05/22/2020 UPDATE. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

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Blehhh
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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by Blehhh » 20 Apr 2020, 04:56

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 12:54
Pursuit Camera Commentary [for above footage]: From the sync track point of view, camera exposure is incorrect according to camera-settings criteria. Dim the screen or use a professional camera app ("DSLRCamera" for iOS) to get longer camera exposures per freezeframe, in order to stack 2 refresh cycles per freezeframe. You'll get much worse images for mis-tracked freezeframes (multi images amplify a lot), but much better images for accurate-tracked freezeframes (it becomes more WYSIWYG). However, even 1-tickmark strobed pursuits are semi-useful to analyze -- especially strobe crosstalk analysis -- even if there's only 1 tickmark. Ideal pursuit camera footage should get at least 2, 3, or 4 tickmarks but can get difficult for end users, but a little more allowance is given for 1-tickmark pursuit camera exposures for strobed modes as long as it's done by end users rather than professional reviewers -- due to the way strobed modes have useful analysis even for stationary camera too
RLCScontender wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 12:41
the moment i saw those guidelines chief, i immediately tested my viewsonic's backlight strobing. And my god, u weren't joking about that red tint. Damn, i guess the viewsonic gets an "L" here
Yeah, the XG270 is vastly superior to the XG270QG if you definitely want strobing.
I've written about this in Nano IPS Red Phosphor Affects Strobing. Fortunately, this is generally not a problem when there is no backlight modulation. If you don't use strobing, then it generally does not matter -- the nice reds of the Nano IPS are beautiful. Stunning really.

But not everyone cares about color. Remember, 12% of human population is colorblind. There's different levels of colorblindness, similar to different levels of deafness. So they may see colors but not benefit as much.

Everyone has their reasons for preferring different panels. They might even have motion blur discomfort / headaches / nausea where TN is better for them. Or they earn thousands dollars from lower lag in esports. Or they are super-sensitive to ghosting/coronas. I've seen people benefit more from TN than IPS. And I've seen people benefit more from IPS than TN. Just like not everyone sees tearing. Or microstutters. Or DVD versus HDTV (like grandma). Etc. Etc. Everyone sees different.

Bottom line, respect IPS. Respect TN.
RLCScontender wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 12:41
Then again, look how clear the aliens are. THE MPRT is a good tradeoff for that overshoot.
Yeah. Not the world's best. Some TN panels are massively better than all IPS panels in low strobe crosstalk, when strobing is a high priority. But fortunately, certain IPS panels such as XG270 can successfully strobe straight into the TN ballpark! (Maybe not as well as 240Hz XL2546S at 240Hz, but it definitely does a great job at low-crosstalk 120Hz).
RLCScontender wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 12:41
but what the heck is that blue thing behind that alien? is that crosstalk? pixel smearing? or just motio n blur trail?
It's crosstalk as explained at www.blurbusters.com/crosstalk.
But it can include ghosting/corona style tinting.
Strobe crosstalk is essentially instantaneous chopping (brief interval flashes) along the GtG curve.
It's LCD GtG that overlaps multiple refresh cycles.

To understand "How Do Monitor Manufacturers Cram GtG between Refresh Cycles During Strobing To Reduce Strobe Crosstalk", please look at the high speed videos at:
www.blurbusters.com/lightboost/video
www.blurbusters.com/scanout
www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor
Or the famous old advanced page at
www.blurbusters.com/faq/creating-strobe-backlight

We've been doing this for years, so we know this stuff!
Hi,is my first time posting here. been reading most of the posts 1 by 1 about the debate witht he best IPS 240hz monitor. Currently im using a XB271HU acer and a GTX2080ti. Im playing mostly apex with settings mostly all set to low, i have always been wanting to test out a 240hz monitor. Chief with great respect, which of the 2 monitor would you recommend for games like Apex / Overwatch etc? Asus VG279QM or the MSI MAG251RX. been reading the forums for the past 3 days. trying to find the answer, but i assume these are the Two best IPS 240hz monitor at current date for gaming? if so which of these 2 would you recommend for me? thank you in advance and have a nice day :)

forii
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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by forii » 20 Apr 2020, 13:07

Blehhh wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 04:56
Hi,is my first time posting here. been reading most of the posts 1 by 1 about the debate witht he best IPS 240hz monitor. Currently im using a XB271HU acer and a GTX2080ti. Im playing mostly apex with settings mostly all set to low, i have always been wanting to test out a 240hz monitor. Chief with great respect, which of the 2 monitor would you recommend for games like Apex / Overwatch etc? Asus VG279QM or the MSI MAG251RX. been reading the forums for the past 3 days. trying to find the answer, but i assume these are the Two best IPS 240hz monitor at current date for gaming? if so which of these 2 would you recommend for me? thank you in advance and have a nice day :)
For apex/Overwatch I assume you can easily hit even 300 fps + with that 2080ti, so Asus will be better.

And for games when you have less than 200 fps the Msi wins.

So its actually a draw.

Also asus have 280Hz and better ELMB (more brighthness). = more clear visibility of moving object.

MSI is a little bit faster tho (3,2ms), but Im not sure if this 0.8ms matters for 240Hz. (asus got ~4ms), msi has wider colors.

Hard to say, for me its hard to see 0,0008 second difference, but dunno how the response time matters in competive games.

Maybe Chief adds something about response time, and what does it add to the game or flying enemies behind the wall.

Does the person who was 1ms response time see enemies faster jumping behind the wall, than a person who has a panel with 4ms??

Is response time the most important thing of monitors?

For me most important is motion blur. Because I play dynamic games, when enemies are running, jumping behind the wall etc

Also for me response time is marketing, and everything bellow 5ms is perfect for fast shooters.The most important is the blurry and motion clarity, which is pretty fine on the asus with 280Hz, thats why 240hz ips panels are nice for gaming, compare to 144hz IPS - these can be blurry compare to 144hz TN.

240hz IPS vs 144hz TN is pretty similar with motion blur.

240hz TN has better motion blur. than 240hz ips.. but you can get used to this, because its not that much blurry on 240hz ips, that you can't see the parts enemy (head, eyes, etc). If you like clear visibility, best motion blur you can turn ELMB and you will be for sure happy, but imo 240hz is enough, I play at 280hz (lesss lagier and much clear visibility) and im smashing every server, and being top1 in Cod Mw with top kills and score.

Ah and also asus has very good input lag. the lowest of all monitors

240hz ips is a universal monitor for gaming and movies also but probably 240hz TN only for gaming and 4k or 2k IPS for movies would be best.

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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Apr 2020, 13:40

Excellent questions, forii, I will follow up shortly -- I have to finish some deadlines first.
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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by RLCSContender* » 20 Apr 2020, 13:44

MSI's backlight strobing is better since the crosstalk isn't as aggressive compared to ELMB-SYNC and MSI's strobing is useable under 200hz making it practical for adaptic sync AAA competitive titles. Another thing, the MSi has three overdrive settings and all you have to do is put it on "faster" and that is ENOUGH TO ACCOMODATE the MSi's refresh rate adaptive sync range from 44hz-240hz with little do no overshoot. It's REALLY THAT simple

which means if i want to play playstation 5 or xbox series x AAA title at 60hz, I CAN with my MSI and i still keep my insanely low input lag and a 3.0-3.1ms g2g average. Same thing with adaptive sync ranges at 144hz, on it's "faster", it's still somewhat compliant to that refresh rate and keep low response times and low input lag. . if you want ZERO overshoot at 144hz, no problem, switch down to "fast" and it will be 100% compliant with that refresh rate and at around 4.4-4.6ms g2g average which is EXCELLENT at 144hz for an IPS monitor, that is equivalent to the NANO IPS monitors(the fastest IPS monitors at 1440p)

. Here's a point of reference, the best console monitor is the Gigabyte Aorus Fi27q-p/AD27qd/etc since it has one of the lowest g2g average at 60hz and the lowest input lag among the IPS monitors at 60-120hz. It will have 120hz 1440p HDR and adaptive sync at the same time(most other high end monitors don't have these kind of perks). Guess what? the MSI shattered it. The only downside though is that the FI27q-p from gigabyte has 95% dci p3 so it will look more vibrant when playing playstation 5 or xbox series x titles. Then again 3ms response time at 60hz on an IPS monitor is INSANE.

I had both the MSi and the Asus, and I chose the MSI because

1. 10 bit>>8 bit(1 billion colors (emulation since it's 8 bit+FRC) over16 million which means less color banding(more accurate colors), dithering, and smoother variances of all color ranges). And most important of all, less noticeable color uniformity. The Asus (especially if you are viewing whites, will start to have a yellow tint, so the 280hz asus will look like someone pissed on it. ThE MSI does have have this problem since it's color uniformity is superior.


2. MSI's overdrive implentation>>>>>>>Asus 280hz overdrive implementation. (all you gotta do is put it on "faster" and you are set for life. No need to touch overdrive ever again. Want to use console? no problem, "faster" there's virtually little to no overshoot at 60hz-120hz, which means 3.1ms response times and insanely low input lag(hardware unboxed was spot on). Want to play halo 6 on the xbox series x.
You want ZERO overshoot? no problem, "fast" is still a respectiable 4.4-4.6ms responses time which is still 100% complaint. For a point of reference, the "fast" response time is equivalent to the viewsonic elite xg270qg "standard" overdrive with variable overdrive g-sync ON on its 165hz overclocked refresh rate. The viewsonic nano is the fastest 1440p IPS monitor for anyone curious.

3. MSi's backlight strobing although is dim, there are easy work arounds. what I do is go to Nvidia control panel and simply adjust the brightness a few notches. Which means MPRT at 240hz is just as good (if not better) than ELMB-SYNC Just that i won't have "adaptive sync" on unison with it. But why would I care since adaptive sync has no practical uses at high framerates anyway, and that it will just introduce input lag as a tradeoff for less tearing(tearing at 240hz is imperceptible and will have zero impact on gameplay). The input lag adaptive sync will give however is MORE NOTICEABLE than the sublt and slight tears you may counter if you don't have adaptive sync.

all of the esports pros do NOT use adaptive sync due to input lag.

4. the MSI stand although is clearly inferior to the Asus, is not a problem. Just go to Amazon and purhcase a $24.99-$30.00 VESA. it's very easy to find them considering 24.5 inch monitors have plenty of compatibility of all the VESA stands.


5. 280hz elmb-sync, the MPRT 280hz asus wins by default since it will have better Motion Picture Response Time. and it's faster than virtually every TN not named the incoming 360hz g sync Tn coming out late this year. in my opinion, at these high framerates and refresh rates, there are diminishing returns to the point where MPRT will start to be redundant since motion blur at 240hz+ framerates is basically imperceptible for 99.999% of people and the margin of affect that it will have on a normal person is basically non-existent since. For me, i was unable to tell the difference on motion clarity on my 240hz MSI vs my 280hz asus w/ ELMB sync. This means that if playing against someone who has a competent 240hz monitor, ELMB-SYNC really won't be that much of an advantage since that person will also have good sharpness and clarity to fast moving objects. HOWEVER, if BOTH players are of equal skill, 280hz+ELMB SYNC will give that person a slight edge above ANY TN monitor.

6. PRICE #2.. $360 (the asus TUF vg259qm is cheaper though).

I put it as a draw but i ultimately chose the MSI. I just like the simplicity to not ever touch overdrive at "faster" ever again and that if i play a competitive playstation 5 or xbox series x title from 60-120hz, i'm still able to keep the 3.1g2g average and insanely low input lag since on "faster" setting, there's virtually little to no overshoot at lower refresh rates. Even on "fast" 4.4ms-4.6ms response time, there's 0 overshoot and 100% compliant with the refresh rate range which means no smearing. (unlike the asus where it's not even fast enough to accomodate 280hz at 20-30% complinace).


tldr; whichever is cheaper and is available get it. If u see a $300 price tag on the asus, buy the asus. otherwise buy the MSI.

i've tested almost efvery IPS monitor. the MSI is simply the best one. it's equivalent to the LG 27GL850-B that it has zero weaknesses and everything is ticked(HDR+backlight strobing+#1 in response time g2g average+#2 in colors(behind the 27gn750)+wide gamut at 10 bit(8 bit+FRC(the msi is the only 240hz ips monitor that has 10 bit 1 billion color capabilities).

THE BEST CONSOLE MONITOR which means it's future proofed and will be SUPER FAST playing competitive ps5 and series x games. When i tested my xbox one x on the MSI, i was able to have 1080p+120hz+VRR+HDR ON at the same time since its HDMI VRR range is 44-240hhz. All of the 240hz monitors have that feature FYI(except the alienware aw2521hf since it doesn't have HDR capabilities). , but I can attest that 60hz-120hz on "faster" is fucking legit on MSI. 3ms response times with virtually little to no overshoot on 60-120hz console?!!!, whoever tuned the overdrive setting for the MSi needs a raise. That's insane.
Last edited by RLCScontender on 20 Apr 2020, 15:28, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by RLCSContender* » 20 Apr 2020, 14:09

to anyone who even remotely believes the alienware aw2521hf has 1ms response time with no overshoot needs to get a dose of reality because even the fastest TN monitors struggle at 2ms with zero overshoot.

will keep it on a hush hush for now and i will write a detailed review about it next week. NO BULLSHIT, no affiliate marketing, no cherry picking. just the truth. Like i've said before, i'm doing this for the best interest of the consumer with no financial incentive. What I see, YOU WILL SEE.

have plenty of time on my hands thanks to the covid-19 quarantines. Might as well find a hobby to pass the time

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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by jnashville » 20 Apr 2020, 18:44

forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
Blehhh wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 04:56
Hi,is my first time posting here. been reading most of the posts 1 by 1 about the debate witht he best IPS 240hz monitor. Currently im using a XB271HU acer and a GTX2080ti. Im playing mostly apex with settings mostly all set to low, i have always been wanting to test out a 240hz monitor. Chief with great respect, which of the 2 monitor would you recommend for games like Apex / Overwatch etc? Asus VG279QM or the MSI MAG251RX. been reading the forums for the past 3 days. trying to find the answer, but i assume these are the Two best IPS 240hz monitor at current date for gaming? if so which of these 2 would you recommend for me? thank you in advance and have a nice day :)
For apex/Overwatch I assume you can easily hit even 300 fps + with that 2080ti, so Asus will be better.

And for games when you have less than 200 fps the Msi wins.

So its actually a draw.

Also asus have 280Hz and better ELMB (more brighthness). = more clear visibility of moving object.

MSI is a little bit faster tho (3,2ms), but Im not sure if this 0.8ms matters for 240Hz. (asus got ~4ms), msi has wider colors.

Hard to say, for me its hard to see 0,0008 second difference, but dunno how the response time matters in competive games.

Maybe Chief adds something about response time, and what does it add to the game or flying enemies behind the wall.

Does the person who was 1ms response time see enemies faster jumping behind the wall, than a person who has a panel with 4ms??

Is response time the most important thing of monitors?

For me most important is motion blur. Because I play dynamic games, when enemies are running, jumping behind the wall etc

Also for me response time is marketing, and everything bellow 5ms is perfect for fast shooters.The most important is the blurry and motion clarity, which is pretty fine on the asus with 280Hz, thats why 240hz ips panels are nice for gaming, compare to 144hz IPS - these can be blurry compare to 144hz TN.

240hz IPS vs 144hz TN is pretty similar with motion blur.

240hz TN has better motion blur. than 240hz ips.. but you can get used to this, because its not that much blurry on 240hz ips, that you can't see the parts enemy (head, eyes, etc). If you like clear visibility, best motion blur you can turn ELMB and you will be for sure happy, but imo 240hz is enough, I play at 280hz (lesss lagier and much clear visibility) and im smashing every server, and being top1 in Cod Mw with top kills and score.

Ah and also asus has very good input lag. the lowest of all monitors

240hz ips is a universal monitor for gaming and movies also but probably 240hz TN only for gaming and 4k or 2k IPS for movies would be best.
if i compare one of the fastest TN panel, the alienware aw2518h 240hz TN panel against the asus vg259qm.. i do not see any difference in game. ( i play csgo)

probably there might be a difference if u really test it out like what RLScontender do, the very technical details etc. but the human eye probably cant perceive any real world difference between 1ms and 2ms. If an enemy is peeking out a corner in the game, a 1ms and 2ms wont make a difference in the human eye, unless u have speed of the Flash or sonic the hedgehog haha..

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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Apr 2020, 19:24

I am looking forward to tests, but keep them honest -- and be respectful.
RLCScontender wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 14:09
What I see, YOU WILL SEE.
Only on a best-effort basis.
Be noted, not everyone sees identically. Everyone is sensitive to different things.

Whether it's the color primaries of every human eye is often off by a few nanometers, or focus/astig issues (glasses), or varying types and intensities of color blindness, or varying levels of motion blindness (Akinetopsia), or extreme sensitivities to very specific elements such as to brightness, color, blue light, motion blur, stroboscopics, ghosting, coronas, speckle/texture, uniformities, screendoor, etc. Even in similar vision, there's often slight differences.

A tester / hobbyist / oneself can only try our best to do some WYSIWYG representations of display elements (e.g. pursuit camera), even if the color accuracy might be different (trying to represent another monitor's color on a different screen) while accurately representing motion blur.
RLCScontender wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 14:09
What I see, YOU WILL SEE.
Be noted, not everyone sees identically. Everyone is sensitive to different things.

Whether it's the color primaries of every human eye is often off by a few nanometers, or focus/astig issues (glasses), or varying types and intensities of color blindness, or varying levels of motion blindness (Akinetopsia), or extreme sensitivities to very specific elements such as to brightness, color, blue light, motion blur, stroboscopics, ghosting, coronas, speckle/texture, uniformities, screendoor, etc. Even in similar vision, there's often slight differences. And even different parts of vision can have partial motion blindness, much like a human can have blurry vision on only part of their vision (eye problems can have nonuniformities), some by birth without the person even knowing about it for their entire life because it's so subtle or faint (like being only 3%-off or 5%-off relative to the average human). VISION IS COMPLEX and thus the "you will see" does not deserve all caps. ;)

People love to communicate hobbies, people love to test.

We just have to respect others when communicating our hobby. Even Chief Blur Buster occasionally makes mistakes and we're all only human.

Everybody who tests, can only try our best to do some WYSIWYG representations of elements (e.g. pursuit camera), even if the color accuracy might be different (trying to represent another monitor's color on a different screen).

It's important to nuance the "you will see". Even the two most identical-seeing humans are STILL also slightly different in vision, (just as no two snowflakes are alike, no two fingerprints are alike) like average primary sensitivity being a slightly different, or seeing slightly sharper (to the point where screendoor of even 1440p bothers them), to comfort (e.g. excess brightness or overcontrastiness comfort issues), to blurrier vision further away from the gazepoint, etc.

TL;DR: Biology of vision is surprisingly complex.
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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by jnashville » 20 Apr 2020, 20:24

i have asked 20 people from the gaming community that i know off to see which is more perceptible to the human eye,

high refresh rates or faster response times

Feedback i gotten basically the same. 60hz to 144hz refresh rate or higher is definitely noticeable.
4ms and 1ms response time is impossible to notice on the naked eye.

if i were to put 5 monitors side by side, hide the brands and models so that u will have no clue which is which, one with 5ms , 4ms , 2ms ,1ms and 0.5ms ... i am 100 percent sure no one can get it right.

It proves one thing, refresh rates up till maybe 240hz can be easily perceive, above that it takes a skilled eye and feel to notice the difference. Response times really is beyond the speed of the human eye to notice the difference.

a 1 ms monitor vs a 4 ms monitor makes really no performance difference IN GAME. not talking about taking an detailed measurement with high tech tools and stuff. Talking about players USING the monitor when playing games.

if i get a number 1 tournament csgo team to play on 4ms monitors vs an average online csgo team on 1ms monitors, the tournament number 1 csgo team will still wreck the other team because its all about gameplay and gamesense in a game. not about 4ms or 1ms which is totally imperceptible.
Last edited by jnashville on 20 Apr 2020, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Apr 2020, 20:26

forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
Hard to say, for me its hard to see 0,0008 second difference, but dunno how the response time matters in competive games.
One doesn't have to see the millisecond to win by the millisecond. There are many reasons the millisecond matters without being seen:

-- Motion blur effects. 1ms translates to 1 pixel per 1000 pixels/sec. You see this stuff in my multiple Area51 articles. blurbusters.com/area51.
-- Race-to-finish effects. Just like Olympics 100 meter sprints -- 2 players turn a corner in a game, see each other the same time, shoot at same time. The bullet that hits first will win the frag for that.
-- There are other reasons the millisecond matters.

Even with 128tick servers (8ms granularity) 1ms sooner means 1/8th chance you've got the earlier server tick and got the frag score in a simultaneous-shoot situation. Mind you, Internet latency is a bigger factor, but if it's a LAN game or FTTH with locals, the statistical noise can matter to the people who earn hundreds of thousands of dollars playing esports. The Olympics "cross finish" effect doesn't have to be felt to be won.

There are some variables like 4000 pixels/sec fps=Hz strobing where 0.25ms MPRT versus 0.5ms MPRT actually become human visible. If you have an adjustable-MPRT monitor (NVIDIA "ULMB Pulse Width", BenQ "Strobe Pulse Duty", ViewSonic "PureXP Levels" (March 2020+ firmwares)) please view TestUFO Panning Map Test at 3000 pixels/sec -- Google street labels 6-point text are unreadable at 1.0ms MPRT at 3000pixels/sec. You need 0.5ms MPRT to read those. And even 0.25ms vs 0.5ms MPRT becomes human visible! That's why Valve Index VR headset has achieved 0.3ms MPRT, since motion blur is even more important in virtual reality.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
Does the person who was 1ms response time see enemies faster jumping behind the wall, than a person who has a panel with 4ms??
1ms vs 4ms? That is already human visible in more ghosting/coronas (non-strobed) and massively more motion blur (strobed).

Image

Check out Making Of: Why Are TestUFO Display Motion Tests 960 Pixels Per Second?. One big one is because 960 is the closest number to 1000 that is evenly divisible by common refresh rates (60Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz). And now you are getting where I am getting -- 1 pixelwidth in the above image is 1 millisecond! So, 1ms vs 4ms can sometimes create 4x horizontally thicker ghosting effects. 1ms )(GtG90%) sometimes translates to 10ms (GtG100%) completeness, and 4ms (GtG90%) sometimes translates to 40ms completeness (GtG100%). It's not always the case, but this can happen very often with certain panels (at least for apples-vs-apples comparison, TN vs TN, IPS vs IPS, as the difference between GtG90% vs GtG100% is amplified on certain panels (dim colors on VA for example). Not sure of GtG 90% versus GtG 100%? See Pixel Response FAQ: GtG Versus MPRT. And yes, for both GtG and/or MPRT, the stuff below 10% and above 90% is still human visible. These are just electronic measurement cutoff points.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
Is response time the most important thing of monitors?
Depends. And depends on what you need it to do. Millisecond lag? Millisecond GtG? Milliseconds MPRT? Win games? See clearer? Better motion? Less ghosting? Etc etc. The millisecond doesn't matter sometimes but matters at other times.

They are still able to become human visible to many who have the ability to see ghosting/corona artifacts. While not everyone sees the same, it is undeniable that milliseconds have gained amplified visibility due to the Vicious Cycle Effect (see section "Vicious Cycle Effect" in the 1000 Hz Journey Article with scientific animations and demos).

Higher resolutions, higher refresh rates, bigger panel sizes, fast motions, all amplify visibility of the millisecond in the GtG context and the MPRT contexts.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
For me most important is motion blur. Because I play dynamic games, when enemies are running, jumping behind the wall etc
If you use strobed modes, then get familiar with how MPRT 0.25ms vs MPRT 0.5ms vs MPRT 1.0ms actually becomes human-visible for fine-text during fps=Hz ultraspeed motion. At 4000 pixels/second, 0.25ms equals 1 pixel, 0.5ms equals 2 pixels, 1ms equals 4 pixels.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
Also for me response time is marketing, and everything bellow 5ms is perfect for fast shooters.The most important is the blurry and motion clarity, which is pretty fine on the asus with 280Hz, thats why 240hz ips panels are nice for gaming, compare to 144hz IPS - these can be blurry compare to 144hz TN.
Higher refresh rates reduce the MPRT without needing strobing, because MPRT is proportional to pixel visibility time, which naturally means:
MPRT of nonstrobed = length of refresh cycle
MPRT of strobed = length of strobe pulse

So people who hate strobing, but wants less motion blur (lower MPRT)
240Hz = 1/240sec MPRT(100%) excluding bottlenecks from GtG
280Hz = 1/280sec MPRT(100%) excluding bottlenecks from GtG

At these refresh rate stratospheres, it's harder to reduce motion blur with small Hz jumps. You need to jump up Hz a lot more to see human-visible benefits. That's why Blur Busters is an advocate of the geometric curve, 60Hz -> 120Hz -> 240Hz -> 480Hz -> 960Hz.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
240hz IPS vs 144hz TN is pretty similar with motion blur.
That can happen when GtG adds to the MPRT.

When adjusting overdrive to something that is balanced (no objectionable overshoot artifact).
1/240sec + 5ms no-overshoot GtG = about 9ms of combined smear (persistence blurring + GtG ghosting combined)
1/144sec + 3ms no-overshoot GtG = about 10ms of combined smear (persistence blurring + GtG ghosting combined)
So it's true that slow 240Hz can match a fast 144Hz. I've seen that happen.

This is an ultra-simplistic point of view, but this is exactly why we don't like small refresh rate jumps, e.g. 144Hz vs 165Hz -- that difference is less visible than 240Hz vs 360Hz to my eyes! (I've seen the 360Hz TN monitor, by the way -- no IPS can beat that -- and I'm also reminding RLSContender to respect TN too).

Also, there's been some easter egg tweaks that's been happening. ViewSonic XG270 running at 224Hz (at max overdrive, which doesn't overshoot visibly at 224Hz) actually looks clearer than 240Hz, and competitive with many 240Hz TN panels. More noticeable difference versus 144Hz, because the optimized non-overshoot GtG is much faster at 224Hz than at 240Hz. So there are additional surprising variables too, since GtG are simply metaphorical soccer balls which occasionally explains why GtG sometimes speeds up with certain sweet-spot refresh rates slightly below max-Hz -- trying to kick pixels more frequently (i.e. higher Hz) sometimes creates slower kicks for them (i.e. slower GtG) because the electronics doesn't have as much time to give the pixel a powerful running-start voltage "kick" per pixel in refreshing the pixel.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
240hz TN has better motion blur. than 240hz ips..
I agree for best TN panels.

That said....those older 240Hz TN monitors like the first 240Hz monitors from from 2016 -- such as the first AOC AF251FZ had a bit more blur than 1ms IPS. It was pretty impressive how 240Hz TN can vary a bit over 2016 through 2020. I expect XL2546S to be rather good, since it's non overdriven GtG will probably be even faster -- it's quite useful.

Here's an example of how much it can vary -- TFTCentral example

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forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
but you can get used to this, because its not that much blurry on 240hz ips, that you can't see the parts enemy (head, eyes, etc).
240Hz IPS is quite good, when well adjusted. Definitely better than the worst TNs.

The venn diagram is now overlapping these days. The best TN can outperform the best IPS but the best 240Hz IPS now outperforms the worst 240Hz TN.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
If you like clear visibility, best motion blur you can turn ELMB and you will be for sure happy, but imo 240hz is enough, I play at 280hz (lesss lagier and much clear visibility) and im smashing every server, and being top1 in Cod Mw with top kills and score.
Indeed, 240Hz vs 280Hz may be subtle but it's not zero. I saw a more noticable difference for 240Hz vs 360Hz so I am looking forward to 360Hz. I prefer at least 1.5x jumps in refresh rates, preferably 2x, but it's hard to push the envelope faster at these stratospheres in the refresh race to retina refresh rates.
forii wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 13:07
Ah and also asus has very good input lag. the lowest of all monitors
It's impressive how low lag many of the 240Hz+ 1ms IPS panels are now. I think esports are about to discover them too. TN 360Hz will probably put another challenge though.
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Re: 04/18/2020. The IPS 240hz monitor tier list.(I've measured/tried the all) and my honest explanation why.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Apr 2020, 20:32

jnashville wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 20:24
Feedback i gotten basically the same. 60hz to 144hz refresh rate or higher is definitely noticeable. 4ms and 1ms response time is impossible to notice on the naked eye.
False. Those people don't know what they're talking about. ;)

Please tell those people about Pixel Response FAQ: GtG Versus MPRT. They will realize they are wrong -- and that the millisecond is simpler than expected -- and it's dangerous to make assumptions about the humble millisecond. Even many display engineers make the mistake.

On behalf of Blur Busters, I have even visited some manufacturers to show TestUFO PowerPoint training sessions (paid!) to school them about the millisecond. I have already flown across both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans last year (Before the COVID-19 crisis) already for what are essentially private TestUFO training classes to an audience that included managers and engineers. Demonstrated with high speed cameras, 240Hz demos, strobed demos, MPRT demos, GtG demos, all the tools of the trade. It's one of things I do now, services.blurbusters.com.

Also see my above post.
-- Yes, it is true 1ms vs 2ms GtG doesn't beocome visible during 60Hz since the 16.7ms of persistence of non-strobed 60Hz.
-- But at 240Hz, 1ms vs 2ms is a full one-quarter of a refresh cycle!

Does it matter? Maybe. Maybe not. But those milliseconds ARE human visible if your vision allows you to see ghosting/coronas

Also, have you seen my famous article, Blur Busters Law: The Amazing Journey To Future 1000 Hz Displays including it scienctific citations?

It's a great amazing read! Has already dropped a few jaws. It's also why ASUS now has a roadmap to 1000Hz monitors, as mentioned in many media (including PC Magazine).

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In the above image, 1ms translates to 1 pixel of motion artifact per 1000 pixels/second motion. They are still able to become human visible to many who have the ability to see ghosting/corona/motionblur artifacts. And GtG + MPRT does layer into one mess of a smear (e.g. combined MPRT blur + addition of ghosting/coronas) -- you see all of that in the above animated PNG of all the various overdrive settings. (credit to Jorim here, who did the above pursuit using a Samsung Galaxy in a smartphone holder in sliding-camera-rail following the pursuit camera instructions).

If you can see a human-visible difference in TestUFO between ULMB ON/OFF, then you're seeing milliseconds already.

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Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
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