Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

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RLCScontender
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by RLCScontender » 15 May 2020, 17:02

Didnt know u can get a 10 bit color depth signal at 144hz on the 280hz IPS asus..

I can get a 10 bit signal at 240hz on the MSI, the color gradient and color band dithering is on point.

How is the input lag when using elmb sync at high refresh? I always turned it off unless im going against a TN user at 280hz. The input lag is something i have to deal with when turning it on. And yes, i play a dexterity heavy.competitive game(rocket league), that extra.addes 1-2ms input lag can be bothersome to some ppl if they havn't adjusted to it.

axaro1
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by axaro1 » 15 May 2020, 17:35

RLCScontender wrote:
15 May 2020, 17:02
Didnt know u can get a 10 bit color depth signal at 144hz on the 280hz IPS asus..

I can get a 10 bit signal at 240hz on the MSI, the color gradient and color band dithering is on point.
Having to switch to 144hz to have access to 10bit is a little bit annoying, I wish it was there at 240hz like on the MSI.
Thank god it's not too saturated, with the Asus' .icm profile the colors are very accurate and natural
RLCScontender wrote:
15 May 2020, 17:02
How is the input lag when using elmb sync at high refresh? I always turned it off unless im going against a TN user at 280hz. The input lag is something i have to deal with when turning it on. And yes, i play a dexterity heavy.competitive game(rocket league), that extra.addes 1-2ms input lag can be bothersome to some ppl if they havn't adjusted to it.
I didn't notice any difference in input lag, especially with the fps capped at 277, it should be a +1.1ms strobe before I can see a new frame at 280hz and +1.3ms at 240hz, there's no vsync penalty or unsynced induced stuttering (especially since I can't always output 277fps with a 3600 (even tho I get a massive improvement with overclocked 3733mhz ram with tightened timings), I stay in the 240-277 range, averaging 250fps during fights and 277 without much going on, fps fluctuations are clean with ELMB-sync.

I'm generally very sensible to input lag, I reached semi-professional ranks in Overwatch(3.8k sr) so I know how much input lag can affect aim and reaction time, I didn't notice any difference compared to my XG2402 in terms of response time but as I said I don't have any 240hz TN I can use to compare.

Before extending the range to 280hz with CRU(it was stuck at 48-240hz), strobing with ELMB-Sync at 280hz was just strobing with no freesync (since it was out of range, confirmed by the fps counter not fluctuating in the OSD) which paired with high brightness due to strobing inexperience caused me an annoying headache.
After extending the range and lowering the brightness I noticed massive improvements, like night and day, I'm using RTSS to cap the framerate and I'm having a great time, especially in Rainbow six where the shaking caused by the recoil is completely eliminated, this makes aiming extremely easy, I can't set the refresh rate to 280hz in this game even tho I can reach it (Thanks Vulkan API :) ) so I'm stuck playing r6s at 240hz, I'm thinking about tweaking the config file and set it to "Read Only" since it reverts to 240hz after selecting 280hz.
VG259QM 1080p 280hz IPS | XG2402 1080p 144hz TN | LS24F350 1080p 72hz LPS|R5 3600 4.4ghz 1.21V | 3733mhz Hynix C-Die [CJR] 16-19-20-36-56| 5700XT Gaming OC 2064mhz 1112mv

bigni
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by bigni » 16 May 2020, 08:27

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
13 May 2020, 12:16
bigni wrote:
13 May 2020, 12:06
What's the lowest refresh rate for strobing on this (these) monitors?
Looking for 60hz strobing since I'm good at that
Unfortunately, manufacturers have artificially locked most models from being able to do 60Hz strobing.

See Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270.

Theoretically, it is only a minor firmware change in any monitor to support 60Hz single-strobe.

If you want to buy something with 60Hz single-strobe today, you have very few options such as the BenQ XL2411P (which supports Blur Busters Strobe Utility).

60Hz single-strobe is more common in some TVs due to gaming consoles. For televisions, some do support. You can get a Sony HDTV with "Motionflow Impulse", LG OLED TV with "BFI". RTINGS can tell you which television models support 60Hz single-strobe. Try to stick to 60fps console titles to avoid the 30fps duplicate image effect (like CRT 30fps at 60Hz).
Thanks appreciate it

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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 16 May 2020, 11:55

axaro1 wrote:
15 May 2020, 17:35
I can't set the refresh rate to 280hz in this game even tho I can reach it (Thanks Vulkan API :) ) so I'm stuck playing r6s at 240hz, I'm thinking about tweaking the config file and set it to "Read Only" since it reverts to 240hz after selecting 280hz.
For stubborn games I use the 1078p or 1079p trick.

Create a custom resolution that is 1920x1078 that ONLY has the refresh rate you want. The game's forced to use only that Hz when using that resolution.

It's an old trick. As early as 2012-2013, some LightBoost users did that to create a 120Hz-only LightBoost mode on 144Hz monitors, especially in the days before ToastyX Strobelight was invented. This easy hack still works today on most monitors.

However, there may be some games that think monitors above 240Hz doens't exist. That would be bad programming practice.
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RLCScontender
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by RLCScontender » 16 May 2020, 13:23

axaro, it's actually closer to +8 to 10ms(minus the small input lag reduction of going up +40hz) input lag because adaptive sync AND backlight strobing is on at the same time.

i had to use bluetooth(insteaD OF WIRED) on my ps4 controller to avoid a big latency hit if i used ELMB-SYNC. If however you don't notice much changes in input lag, more power to ya. But for me, i do notice it and a dexterity and timing heavy game like rocket league, that 8-10ms added input lag will determine if i get a 65 MPH power shot on target or a 22mph soft hit resulting in the opponent getting a free goal on my falling recovery.

if however u aren't able to notice it, more power to ya. For me, i do notice it unfortunately since the game i play requires a lot of precision and dexterity.

axaro1
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by axaro1 » 16 May 2020, 17:38

RLCScontender wrote:
16 May 2020, 13:23
axaro, it's actually closer to +8 to 10ms(minus the small input lag reduction of going up +40hz) input lag because adaptive sync AND backlight strobing is on at the same time.

i had to use bluetooth(insteaD OF WIRED) on my ps4 controller to avoid a big latency hit if i used ELMB-SYNC. If however you don't notice much changes in input lag, more power to ya. But for me, i do notice it and a dexterity and timing heavy game like rocket league, that 8-10ms added input lag will determine if i get a 65 MPH power shot on target or a 22mph soft hit resulting in the opponent getting a free goal on my falling recovery.

if however u aren't able to notice it, more power to ya. For me, i do notice it unfortunately since the game i play requires a lot of precision and dexterity.
+8/10ms? where are you getting these numbers from? Am I missing something?
Enabling VRR generally cause a +0.1/0.2ms increase in input lag (probably due to increased signal processing), capping the framerate is actually the best way to reduce input lag unless you can consistently output 280+fps.

If you are considering a ps4 which has a 60hz output we both know that low hz input lag is higher, but I didn't buy a 280hz to plug a console (and I don't see the point of 60hz strobing if the OD is stuck at 80), couldn't you notice the overshoot at 60hz from ELMB-Sync? It should be unusable sub 144hz (I tested it on Overwatch at 60hz and it's bad, it starts to be good at 180+fps, the sweet spot is 200-280fps, with just 1.8% overshoot at 200hz with OD80 if the same tests from the VG279QM apply to the 24.5")

Sorry but I can't notice a speculated "8/10ms" difference, in theory the penalty should be VRR penalty + Strobing at the beginning of each refresh, which translates to 0.1/0.2 + 1.1 = +1.2/1.3ms with Asus' ELMB(not sync)

With ELMB-Sync's devil horn implementation the strobe duration is a little bit longer, 2.5ms at 240hz and 2ms at 280hz(If my calculations about ELMB-Sync are correct there's a 56% duty cycle at 280hz and 60% at 240hz)

This means two things:
- The strobing cycle is 0.9ms longer at 280hz and +1.1ms longer at 240hz than Asus's standard strobing (Elmb duty cycle is basically ​1⁄4 of a refresh, ELMB-Sync is around ½ of a refresh)
- The longer duty cycle further eliminates any form of crosstalk, I honestly can't see any crosstalk even with a dark background around the moving frogs/Ufos.

So the question when using ELMB-Sync is: would you trade half of a 4.16ms refresh for perfect strobing?

I don't notice any crosstalk, even my 480fps camera test can't detect any crosstalk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1uvrRqvJHs), fluctuating fps are imperceptible during strobing and there aren't any microstutterings (I followed Chief's tips on how to prevent any form of microstuttering during ELMB)

You can argue that the "devil's horn" pulse method is inefficient, but there isn't a single game where I would disable ELMB-Sync as long as I can consistently output 180+ fps.

Edit: I just read "Strobe Crosstalk: Blur Reduction Double-Images", it confirms that Strobe duty cycle (flash length) also plays a role., confirming my hypotesis about Elmb-Sync having less crosstalk than ELMB due to an longer strobe duty cycle.
VG259QM 1080p 280hz IPS | XG2402 1080p 144hz TN | LS24F350 1080p 72hz LPS|R5 3600 4.4ghz 1.21V | 3733mhz Hynix C-Die [CJR] 16-19-20-36-56| 5700XT Gaming OC 2064mhz 1112mv

RLCScontender
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by RLCScontender » 16 May 2020, 18:56

BFI(strobing) jumps to +9ms input lag on the MSI

I havnt had the asus in a while but elmb sync had noticeable input Lag when i tried it.

Also u dont benefit from very high FPS(thus reduced input lag), if u intend to use elmb sync since u have to cap the fps to 277

Dirty Scrubz
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by Dirty Scrubz » 17 May 2020, 02:40

RLCScontender wrote:
16 May 2020, 18:56
BFI(strobing) jumps to +9ms input lag on the MSI

I havnt had the asus in a while but elmb sync had noticeable input Lag when i tried it.

Also u dont benefit from very high FPS(thus reduced input lag), if u intend to use elmb sync since u have to cap the fps to 277
9 ms sounds unreasonably high even for IPS. Where did you get that number?

RLCScontender
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by RLCScontender » 17 May 2020, 03:10

Dirty Scrubz wrote:
17 May 2020, 02:40
RLCScontender wrote:
16 May 2020, 18:56
BFI(strobing) jumps to +9ms input lag on the MSI

I havnt had the asus in a while but elmb sync had noticeable input Lag when i tried it.

Also u dont benefit from very high FPS(thus reduced input lag), if u intend to use elmb sync since u have to cap the fps to 277
9 ms sounds unreasonably high even for IPS. Where did you get that number?

I've soldered my own tool that connects to both my PC and oscilloscope(it measures response time and input delay) to graph out the display lag over a specific sample size within a chart. My cust om made tool(diode+transistor+Mboard+mVTuner+etc) can measure up to 0.1ms accuracy and i did it over a larger sample size because there are outliers but it's generally will jump from 2.0ms of input lag to 9ms input lag if i turn on BFi on the MSI. Much worse on the VG27qm, from my recollection it jupms from 2.4ms(0.4 processing delay and 2ms refresh rate) input delay to 10-11ms since ELMB-SYNC allow you to turn on both at the esame time.

did you seriuosly think elmb-sync was free? It's a trade off and sometimes it's worth it especially if you're going against TN who can't reach 280hz much less use adaptive sync and BFi at the same time.

with BFI, the 2ms delay from the monitor plus an additional 6-7ms of input lag if backlight strobing is on. And yes, it's noticeable to me, and the only way for me to tolerate it is to use bluetooth on my ps4 controller to avoid that latency hit.

I only strobe to break a bad losing streak or to view the game from another perspective. I don't do it all the time but when I do use it, i usually win majority of my games since the trade off of additional input lag is excellent motion clarity.

BFI is never free, you have to give up something to use it. ELMB-SYNC is no exception

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jiexiong2008
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Re: Asus VG279QM Youtube Review by Hardware Unboxed

Post by jiexiong2008 » 18 May 2020, 22:17

axaro1 wrote:
15 May 2020, 08:32
Update on the VG259QM, if you have an Amd card you need to manually extend the Freesync range with CRU.
The stock range is 48-240, I wasn't understanding why the OSD fps counter was not fluctuating with lower fps when overclocked to 270/280hz while it was working properly at 240hz.

This is my first time strobing and I'm very impressed, increasing the ingame contrast and brightness get rids of the downsides of BFI, the crosshair in the OSD (the red and green dot) are actually usable and perfect for hitscans.

I honestly can't tell a difference in motion quality compared to my XG2402 (144hz TN), I didn't really test this monitor with strobing off since it's just too good with Elmb-Sync that I don't see the point of switching off unless I stop playing games.

So far I tried League of Legends (BFI is very good when moving around with the camera), R6S and Overwatch.
So far so good.

I can provide more tests, I can't use ufotest because I'm having stuttering with both Firefox and Chrome (I even tried uninstalling and re-installing the browser).

Edit: I tested color banding with both 280/240hz 8bit and 144hz 10bit, color banding completely disappear at 144hz, it's slightly more visibile at 240/280hz

It's finally dark so I tested for backlight bleeding and there's absolutely no backlight bleeding, I've never had an IPS before but I literally don't see any glowing/brigh part on the LCD when turned to black with max brightness (lucky panel?).
I noticed some eye strains/headache after using strobing for some consecutive hours, I tried lowering the brightness after taking a pause and it was much better for my eyes (I switched from brightness at 90 to 45 and lowered the ingame brightness)
Hi, thank you for sharing. I am a league player too and ordered same monitor with amd card. Will the BFI increases input lag obvisouly from your feeling?
Also, if you turn freesync off and set refresh rate to 280hz, will you notice tearing when you have much lower fps(~140fps for example)? Since league is a poor optimized game and can have fps drop as game proceeds.
How about ghosting when you have fixed refresh rate. Will it be the same no matter what fps you are getting?
Sorry for so many questions!

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