60hz Single Strobing again...

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60hz Single Strobing again...

Post by Falkentyne » 26 Jul 2020, 14:05

I decided to make a post on Benq's reddit about this issue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BenQ/comments/ ... _for_60hz/

Not expecting results, but hey...eventually, someone, somewhere has to take notice. Someone with the power to at least have it as a toggleable *option* on current XL/S-series monitors (with a firmware update) and future monitors.

Plus this would bridge the gap between Blur reduction and freesync/adaptive sync, making blur reduction and adaptive sync finally achievable at the exact same time (with all the flicker and crosstalk warnings you have to accept) which AGAIN would be optional!.

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Re: 60hz Single Strobing again...

Post by 3dfan » 29 Jul 2020, 11:35

man, with respect, but i believe you are wasting your time, and this is sadly a dead request, i have been waiting for this as well for years, being a current crt user in which i have been using 60hz for desktop and for many games for over 20 years and this has been one of the main reasons, among many others, that i have been refusing to "upgrade" to modern monitors.

but after a lot of begging about this to manufacturers, for me is clear that those companies simply does not care about making their customer happy by adding 60hz single strobe, they just care about making their money fooling users about their monitor "greatness" but cheating, hiding, underestimating their many flaws agains crts in order to get their money / commissions and the lack of 60hz single strobe will not prevent that for them.

its very dissapointing that many users asking for 60hz single strobe that even already bought their monitors are being miserably ignored even if it as simple as just adding one-line code fix. to enable 60hz single strobe and just adding something as simple as a warning message and ask for user input prompt comfirmation via osd buttons to ensure user is warned and is not enabling it by accident, but instead, we are just being suggested to use a limited software bfi :roll:

the only way i see 60hz single strobe happening is to refuse to buy those companies monitors unless they add the option, so that companies would see their profit threatened, but this simply not gonna happen, the vast mayority of video gamers in the world buying monitors does not even care about motion clarity at all, and the few ones caring, very few care about 60hz crt like motion clarity.

i personaly made my own conclusion about this after so long time of waiting, and the best thing for me to do is to stick to crt monitors until i stop gaming or caring about motion clarity, (or monitor dies). fortunately, there are god dac adapters with excelent latency to hook crts to modern video cards and consoles.

but even if we finally see 60hz single strobe on modern monitors, those still have too many side effects tradeoff flaws when handling motion clarity agains crts so my reasons to stick to crt goes further than just the lack of 60hz single strobe:

-60hz on crt monitors (they also support 50hz) are confirmed to be less agresive flicker than modern strobed based ones on same frecuency, specialy lower ones, so its 60hz usage goes further than just emulator or consoles, even modern games on crt 60hz are a visual pleasure, no notable flicker for me, with much lower computer performance (gpu-cpu) needed.

-crt have much better brightness than most modern monitors in their strobed crt motion quality "ultra" mode, eg: xg270 has a confirmed low brightness level of 68cd/m². which is boringly dim to my likes, me being used to superior vivid crt brightness levels, other modes than "ultra" with better brigtness also degrade motion clarity quality, not being in the crt motion clarity quality realm anymore. so crt have considerable higher levels than that around 115 cd/m²

-crt are crosstalk free at any refresh, any resolution being used

-crt are light glow light bleed free, have much better blacks than modern, non (but very close) oled displays (also less prone to burn in than oleds)

-crts have excelent viewing angles, colors, latency at anyy refrehs, resolution.

so even if a modern monitor like the xg270 (being marketed as "superior to crt") would allow 60hz single strobe, i cannot image such a poor experience, being forced to use a cave room to see whats on the screen on an already boring vividless dim screen and add the ips light glow, light bleed, attenuated in a dark room, plus the crosstalk fest making the situation even worse, (a monitor that is supposed to be considered one of the best ips at handling ips strobe crosstak issues, but however requieres a custom 119hz vertical refresh and hence constant absurd high 119 fps to reduce crosstalk and produce stutterless motion clarity) also if i am not wrong, its strobe mode also increases latency.

so, if it is the situation with a monitor like this "superior to crt" what could one expect from future monitors? its enough to me to conclude: no thanks even if they add 60hz single strobe.

i would like to recommend you to get a crt monitor instead, not with the intention to expect a profit at all to me, but to recommend a real quality 60hz compatible gaming monitor, and not necesary a professional one, since there are good dac adapters to hook them, eg: i currently use a fw900 hooked to 1080ti via sunix dpu3000 dac adapter and i play a lot of different games such emulator, fighting games, modern ones at 60hz as well and i honestly dont note input lag. also there is the scanline sync mixed with the the real flexibility of crts to use with lower refreshes, different custom resolutions without worring about image quality degradation due to not using native resolutions, that help to achieve constat refresh and framerate sync with much less cpu-gpu performance needed, with no tearline and excelent latency which make things laking in crts like gsync and freesync not really a necessity on crts.

but i am aware getting a crt monitor in good condition and good price is a very hard task, not to say impossible. :(
Last edited by 3dfan on 29 Jul 2020, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 60hz Single Strobing again...

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 29 Jul 2020, 12:45

3dfan wrote:
29 Jul 2020, 11:35
man, with respect, but i believe you are wasting your time
No need for these discouraging sentences. ;) Manufacturers read these forums.
3dfan wrote:
29 Jul 2020, 11:35
and this is sadly a dead request
No need for these discouraging sentences. ;) Manufacturers read these forums.
3dfan wrote:
29 Jul 2020, 11:35
man, with respect, but i believe you are wasting your time, and this is sadly a dead request, i have been waiting for this as well for years, being a current crt user in which i have been using 60hz for desktop and for many games for over 20 years and this has been one of the main reasons, among many others, that i have been refusing to "upgrade" to modern monitors.
I may have traction already, I am working behind the scenes, but remember it takes minimum 12-months for a monitor engineering cycle (the entire development life cycle from planning to sales on market)

Please continue to keep posting to this thread:
Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

The best practice I have been recommending internally to manufacturers is, that I claim the following:

1. Single strobe 60 Hz is not a step backwards.
It's a backwards compatibility benefit, for emulators, 60fps console games, and etc. Some manufactures (and GPU vendors) actually said that it was a step backwards, which is the wrong way to view this feature. It's a sideways feature, like an emulation of a 60 Hz CRT tube, for use cases that benefit from some display that mimics a 60Hz tube.

2. Several TV manufacturers such as Sony ("Motionflow Impulse") and LG ("Black Frame Insertion") has a single-strobe feature in their television sets.

3. Do not test 60Hz single-strobe with Windows Desktop in a monitor-testing office room. Test under actual user-intended uses.
60 Hz single-strobe is not used at Windows Desktop by most users who use such features. Test 60fps single-strobe with emulators and 60fps-locked games / console games in normal arcade-style conditions (like a MAME cabinet) or living room conditions (like console gaming). 60Hz flicker is often less intense in these environments. Yes, some users will use 60 Hz single strobe for Windows, but it's easier to convince via wider-market nostagilia/console use cases.

4. Test under realistic room conditions (ambient lighting, brightness, viewing distances)

5. It's a feature that can be turned on/off. Users aren't forced to 60Hz single strobe. It's just there if users want it.

6. Add an "Allow 60 Hz Strobe: ON/OFF" in an Advanced Settings menu on the OSD. Factory default OFF.
For all descriptions (onscreen or manual), add a disclaimer that 60 Hz single strobe flickers a lot, and "use at own risk". So that less experienced users don't turn it on and then complain. Users who actually are aware and understand this feature, will actively intentionally turn it on, while other users will just ignore this setting especially if they don't use or care about 60 Hz anyway.

I have also dangled actual financial discounts to manufacturers (for various Blur Busters consulting services) if they would add extra features to their strobe features, including 60Hz single strobe.

The way it works is that many manufactures have contracts that lock features very early. Bureaucratically, it is not very easily done as a retroactive upgrade, but corporate convincing is easiest when a manufacturer is beginning to plan a new monitor, and are napkin sketching the OSD. I am now finally getting some small movements, so expect some single-strobe features to arrive in 2021 and 2022 (maybe sooner). Alas, with 12-month monitor engineering cycles, and COVID delays, things are glacial.

But 60 Hz single strobe is coming to at least two vendors (not necessarily BenQ)....slowly. Probably not this year. But coming nontheless. I cannot say more due to NDAs but I can say this "in general".

Even if certain manufactures might not ever add the feature, other manufactures will. Continue to complain about manufacturers that don't, so other manufacturers notice and get convinced. I highly encourage users to continue posting messages & threads about this such as "I tried to play this emulator and I got double images, like this screenshot. And My OLED HDTV does it properly". Use cases & evidence is VERY helpful here. This forum is the very reason why I've got minor traction now. More angles the merrier!
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Re: 60hz Single Strobing again...

Post by elexor » 03 Aug 2020, 01:46

Thanks for fighting the good fight Chief!

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