Motion smoothness: LCD vs CRT

[Inco^]

Hello,

I try to play competively some FPS game (MoH:AA). Same kind of game as counter strike (cs1.6, cs:go, etc) if you like.

Let's say I meet 2 opponents in my field of view and I need to take them down before they do. One opponent is on the very left, the other on the very right. I have to move very quickly and very precisely on these moving targets. My question is: which monitor is the best tool to help me do that?

Ten years ago I was playing with a CRT monitor with 1600x1200@100Hz. Nowadays I am playing with a LCD TN monitor with 2560x1440@240Hz.

My feeling is that 100 Hz with CRT and 100 Hz with LCD are two very different things. I wonder if my 100 Hz CRT was not better than my 240 Hz LCD to help me kill the moving targets.

I feel like there is more motion blur with my LCD, such that it is harder to hit moving targets.

But I also know that my eyes get acustomed to a higher refresh rate and become more sensitive and can not stand going back to previous lower refresh rate. I don't have my CRT anymore so I cannot test and see the difference.

1) Do you guys agree that 100 Hz with CRT is better than 100 Hz with LCD? (as a better tool to help me kill these 2 opponents)
2) If so, 240 Hz with LCD is similar to which refresh rate with a CRT, would you say ?

Thanks,
Inco

[rasmas]

I'm not the best to answer, but i can give you a fast answer if it helps while waiting better answers :

"1) Do you guys agree that 100 Hz with CRT is better than 100 Hz with LCD? (as a better tool to help me kill these 2 opponents)"
Yes, CRTs have better motion clarity than any LCD. The website and the forums pretty much talk about trying to get the CRT motion clarity that normally cannot be gotten on a LCD. I recommend to check the Chief articles of the website and follow a bit the forums (i've done and i'm still confused , but it helps to start understanding how LCDs work and, despite their advantages, CRTs are clearer). The main way to achieve that CRT motion quality is by "strobing" or "black frame insertion", makes the screen flicker by adding black frames between actual frames, and that helps to improve motion clarity.

"2) If so, 240 Hz with LCD is similar to which refresh rate with a CRT, would you say ?"
Apparently yes (remember, i cannot give good answers ), at 240Hz it is starting to have good motion clarity without the need of that "strobing" or "black frame insertion", as far as you can have stable 240FPS in games. Also these monitors ususally have "strobing" features, that seem to work better at 120Hz+120FPS . Seems that the way to get perfect motion clarity without strobing would be once we can get 1000Hz+1000FPS, but won't be anytime soon .


Well, not the best of the answers, but hope they can be an start .

[Inco^]

Thanks for your answer!

My second question 2) was: what would be the CRT refresh rate equivalent to an LCD refresh rate of 240 Hz?

Or more generally, what would be a table of equivalence between the two:
examples of possible equivalence tables:

LCD (Hz) | CRT (Hz)
240 | 85
144 | 75
120 | 72

or

LCD (Hz) | CRT (Hz)
240 | 120
144 | 85
120 | 80

All this as a rule of thumb or empiric rule rather than a theoretical relationship.

[rasmas]

Oh sorry, didn't understand it correctly.

Again, i'm not the best to answer, but, from what i've read (and worse, from what i have understood ), there is no an equivalence like that, and to achieve CRT motion clarity the best (nowdays) way is to buy a 240Hz monitor, and set strobing mode at 120Hz (can't really tell how xD). The 240Hz monitor has better strobing results than a 144Hz monitor, both strobing at 120Hz.

Also, at 240Hz and 240 Fps, you'll get good enough motion clarity on shooters, to not need to worry much about strobing if you don't want it.


I must say i don't have any of these monitors, so i better stop answering just i case i confuse you more than help , but as a global way to understand it, can serve as a start .

Hopefully Chief comes later and explain it better .

[AddictFPS]

I allways played FPS games with 21" CRT, 2048x1536@80 1600x1200@100 1280x960@125, and continue doing it with my last CRT in working state thanks to lagless (microseconds) DisplayPort to VGA adapter Sunix DPU3000.

I think that currently none 100Hz LCD (including 240Hz set to 100 maintaining the native fast scanout) can equal old 100Hz CRT "fast feel". But is the way to go, due that there not are CRT's in shops, GameOver One shame kill all CRT manufacturing, seeing that they have some advantages Vs LCD for some tasks. I would have preferred CRT's in shops until new techs can beat it in all aspects

Whit strobing, LCD improve motion clarity, but add inputlag ! and crosstalk appears due to slow LCD response time. Next generation LCD at 360Hz sure improve to much this issues, and some frequencies in the 80-125Hz range maybe 100% free. CRT is impulse display, and LCD is sample and hold. With sample and hold and slow response time, no way to reach CRT performance.

CRT has lower input lag due to direct analogic signal GPU PixelClock to monitor Beam Scanout, not signal processing, and "tricks" like RTSS Scanline Sync (VSync Low Lag trick) can also be applied to CRT. But high end gaming LCD as a very good performance in this aspect, is not a issue, just a small difference, and improving constantly.

CRT has better response time, microseconds range ! except when go from light colors to very dark or black, due to long phosphor decay time, where the decay time depend of phosphor type. Is the weak point of CRT about motion quality. This is the reason that explain why some CRT 60Hz flicker more than others, lower decay time, more flicker, and more frecuency is needed to compensate. There are electron cannon shooting to RGB phosphor subpixels, is very fast, almost instant ! Can't be compared with current LCD chemical reactions, where GtG 100% transition range for TN is betwen 0,5ms minimun and 20ms maximun.

But in future this can change with Blue Phase LCD viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6953
MicroLED is also amazing in response time, some sources talk nanosecond range

I can't make any serious frecuency equivalence CRT Vs Strobed-LCD about motion quality. Is different feel, at same frecuency CRT always has advantage -> Less lag, no crosstalk, less flicker, no brightness loss.

CRT now is only for some motion quality fanatics I realy not recommend buy used CRT's, are very old, big, heavy, dirty, very used so no longer have the quality of when they were new, no waranty, need adapter beyond GTX980Ti, just forget it. No CRT in shops, LCD win the match, the opponent dissappears buy Viewsonic XG270 or BenQ XL2746S and be happy.

[Inco^]

Thanks for your answer.

I have Lenovo Legion Y27gq playing with 2560x1440@240Hz but I'm not exactly happy regarding motion blur. I also played mainly 1600x1200@100Hz and sometimes 1280x960@125Hz with an IBM ThinkVision C220p ten years ago (130kHz horizontal frequency).

I've found some sellers for Iiyama Vision Master Pro 512, LaCie Electron 22blue IV, MITSUBISHI 2070SB which are 140kHz horizontal frequency and Iiyama Vision Master Pro 514 which is 142kHz horizontal frequency (most sellers claim that their monitor is in good condition).
I was also waiting for the ASUS ROG @360Hz but problem is that the framerate might not always follow.

Regarding comparison between CRT and LCD, I've seen that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8BVTHxc4LM&t=326s and that https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digi ... t-monitors

For how long have you been using your last CRT? My IBM ThinkVision C220p lasted about 4 years (apparently, it had not been used before me).

Regarding the vSync low lag trick, are you referring to having the refresh rate slightly higher than the framerate? I was using that with my CRT, capping at 100 fps and adjusting 100.1 Hz with Powerstrip software.

<< I realy not recommend buy used CRT's, are very old, big, heavy, dirty, very used so no longer have the quality of when they were new, no waranty, need adapter beyond GTX980Ti, just forget it. >>
=> big/heavy/dirty don't really matter to me because they don't affect game perfromance and buying an adapter is not going to stop me. Regarding the decay of their quality: I would imagine that motion blur is not something that would increase because the monitor gets old, is it?

[AddictFPS]

I start use my last alive 21" CRT 160Hz 130KHz this year, i bought it new in 2006 after CRT dissappears from shops, stored with care until now.

RTSS Scanline Sync is more advanced than this powerstrip settings. You can see detailed info on this forum.

CRT Motion Blur not degrade with time, at least i haven't noticed, for instance i've used one 21" CRT dururing 6 years, and the same lightspeed fast feel from start until break. The issue is that progresively focus is more blurred, electronic components degradement, with OSD can be compensate, but at end the component degrades more, dead, and monitor bricks.

If is only one capacitor, or power supply, easy fix by qualified technician. If for instance vertical controller dead, no replacements currently. I follow the HardForum leyend topic about Sony FW900 24" CRT owners, people repair monitor if find replacements, but some components can't be replaced, are old analogic control components and each CRT model has especific components. FlyBack is also another replace component unreachable today.