X....which one you going with at these prices?

[kofman13]

*****Breaking NEWS*****

My replacement acer predator xb273 x came today. My previous one was badly tuned(it wasn't tuned at all, it was stuck at the Acer nitro XV273x OD tuning. (acer rep from canada informed me via youtube and had me send it in for a replacement.



This is the one they sent me and, the TUNING is excellent. This predator JUMPS a lot of monitors it should be in the very top. I will use two oscilloscopes for this because my cheaper digital oscilloscope is can't give me consistent rise/fall times.

I will do a double review coming up with the vg259qm and the acer predator xb273x since they arrived relatively close to each other. And how they fare against the beast MSI MAG251rx.

but yes, these THREE(FOUR if you count the vg279qm) are the fastest 240hz(280hz on the asus) IPS monitors.


Peak performance

1. Asus TUF VG259qm
2. Asus TUF VG279qm
3. MSI Optix MAG251rx
4. Acer predator xb273x
5. Dell Alienware AW2521HF
6. Dell Alienware AW2720HF

Response time to overshoot ratio

1. Acer predator xb273x
2. MSI MAG251rx
3. Dell Alienware AW2521HF/AW2720hf)
4. Asus VG279qm
5. Asus VG259qm

Acer Predator xb273 x (clickable)



MSI Optix MAG251rx (clickable)



Dell Alienware AW2521HF



heres all 3 UFOs on the acer predator

im gonna get the predator 273x g sync this week or next. how would i know if i had a badly tuned one like you did? so i know if i have to return it

[ItwasLuck]

Imagine unironically believing that a team of professional testers who reviewed 110 monitors in the past years have no idea of how to properly test for input lag

IIRC RLCScontender previously said something about ELMB-Sync having 7-11ms of input lag so I guess RTings got the entire review wrong, I may as well write an email to tell them to stop testing with their shitty equipment and their incompetent staff.

I love how you skimmed through the main input lag chart @240HZ which was done with an oscilloscope! And you do what? Jump on the fact that I added data from a Human Benchmark done @60HZ. Lol, your ignorance really baffles the mind.

I tend to agree that oscilloscope is only a limited way to test real-world latency. My preference for latency tests is a Present()-to-photons stopwatch with full parametric disclosure (most sites don't even properly disclose lag test stopwatching methodology), so that it also accomodates GPU output-level latency-cooperative behaviours.

There's really no way to silo display latency separately of the GPU because many sync technologies have latency co-operative behaviors where Display A-betterthan-B can invert B-betterthan-A with a single GPU-level setting change.

Things that can cause "A-better-than-B" become "B-better-than-A"
1. Change sensor location, or switch between photodide vs camera (pixel-vs-pixel versus first-anywhere).
2. Changing display setting (VRR on/off, strobe on/off)
3. Changing refresh rate (60Hz vs 240Hz)
4. Changing sync setting (VSYNC ON, VSYNC OFF, VRR, etc)
5. Changing lag stopwatch start parameter (VBI stopwatch start, Present() stopwatch start)
6. Changing lag stopwatch end parameter (GtG % setting, pixel-for-pixel change, first-anywhere change, etc)
7. Testing longer part of chain or less part of chain (one end of cable, both end of cable, transceiver/ramdac or bypass, etc)
8. Testing different colors (since GtG pixel change is different colors)
9. Testing towards actual human vision, versus testing towards abstract signal level irrelevant to human reaction times.

Changing any ONE of the above, can sometimes dramatically change lag numbers (sometimes by well over 10ms!!!). There might be no change on display A, but huge dramatic change (>10ms) on display B.

Over the last 5 years, I've already discussed the cesspool of latency tests in the Lag Testing forum. Single pixel lag tests can differ hugely from reaction time testing, because of periphal vision, because different pixels have different lags / lag gradients / lag volatility depending on parameters (refresh rate, scanconverting TCONs, strobe on/off, VRR on/off, pixel location, VSYNC ON/OFF, etc), where I've seen SO MANY displays leapfroag each other (B-better-A and A-better-B).

I am just going to put a generic disclaimer.

Lag Testing Disclaimer
1. Latency Tests Can Be Like Snowflakes.
2. No Two Snowflakes Are Alike.
3. You Can't Compare Lag Tests Across Sites.
4. Do Not Arbitrarily Bash Lag Tests Of Site A Over Site B
5. Instead, Please Complain About Lack Of Test Disclosure.
6. Lag Is Never A Single Number.
7. Lag Is A Complex Topic

A huge problem is lag test disclosure is lacking on many websites. Leo Bodnar is a 60fps VSYNC ON 0 MPRF lag tester that uses VBI stopwatch start and an unknown GtG stopwatch end with black-white pixel change color. SMTT 2.0 is a 1000fps VSYNC OFF two-display-differential latency tester that uses yellow-blue pixel change color.

And RLCSContender, I now suggest you stop saying any website's lag test is wrong. They just are all using different lag stopwatches different from each other. Just simply complain, "Websites don't show full latency testing disclosure". (And I will also complain here: Your latency testing disclosure is incomplete too). Will be starting to work on improved latency testing standardization.

Also, the lowest lag is the first pixel below a tearline during VSYNC OFF, so even tearline location can vary display lag, and VSYNC OFF bypasses scanout latency (on some displays, TOP=CENTER=BOTTOM for VSYNC OFF, where BOTTOM is the same 3ms as TOP), but totally changes to TOP<CENTER<BOTTOM or TOP>CENTER>BOTTOM on other setting changes (sync setting, strobe setting, etc).

Now, also, GtG10%-GtG50% is roughly the approximate point where pixels become visible to human eyes (reaction time clocks start). Sometimes it's very delayed from GtG0% start and sometimes it's almost instantaneous. If a site measures only one lag number, it's best to carbon-copy as close as possible to human vision, and choose a human-visible GtG number (not darn near GtG0%, not darn near GtG100%). How you tune your GtG stopwatch stop (within your noise margins of your oscilloscope, of which is totally different for different brands) can dramatically mean different lag for real-world human reaction. Also, moreover, peripheral vision exists. An enemy that shows up in a different part of the screen can be different lag than an enemy that shows up at crosshairs. And a full-screen explosion flash can become visible far before the screen center.

Lag Tests Are Like Snowflakes. No Two Are Alike
Ideally, only compare lag numbers between the same reviewer/same site/same person.

So, the websites aren't being dishonest. It's just a simply lag-testing-parameters disclosure problem. I'm smart enough to acknowledge that.

Thank you so much for the information. For this reason, I try to compare lag tests between the same site (RTINGS in particular). I just find it completely baffling that they can have such a different score with the VG279QM compared to the Acer Nitro XV273X. I say this because all of their other data on previous Fast IPS monitors are quite similar.

The only explanation for such a huge deviation is down to the fact that maybe they tested the ASUS at 280HZ which I think is a fair assumption. That would explain the huge deviation between the two monitors and I trust RTINGS with all their reviews especially monitor related. So this is what might explain the huge difference in input lag.

You even mentioned that changing the refresh rate can cause a A->B and B->A comparison to be inherently flawed. I am sure that their testing was done 240HZ vs 280Z which would explain such a drastic difference in input lag.

I am 100% sure that the input lag of the Acers is less than the ASUS, I have tested my friend's ASUS VG259QM quite thoroughly and I have had my Acer XB253Q GX for over a month now. I have done countless tests, I went as far as to purchase a colorimeter which I am now returning for a better one. i1Display Studio -> i1Display Pro (for the longevity, the Pro uses a filter that will outlast the Studio and also it calibrates 60% faster)

***UPDATE*** My assumptions were correct and they tested the input lag of the ASUS VG279QM @ 280HZ! And I quote:

Adam Babcock (RTINGS.com)
"Not a typo, this was measured at 280Hz."


I can see where therein lies the problem, everyone has a different testing methodology for lag. While I agree that RLCScontender's methods aren't perfect, at least he is using the same equipment for all the tests.

I believe he is going to try using two oscilloscopes this time around so the numbers will certainly change. I agree that a lack of test disclosure is to blame. Everyone in the monitor review industry should be working together to get accurate results. At the end of the day, we are all trying to get the best monitor for our use case.

I also believe that input lag should be measured at 120HZ along with the typical 60HZ and 240HZ. This way most consumers can make a better purchase knowing which monitor will give them the best performance in the majority of games rather than just a few (ie. CSGO/Valorant/LoL).

Back in the days, we had to deal with either low input lag with TN panels or beautiful colors with H-IPS panels like the HP LP2475W (which I have to this day) which suffered from input lag.

Finally, I can say we reached a point in display technology, where we can have the best of both worlds! It's great to see us argue over which Fast IPS panel is best because, at the end of the day, we all have some quite spectacular displays!

There was something you said earlier on this thread Chief which really got me thinking. Are you saying that the Acer XB273Q X can be tweaked the way the XL2540 can? I am assuming this is down to it having a native G-SYNC module. In that case, tweaking with lightboost (or ToastyX) might give us better motion clarity than all of the other monitors.

Also, I would like to commend you on your integrity. You could have mentioned the Viewsonic over and over in this thread, or spoken about how amazing the blur reduction is but instead you kept 100% neutral entirely. I am glad to see that BlurBluster is making progress in the monitor market, testing, and certifying that Viewsonic was a HUGE step in the right direction.

I just hope that mainstream manufacturers such as Acer and ASUS catch wind of this and hopefully in the not too distant future, we might have BlurBuster Certified Acer/ASUS monitors!!

[ItwasLuck]

Imagine unironically believing that a team of professional testers who reviewed 110 monitors in the past years have no idea of how to properly test for input lag

IIRC RLCScontender previously said something about ELMB-Sync having 7-11ms of input lag so I guess Rtings got the entire review wrong, I may as well write an email to tell them to stop testing with their shitty equipment and their incompetent staff.

I am not saying their tests are wrong. I have given over 10 recommendations (which led to purchases) using RTINGS reviews on Reddit in the past MONTH alone. I trust RTINGS just like the next person but I believe they performed the input lag test at native 280HZ.

Just look at every other fast IPS monitor they tested, they all use the same panels 27" and 25" accordingly, and guess what? The tests show that they all perform quite similarly. But then comes the VG279QM which somehow is 2.5x faster than the Acer XV273X?

Even RLCSContender concluded early on that with ULL ON, it has by far the lowest input lag.

The only explanation for such a disparity is if they were using the ASUS @ 280HZ (which is definitely conceivable). Please keep in mind, I have thoroughly tested the 25" version, the ASUS VG259QM. These kinds of performance differences cannot be down to "oh well the ASUS was better tuned". You cannot tune out hardware limitations and these monitors use the exact same panels.

***UPDATE*** My assumptions were correct and they tested the input lag of the ASUS VG279QM @ 280HZ! And I quote:

Adam Babcock (RTINGS.com)
"Not a typo, this was measured at 280Hz."

The Acers were always known to have tuned the panels the best in achieving the lowest input lag. But even then, they weren't tuned to that order of magnitude better than the others. Furthermore, the XB3 line even has much better Q/C than prior Acer displays. Out of a test pool of 15 individuals, I found that only one person had an issue with their Acer and that was down to a driver issue. But despite that, Acer have had excellent Q/C with the most consistent colors and minimal backlight bleed and IPS glow.

The ASUS however is known to have quite a bit of variance just like the Dells. Just look through this thread and see how many people have gotten ASUS panels with crazy amounts of BLB.

I am not trying to say that one is better than the other, unfortunately no monitor is perfect.

But what I can conclude (and others should as well) is that if you want the best Fast IPS Panel for gaming, it comes down to your use case.

IF you are gaming mostly at sub 200HZ, the MSI MAG251RX and the Acers are by far the best.
But, if you are gaming at 200HZ+ consistently, the ASUS VG259QM is the best monitor to have.

The input lag of the Acers is still better than the ASUS but there is no getting around how well traditional ELMB works on the ASUS, hell even ELMB SYNC works perfectly if you are gaming at 200FPS+ constantly.

I just wish ASUS would unlock OD when using ELMB, then it would definitely be one of the most versatile Fast IPS monitors!

And for the Acer, if only Acer would allow you to strobe at 144HZ or 240HZ but no if you get the XB253Q GX, you are stuck at BFI @120HZ. I might be nitpicking at this point but I have not seen such amazing motion clarity before as I have on the Acer. With the Acer, we have finally achieved CRT like input lag. The ASUS does this quite well too but only at 280HZ. a5hun did an amazingly in-depth review on the VG279QM. I just hope he picks up an Acer XB253Q GX for testing. Hell, if he is reading this I am willing to send YOU a brand new one for testing purposes!

We should all work together here instead of arguing over who is right and who is wrong. At the end of the day, we are a community that wants to see display technology improve further to the point where we might see 1000HZ panels in the near future.

I mean, look at Dell and ASUS, we'll be having 360HZ panels quite soon! And with the new 3000 series of cards, I am sure we will be able to run those panels to their max.

[ItwasLuck]

im gonna get the predator 273x g sync this week or next. how would i know if i had a badly tuned one like you did? so i know if i have to return it

The best way to check would be by going into the OSD and checking the display's info. It's not something I would worry about, I completely believe that his issue was a one-off. For a manufacturer to send a new monitor with a different model's OD tuning is NOT normal.

[kofman13]

im gonna get the predator 273x g sync this week or next. how would i know if i had a badly tuned one like you did? so i know if i have to return it

The best way to check would be by going into the OSD and checking the display's info. It's not something I would worry about, I completely believe that his issue was a one-off. For a manufacturer to send a new monitor with a different model's OD tuning is NOT normal.

Thank you so much for the help and your input. Two questions about color:
1. Is your Acer IPS like the 273 I’m getting or TN? The 99%sRGB, 75% adobe, 83% DCI-P3 your monitor got after calibration, if I get around there on my future monitor I’m getting, is that considered good enough for content consumption and enthusiast (non professional) photo/video editing? My current 2017 LG ultrWide is what I use to edit and It has apparently 99%srgb in the specs but doesn’t say anything about adobe or the other one. Never calibrated it though. (RLCSContender said the MSI has much bigger color gamut but so far the features of Acer are winning me over because in the end I’m getting a gaming monitor not a photo editing monitor)
That brings me to next question, calibration. So I’m looking into different ones. Does calibrating make a big difference? I would like to know my monitor is looking it’s best and truest to standards. especially since I will be using two monitors side by side daily, I should try to make them look identical color wise. What’s the difference between the “studio” one you have and the “pro” model of the calibrator you had? Worth double price? Also there is ones called like x rite “color monkey “ for much cheaper. Are those not good?

[RLCSContender*]

axaro, on page 22 i've already addressed that. But i will copy and paste it for you anyway.

I don't speak for everyone when it comes to buying these super high refresh rate monitors, but to me, the only thing i really care about is input lag and response times. I'm a competitive gamer and i hate losing and if i were to lose, rest assure it wasnt' because of any monitor disadvantages, but the skill of the player.

On one of the major review websites, they really think the slowest and poorly tuned 240hz IPS the nitro xv273x is better than the alienware because it has "better color uniformity" or "ergonomics" or "better color accuracy out of the box". i'm just baffled how they aren't taking into account the target demographic that I believe buy these super high refresh rate monitors. Then again, their criteria is theirs and not mine, so i cannot really criticize them because they aren't abiding by my criteria on why i should buy a super high refresh rate monitor. I just don't agree, but then again, there's always a possibility of affiliate marketing bias that come into play(not naming any names, so i've refrained from calling anyone out)

link to page 22

[Moderator Note -- Removed all-caps / formatting / inserted link]

[Siye]

After reading all of this thread recently from start to finish i want to thank everyone for all the information provided, though i have some questions. Im here to buy a monitor and i need some advice. My 3 choices going off what iv seen from this thread are:-

- ASUS TUF VG259QM
- MSI MAG251RX
- Acer Predator XB253QGX

Im strictly a PC gamer, ill be playing Quake Live, Warzone and Fortnite. So just FPS shooters really.... Furthermore in Fortnite i can for the most part get over 200 FPS the majority of the time or close to it. However it warzone getting over 200 FPS constantly might be hard. I want the smoothest experience all around, id prefer to set it and leave it but if i had to change settings for warzone i could.

So i have some questions... If i use ELMB sync on the ASUS im worried it might be too dull to get an enjoyable experience. Though iv heard it can go upto 200nits brightness in ELMB mode and is much brighter than other monitors with ELMB, i have no experience to say if the dullness will steering me away from it. Also from what iv read 280 with OD 80 / regular ELMB is the best mode to go if your hitting over 200 FPS but below 200 FPS it suffers? Or at the very least impressive if you want the best motion clarity? Will i suffer if leave the mode on 280 hertz with OD 80 and change games and get only 170 FPS in warzone? Will i get any EXTRA input lag than i would with any of the other monitors? If i dont like ELMB on the ASUS does this make the ASUS the worst choice? Whats better between the MSI, ACER and ASUS strictly for FPS gaming without ELMB? (incase i dont want to use it). I have seen people say set the ASUS to 240 and OD 60 but isnt this counter-intuitive? Yes it might not overshoot atall but wont respone times suffer in that case compared to others or compared to 280@80? In games such as fortnite as mentioned i can hit over 200 FPS often and the words "peak proformance #1" look applealing but whats the reality and/or other variables? ... if it dips below say to 160 FPS and obviously most people get 1% Lows and FPS drops here and there, also for example rocket launchers or smoke grenades in many games can cause huge FPS drops so..... whats the adverse effects? Will it suffer more than another monitor? Is this only use ELMB that this is an issue below 200fps or will it act the same as any other monitor thats not constantly reaching its max refresh rate?

Currently on Amazon in the UK the only monitor in stock is the ASUS TUF VG259QM, Though the MSI seems to be a solid choice and maybe the acer which has been mentioned towards the end of this thread. Do i just buy it, is it good enough or do i wait it out and wait for stock of another which could take awhile? Im currently on a Acer Predator XB271HU @165hertz and have been using this for many years and its served me well.. I do acctually play competitively even won 200 dollars on fortnite a year ago in a tournament. However i know my hardware lets me down and its time for a change. Also i just bought the OMEN x27 and returned it in 2 days. The monitor looked disgusting, the viewing angles mainly. I just cant go to a TN panel after so long with this ISP.

Hoping one of you with the knowledge can point me in the right direction as im sure this thread was started to help the customer and not just to constantly debate speeds. Thanks for any advice. Cheers.