05/22/2020 UPDATE. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

[Siye]

thanks for the review im waiting for part 3 on the Asus TUF VG259qm. Be intresting to see your results over its bigger brother the 27 inch version.

[kofman13]

Part 1 Acer Predator XB273x review cont...



vs MSI MAG251RX. Clearly, the XB273X is faster and has less overshoot and input lag compared to the MSI MAG251rx, so to most ppl i'ts a no brainer that it can easily beat it. Now hold your horses.

1. 240hz backlight strobing>>144hz backlight strobing
2. HDR>>>no HDR
3. 500 nits>>>350 nits
4. 1200:1 contrast>>1000:1 contrast
5. 118-133% SRGB>>>99% SRGB
6. Best Gaming OSD/APP>>>no gaming OSD app
7. upcoming ZERO latency option via APP
7. Focal point advantage advantage>>>>focal point disadvantage unless...




For the acer predator to beat the MSI MAG251rx in competitive gaming, you would need to follow these steps.




40-52 inches distance is good to match the 24-30 inch focal point of 24.5" monitors





MSI focal point(24-30 inches)



acer predator xb273x focal point 40-52 inches. (this is the presumption that u have 20/20 vision, if you are far sighted or near sighted u can either sit closer or further than the one i measured off what i learned in the physiology of vision.

the gist of it is this. when you play a game, you have to move your retina FURTHER than someone owning a 24.5" monitor sitting from the same distance. Which means you will be reacting more SLOWLY than someone who has a better focal point than you. So although yuo may have an input lag advantage and a g2g advantage, if u dont' have a focal point advantage, you won't win.

Keep in mind, the MSI has a lot of tricks up its sleeve. Upcoming zero latency and its unfair Gaming OSD app(the predator doesn't have an OSD gaming app that i know of)

One advantage of a larger monitor is that things are bigger. Which means better precision when going for head shots or in rocket league better precision when shooting/dunking/passing/etc. Andi f you sit 40-52 inches away, u won't have any focal point disadvantages compared to someone with a 24.5" monitor

Most people don't like to run those apps in the background, anything you can do on that you can also do in the firmware. The app won't reduce latency. There's no way, unless the firmware changes. I personally don't use any of those features, only black eq in some situations.
About the focal point, i'm using 27" and yes I feel it in Apex, easy fix, increase FOV. You can easily adjust to it.

I have utmost respect for RLCSContender and all the work he does reviewing and all his big brain know how, knowing more than i will ever know about monitors, but about that focal length. i know the "optimal distances" but almost nobody would sit that far even for 24" inches. even "competitive gamers" look at 90% of pro CS and LOL players and more their faces are literally pressed up against the screen half the time lol. sitting 24-32 or up to 50 inches away for 27 inch looks so ridiculous. even the distance you show for the MSI, you would have to have a second desk for just your mouse and keyboard or a second table in front of your desk. and maybe binoculars to see things in the game in the distance. maybe not for rocket league but for a BR liek apex legends or escape from tarkov or other games, NO way you are going to spot an enemy on the horizon sitting that far and having such a small viewing angle

[kofman13]

Literally ordering the predator XB273 X tonight i want to make sure this is the one yall are talking about : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087GCYTLL
Just to double check, this can do Blur reduction strobing AND g sync variable refresh at the same time? or do you have to choose between having g sync OR blur reduction? (since it has native g sync module)
sorry if you guys mentioned this already theres SOOO many pages and so much info for me to learn i forgot

[dadaw]

ordered too! Thank you so much for everything you do here Mr RLCSContender and greetings from Morocco

[kofman13]

ordered too! Thank you so much for everything you do here Mr RLCSContender and greetings from Morocco

Which did you get?

[Chief Blur Buster]

Acer Predator XB273X review.
[snip]

Now...

Math classroom teacher mode...

incorrect-rounding.png (5.86 KiB) Viewed 4822 times

Incorrect rounding procedure.

Now, 1/60 = 16.6666666666666666666666666666666667

In actuality, the 6 repeats infinitely, and 7 is the last digit rounded off. Now, 60 Hz is often not always exactly 60 Hz on all monitors and GPUs, often fractionals show up at www.testufo.com/refreshrate such as 60.001 or 59.997. So your 16.666666666666[...] will be even more imperfect. Nontheless, it'll usually be a 16.67 when rounded to the nearest 2 decimal digits -- NOT 16.6.

So, if you're trying to sync-up significant digits, 2 digits, you're supposed to use 16.67 and not trunctate. A math teacher would give you a mark knockoff for that. Also, while the other test data is very valid, the 60-144-240 is a redflag of potential mistests, so I'm going to have to ask for more information.

So more accurately, if you do keep using that many significant digits, it should have been:

16.67ms + 0.03ms = 16.70ms

You data additionally suggests this panel is scanrate multisync at 144Hz and 240Hz, but not at 60Hz. I've never seen that before, so please re-provide the output data that shows this. Most 240Hz panels have tended to show scan-converting behavior at both 144Hz and 60Hz, so requires testing passes again.

Also, most LCD panels are unable to start GtG that quickly at the 0.03ms, unless you're testing at literally GtG1% (or a very early curve-start value). So I'm assuming you're watching well before human reaction time trigger. I'm not a fan of arbitrary latency values that can vary a lot -- I have seen many "0.0X" and "0.X" numbers actually be "2.x" vs "1.x" because of different curve shapes for different colors, so I prefer human-visible-photons GtG% triggers like GtG10% or GtG50%, for more real-world comparision of display lag to human reaction time. One can continue to use early GtG-triggers for stopping the lag stopwatch. But even rated GtG=3ms of different panels (or even of different colors) can end up becoming different lags to midpoint GtG, such as GtG10%. Because of different curve shapes especially for different colors/different temperatures/etc. Also the GtG curve sometimes kicks differently at lower Hz vs higher Hz because of pixel-row-buffering delays of a slower-transmitting signal versus faster-transmitting signal, so seeing duplicate 0.03's (rather than 0.02 vs 0.03 vs 0.05 etc.) creates potentially suspicious data.

0.03 also veers into DisplayPort micropacket latency granularity territory (and even, sometimes, latency jitter becomes visible and GPU-specific latency behaviors -- especially if multiplexed with multiple display streams and audio), and micropacket latency varies at different refresh rates sometimes due to different clock speeds, but newer DisplayPort has switched to a fixed bandwidth link (max data rate) with micropackets spacing apart the pixel row delivery in display scanout.

Now, even if this data is already 'perfect', I also tend to dismiss synthetic lag numbers (when it's not yet generating human-visible photons) much like I dismiss synthetic hard disk benchmarks. It's ultra-low-lag, but if we're cherrypicking that second decimal digit (and I caught some errors on this), then it has to be done correctly -- I'm going to call this out...

Please watch the lag data like a hawk. I'll call out lag disclosures problems a bit more, I'm afraid I'm going to have to say your lag results are partially corrupted/invalid because of some mis-steps and error margins.

So to help amend this -- I think you should write a thesis/essay-quality paper (1 page) about your lag testing methodology. No all-caps, no color codes, no social-media-meming, to help this thread understand your lag tests better. Your previous post about latency tests does exist, but I'm asking you to write a brand new post now -- properly re-describing. Oscilloscope is good, but there's always weak links, and reusing 0.03 the way you did does not appear to be correct test procedure. Re-describe your lag testing methodology, more fully, including what you do for 60Hz, 144Hz and 240Hz, and repost correct results., and needs to be correspondingly upgraded. So I need to see a higher quality testing disclosure.

Given scanout latency -- how consistent is your photodiode location? Also, even mis-positioning the photodiode by 1 millimeter actually change lag numbers significantly at the 2nd decimal digit already, so you must be putting the photodiode quite flush to the top edge in a very consistent location, to get consistent glassfloor 0.03. You'll see lag increases for every 1 pixel you move the photodiode downwards, due to scanout latency found at www.blurbusters.com/scanout

Some details:
-- For scan-converting TCONs doing 60Hz on a 240Hz panel, only 3/4ths of a refresh cycle is buffered (~12-13ms) relating to 240Hz versus (240Hz minus 60Hz), to allow the diverged scanout (cable, panel) to 'meet' at bottom edge. This creates a strange latency linearity behaviour along the screen vertical dimension because of different scanout differentials for different pixel rows. So you have a latency range of [~12ms....~16.7ms] for TOP-vs-CENTER-vs-BOTTOM for a scanrate-converting scaler/TCON (a panel that buffers a slow-scanning 60Hz signal and does an accelerated-scanout). Post about why 60Hz fixed-Hz mode often is laggy on 240Hz monitors. (This usually also occurs with all refresh rates below 240Hz, but there are some weird exceptions and weird scan velocities at different Hz on different panels).

[RLCSContender*]

lol you're absolutely correct chief, it's 16.70ms not 16.63ms 16.666667+0.03. not 16.6+3

Other than forgetting specific details, i do have a habit of rounding as well. Such as the MSI mag251rx at 3ms when in reality it's closer to 3.1ms but for the sake of simplicity and laziness, i tend to round or forget the specific Minute details which can be off by trivial amounts.

I figured, message board forums are informal settings. But if this was a formal environment like a college math class, then rest assure i won't forget the exact details. Then again, what is considered informal/formal is subjective from place to place.

Those input lag numbers were the measurements we got when looking at those plots of stimuli( signals or in this case, data that was derived from my inputs to the monitor) vs time(ms) from waveforms involved from the digital oscilloscope. Again, if you are so much of a skeptic, feel free to purchase the monitor and extrapolate the stimuli+time waveforms yourself and feel free to prove us wrong @60hz.

My friend did most of the work since i was doing it under his guidance so feel free to email him(i will forward this message to him) at [email protected]

. I realized that getting the right response times and input lag was VERY important so i had to make sure i was as accurate as possible so i had my friend james come over to see what i was doign right/wrong. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of things i was doing incorrectly but he explained to me WHY i was doing it incorrectly such as (example)

"don't face the photodiode point blank to the monitor"
"why not?"
"do YOU view your monitor within point blank range? changes of photons from white to black can be distorted and waveforms may give inaccurate signal thx to LCD pressure/heat/etc"

stuff like that.

with LCD, i know some of the "basics" of how they work but for me to break down how they work specifically about scan rate timing RELATIVE the stimuli(signals of photon changes) and time that is measured in waves is BEYOND my scope of practice, i really only know one half of the equation, but when it comes to LCD half, i really cannot break it down. I've never taken a computer science class. Electrical Engineering only overlap with monitors when measuring rise, fall times, and latency. For me to break down specifically the process of how the LCD display coincides with those wavelength measurments of input stimuli vs time is beyond my scope of practice. I can make valid inferences but knowing how this topic gets a lot of traffic, i really don't want to give out information that may or may not be true(unless there is something that can back me up, with this case my oscilloscope data).

rest assure, these aren't just "random numbers" that i just happen to get. I'm fairly confident that these benchmarks that i've tested are accurate. However, i urge anyone else here to fact check me since i don't want the consumers to get accidental false information. nobody is perfect but i'm fairly confident in my testing(and my friend james(who's an electrical engineer) testing) that these numbers are accurate.

I wish i had a leo bodnar tool though, i've heard that 60-120hz that tool is the most accurate way to measure latency on any LCD display. I think i will buy one since i will be using the ps5 and xbox series x in a competitive manner.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Ok...

I wish i had a leo bodnar tool though, i've heard that 60-120hz that tool is the most accurate way to measure latency on any LCD display. I think i will buy one since i will be using the ps5 and xbox series x in a competitive manner.

Leo Bodnar is only reasonably accurate for determining 1920x1080 60Hz VSYNC ON (0 MPRF) latency.
Its permanently hardcoded lag stopwatch parameters are:

Leo Bodnar Publicly-Known Disclosure
Resolution = 1920x1080
Refresh = 60Hz
Sync Tech = VSYNC ON (just-in-time, no frame queue)
Lag Stopwatch Start = VBI at GPU output (Unknown which scanline though; Front Porch, Back Porch, or Sync pixels: 0.67ms error margin for VT1125 1080p 60Hz)
Lag Stopwatch End = Unknown GtG% (Leo Bodnar proprietary, a +/- LCD GtG error margin)
Lag Colors Chosen = White + Black (won't measure different lag of other colors)
Combined Error Margin Estimate = Unknown VBI time + Unknown GtG time

Also, not recommended for testing higher-Hz lag. It will not be comparable to 120Hz and 144Hz lag because of scan converting scaler/TCON, so do not use the Leo Bodnar for benchmarking any refresh rate other than 60Hz. It will help you reveal which displays are good/bad for 60 Hz gaming consoles, however. This is because some high-Hz displays enable buffering for refresh rates lower than max Hz -- which means terrible 60Hz lag will hide the evidence of excellent 240Hz low-lagness.

Also, VSYNC ON lag measurements (Stopwatch start via blanking interval) cannot be directly compared with VSYNC OFF lag measurements (Stopwatch start via Present() scanout-bypassing lag) as many situations of "Monitor-A-Better-Than-B" swaps with "Monitor-B-Better-Than-B" when you change the latency stopwatch start variable.

Also, I'm working to create a new input latency measurement standardization, to improve the lag cesspool a bit.
(Spoiler: Blur Busters is developing a new hardware lag tester.)

TL;DR: Use Leo Bodnar only for determining if a display is good for 60Hz VSYNC ON (aka most console games).

[Blehhh]

Can someone correct me if im wrong. So im looking at the ASUS VG259QM as currently its the only monitor i can find to buy on amazon in the UK currently. I may wait for another monitor or wait to see if the MSI becomes in stock.....if this doesnt give me what im looking for. Iv made previous comments in regards to my sitution, still seeking help before i pull the trigger on buying it from amazon as 530 pounds which is like 600 dollars (Yes thats acctually the current price, not 320 like some of you US guys payed). So my questions are and from information iv gathered:-

At 240 @ 80 OD is gtg is 3.6ms

however monitor is best at 280 @ 80 OD if you reach the higher frame rates? but it gives a g2g time is reduced to 4.0ms despite being a higher refresh rate which is 0.4ms less but the trade off is better motion clarity? and every better with elmb (with a further 1.1ms added) if you can stay above 200 fps? Is this correct? what frames would i have to be hitting to make 280@80 worth while in practice?

If you cant reach 200 fps+ in the current game is it best to use 240@80 and you will get a better responce time or do you just stick to 280? i take it the better motion clarity is only a thing when over 240 fps or no? do you get better motion clarity regardless at 280@80 OD?

IS all of this what iv said accurate? Im no monitor expert and in desperate need of advice before i purchase. Litterally sat waiting on one or more of you knowledgable guys on here to give me the information i need or steer me clear of making the wrong choice? from what i can see its a solid monitor (only one i can get rn as stated).

Im no monitor expert either (so anyone can correct me if im wrong) but it seems like u wanting to buy the VG 259QM the 25inch version right. and the results you show seems to be taken from Tftcentral VG279QM the 27inch version. is still 2 different monitor using 2 different panels, the results will vary in terms of response time and input lag. :S
just letting you know before you purchase and cant return it.

[Blehhh]

Part 1 Acer Predator XB273x review cont...



vs MSI MAG251RX. Clearly, the XB273X is faster and has less overshoot and input lag compared to the MSI MAG251rx, so to most ppl i'ts a no brainer that it can easily beat it. Now hold your horses.

1. 240hz backlight strobing>>144hz backlight strobing
2. HDR>>>no HDR
3. 500 nits>>>350 nits
4. 1200:1 contrast>>1000:1 contrast
5. 118-133% SRGB>>>99% SRGB
6. Best Gaming OSD/APP>>>no gaming OSD app
7. upcoming ZERO latency option via APP
7. Focal point advantage advantage>>>>focal point disadvantage unless...




For the acer predator to beat the MSI MAG251rx in competitive gaming, you would need to follow these steps.




40-52 inches distance is good to match the 24-30 inch focal point of 24.5" monitors





MSI focal point(24-30 inches)



acer predator xb273x focal point 40-52 inches. (this is the presumption that u have 20/20 vision, if you are far sighted or near sighted u can either sit closer or further than the one i measured off what i learned in the physiology of vision.

the gist of it is this. when you play a game, you have to move your retina FURTHER than someone owning a 24.5" monitor sitting from the same distance. Which means you will be reacting more SLOWLY than someone who has a better focal point than you. So although yuo may have an input lag advantage and a g2g advantage, if u dont' have a focal point advantage, you won't win.

Keep in mind, the MSI has a lot of tricks up its sleeve. Upcoming zero latency and its unfair Gaming OSD app(the predator doesn't have an OSD gaming app that i know of)

One advantage of a larger monitor is that things are bigger. Which means better precision when going for head shots or in rocket league better precision when shooting/dunking/passing/etc. Andi f you sit 40-52 inches away, u won't have any focal point disadvantages compared to someone with a 24.5" monitor

As always thanks for making such long detailed review on your test results, really appreciate the effort. cant wait for the part 3 especially for vg 259qm. and your final thoughts on everything And which 2 monitors you be keeping before the 360hz monitor releases.
just double checking the Acer XB 273x input lag is 0.03ms right? and the MSI MAG 251rx is roughly 0.3ms, are both monitors in the correct decimals in input lag?
i probably got the wrong MSI mag 251rx input lag timing, but i cant find your full review for msi mag251rx in older threads /posts. i do apologize if i got the timing wrong in advance