Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Aug 2020, 23:06

We don't necessarily need to go in sync -- we just need to brute force our way. Much like retina refresh rates and retina resolutions.

High frequency harmonics is another way to eliminate visible mouse microstutters too -- for example, at 8000Hz, some beat frequencies are well beyond 100 where the microstutter simply blends to motion blur (blurry like a high-frequency guitar string, rather than vibrating like a low-frequency guitar string).

For those who don't understand the stutter=blur equivalence continuum, the stutter-blend-to-blur effect is seen during framerate ramping animation of VRR, www.testufo.com/vrr

Going to a mouse poll of 8000 Hz will more likely keep microstutter amplitude tiny & microstutter frequency sufficient high enough, that most "low" framerates/refreshrates won't show visible problems.

There are lots of weak links we'll need to whac-a-mole, including limited native CPI too (2000 DPI / CPI is not the final frontier either), especially as we simultaneously approach retina resolution + retina refresh rate (the vicious cycle effect).
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masneb
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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by masneb » 27 Aug 2020, 04:56

This is absolutely fantastic news and can't wait. More so I hope this becomes standard across the industry. 10k would be a better target, but even this is amazing.
PixelDuck87 wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 19:34
What's the reason going above 1000hz?
Granularity of input. Everyone should want both higher polling as well as higher DPI (putting aside erroneous input). Despite 400dpi being the 'norm', that's often because games do not allow enough places in order to fine tune high DPI, plus a lot of mice have horrible input artifacts beyond certain thresholds.

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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by PixelDuck87 » 27 Aug 2020, 11:31

masneb wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 04:56
This is absolutely fantastic news and can't wait. More so I hope this becomes standard across the industry. 10k would be a better target, but even this is amazing.
PixelDuck87 wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 19:34
What's the reason going above 1000hz?
Granularity of input. Everyone should want both higher polling as well as higher DPI (putting aside erroneous input). Despite 400dpi being the 'norm', that's often because games do not allow enough places in order to fine tune high DPI, plus a lot of mice have horrible input artifacts beyond certain thresholds.
I just can hardly believe it would make a noticeable difference. I personally can't tell difference between 500 and 1000mhz on 800dpi. Maybe it does feel better for some to have such high mouse hz rate...

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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by NDUS » 27 Aug 2020, 11:58

PixelDuck87 wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 11:31
I just can hardly believe it would make a noticeable difference. I personally can't tell difference between 500 and 1000mhz on 800dpi. Maybe it does feel better for some to have such high mouse hz rate...
The nature of the difference makes it difficult to detect.
If you miss because of a low polling rate - it will simply appear that you missed, most of the time. You won't recognize it as a miss arising from low polling granularity. But if you map out polling rates against ingame footage, you will see the difference:
Image

For perfect polling you would actually prefer to have two polling reports per pixel at the upper limit of human flicking speeds. Not even 8000hz is quite there, but it's vastly better than 1000hz.

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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by PixelDuck87 » 27 Aug 2020, 12:40

NDUS wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 11:58
PixelDuck87 wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 11:31
I just can hardly believe it would make a noticeable difference. I personally can't tell difference between 500 and 1000mhz on 800dpi. Maybe it does feel better for some to have such high mouse hz rate...
The nature of the difference makes it difficult to detect.
If you miss because of a low polling rate - it will simply appear that you missed, most of the time. You won't recognize it as a miss arising from low polling granularity. But if you map out polling rates against ingame footage, you will see the difference:
Image

For perfect polling you would actually prefer to have two polling reports per pixel at the upper limit of human flicking speeds. Not even 8000hz is quite there, but it's vastly better than 1000hz.
Alright so if we are talking about flicks you usualy flick from A to B (B being enemy head or whatever) So the only thing you should care about is the final destination of a flick (B). How does 8000mz poling rate help you with that exactly? (Sorry if i'm being super supid here..)

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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Aug 2020, 12:40

PixelDuck87 wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 11:31
I just can hardly believe it would make a noticeable difference. I personally can't tell difference between 500 and 1000mhz on 800dpi. Maybe it does feel better for some to have such high mouse hz rate...
You probably won't see it at 1080p 144Hz at lower frame rates (especially with strobing=OFF).

But....change the variables.

You don't feel the 8000 Hz directly, but as resolutions go up, motion clarity gets clearer, and display refresh rates go up, the previously-hidden microstutter weak links become visible again as explained in Vicious Cycle Effect.

It's like how you turn on strobing (ELMB / ULMB / DyAc) and things look more stuttery/jittery during framerate-unsynchronized situations. That's because the lack of motion blur reveals stutters normally hidden by display motion blur.

Enough weak links layers get peeled, the mouse microstutters become visible again. 1000Hz just isn't enough, and 800cpi just isn't enough, when dealing with prototype 4K 480Hz displays, thanks to the Vicious Cycle Effect.

The relative stutter amplitude variances get worse when two frequencies approach each other. 480Hz refresh rate and 1000Hz mouse poll rate has bigger stutter percentage volatility than 120Hz refresh rate versus 1000Hz mouse poll rate. It's same for audio, audio beat frequencies sound more visible if the two Hz are closer together -- e.g. two tones (e.g. 1000Hz and 1010Hz will have a noticeable 10Hz beat frequency).

Likewise, framerate-vs-pollrate mechanics. 50fps at mouse 500Hz-vs-1000Hz pollrate will be probably unnoticeable, while 300fps for 500Hz-vs-1000Hz poll rate starts to become way more noticeable provided the refresh rate and motion clarity is sufficiently high enough. And it becomes progressively even more noticeable if you used strobed ultra high-resolution / refresh rate, when the motionspeeds (in pixel per frame) and stutter amplitudes (distance of stutter jump variances) exceed the motion blurwidths (thickness of motion blurring).

You need to Hz geometrically (whether refresh rate, poll rate, frame rate) and native dpi geometrically to feel the difference. Adjacent settings won't always feel difference (ala 144Hz-vs-165Hz, or 240Hz-vs-280Hz). You need things 240Hz-vs-480Hz like 1000Hz-vs-4000Hz to punch the diminishing curve of returns.

It is important for scientists/researchers to not neglect the Vicious Cycle Effect, it pushes things above the noise floors / creates undersampling effects instead of oversampling effects (nyquist factors). This is a problem as monitor refresh rates keep going up, sizes/FOV keep going up (especially VR), and resolutions keep going up, and motion blur keeps going down!

This is why 1000Hz display refresh rates are also beneficial, see Blur Busters Law: The Amazing Journey To Future 1000 Hz Displays.
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NDUS
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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by NDUS » 27 Aug 2020, 12:48

PixelDuck87 wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 12:40
Alright so if we are talking about flicks you usualy flick from A to B (B being enemy head or whatever) So the only thing you should care about is the final destination of a flick (B). How does 8000mz poling rate help you with that exactly? (Sorry if i'm being super supid here..)
Because polling doesn't just influence granularity when you move the cursor, it also influences when you stop it. Also, one doesn't always fire perfectly at the end of flicks, but sometimes in the middle. Frame-advance many of the flicks in this video (,. are the youtube hotkeys for frame-advance) and you'll see what I mean

You're envisioning a scenario where you flick from A to B, fully rest the crosshair on B and fire. In reality the sequence is different

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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Aug 2020, 15:22

I touch some of this briefly in the The Amazing Human Visible Feats Of The Millisecond.

Sometimes the millisecond doesn't matter (big whoop) while other times it makes a massive difference (holy cow). It depends on the variables & the context.

Remember the olden days when people laughed about going beyond ~60Hz-85Hz? We know better now. Or even humans can't tell 30fps versus 60fps

There are multiple effects of pollrate here, some visible, some not visible but affects scoring ("I seem to be missing more of my shots") effects.

1. Microstutter harmonics of pollrate versus Hz (low Hz microstutter = extra jitter, while high-Hz microstutter = extra blur)
2. Microstutter harmonics of pollrate versus fps (low Hz microstutter = extra jitter, while high-Hz microstutter = extra blur)
3. Stroboscopic stepping effect when pollrate is below fps & Hz
4. Non-interpolated granularity for the mid-flick shoot
5. Etc. (There are additional niche factors, but the above are the most easily explainable)

Now for #4, it interferes with the Latency Aim Training Effect. If you're trying to stop an 8000 pixels/sec flickturn onto a more exact pixel, 1000Hz poll gives you a granularity of 8 pixels. So shooting mid-turn, your shot will round-off to the nearest 8 pixels. Now on an 8K television, a 8000 pixels/sec mouseturn is a slowturn! since the screen is scrolling slow enough to allow you to shoot objects mid-slowflick, much like a sideways-scrolling archery target.

Now your latency training in aiming mid-flick will have natural human jitter (e.g. your reaction time might be fairly consistent 150-160ms for a well-trained pre-primed predictable stimuli like an object about to scroll past crosshairs, a reaction time variance of 10ms -- but most of your hits may hit close to the 155ms mark, in a tighter 3-to-4ms span). This is pre-primed reaction, not the wider >10-20ms variances seen in reaction time benchmarks using random-flash stimuli. With such a tight latency training effect for pre-primed stimuli (e.g. turning past a stationary target at constant speed predictably scrolling past your crosshairs), a 1ms granularity error can create significant feel of miss. You don't feel the millisecond, but you feel the increased misses.

This is easier to test at 125Hz poll rates -- 8ms misses are easy to feel. But with the Vicious Cycle Effect at play, we're starting to reach the point where (4) actually is a legitimate factor.

For me, personally, I'm all about motion (1) and (2), because 1000Hz poll creates human-visible microstutter during ultra-Hz or strobed operation, so microstutter-futureproofing for future displays requires >1000Hz poll rates for retina-resolution ultra-Hz displays.

Internet latency will usually make (4) not matter, but in solo/LAN, can emerge. Thus, I'm more about the issue of (1) and (2) personally myself, smoothing out motion further, which affects all situations (solo and non-solo)

You can see this effect much more easily with low-DPI high-ingame-sensitivity situation, where your slowturns are steppy-steppy (e.g. mouseturn 1 mousepad dpi turns into a 10 pixel onscreen mouseturn). Easy to see when moving mouse really slowly during low DPI (e.g. 400dpi) with in-game sensitivity cranked up high. This is a great demo of 400dpi being absolutely shit. (Even 800dpi is getting there). Now if you reduce sensitivity, the slowturns get smoother. But if you increase DPI again, the slowturns get coarser again.

Now, pollrate won't affect slowturns (much like high DPI will) nearly as much as fast-turns, but the granularity effect is still there, just harder to see because you cannot see it except via single-stepping YouTubes or high speed videos.

The best of all worlds is super-high-DPI (native, non-interpolated) combined with super-high-pollrate, combined with retina refresh rate and retina resolution, bruteforcing the weak links away, so that it's smooth even for sloooooow turns and fast flick turns (no steppy-steppy effects seen visually OR in high speed videos).

Also, the rule of geometric upgrades that I recommend for the diminishing curve of returns, apply here. This is especially true when upgrading refresh rate (1.5x upgrade like 60Hz->144Hz->360Hz or 2.0x upgrade like 120Hz->240Hz->480Hz). But also applies to upgrading mouse poll rate. For pollrates, even suggest upgrading 4x-8x though, much like 125Hz->1000Hz->8000Hz, for human-feelable benefits though, though low-sensitivity low-framerate users will not notice, especially for 144Hz-and-under.
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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by 1000WATT » 27 Aug 2020, 17:01

NDUS wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 12:48
Because polling doesn't just influence granularity when you move the cursor, it also influences when you stop it. Also, one doesn't always fire perfectly at the end of flicks, but sometimes in the middle. Frame-advance many of the flicks in this video (,. are the youtube hotkeys for frame-advance) and you'll see what I mean
You're envisioning a scenario where you flick from A to B, fully rest the crosshair on B and fire. In reality the sequence is different
This targeting temperament is very similar to the one we used 20 years ago playing Quake. Mouse movement is not interrupted when the fire button is pressed. :P
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Re: Native (plug-and-play) 8000hz mouse

Post by RonsonPL » 30 Aug 2020, 19:02

I cannot wait for some test results for this AtomPalm Hydrogen mouse. Hopefully it means that it's finally possible to get perfect motion clarity in FPP/TPP games on a mouse.
(At least for 1080p 120Hz which I'm using.)

There's no need for special tests. Just use strafing or a game with joypad support and do this:

- set the game to constant 120fps @120Hz
- use strobed display with CRT-like motion clarity (good old Benq 2411z with BBR strobe mode works well)
- move towards anything which provides detatails you can track with your eyes in motion.
- disable any mouse processing in game if there's an option. Usually under "raw input: ON/OFF"
- adjust the settings and position, do a few test moves, so you can more or less get the strafe/joypad and mouse motion at comparable speed



Now when the object moves in a similar fashion, you can clearly see the image being distorted/blurred while testing it on a 500-1000Hz mouse. Keyboard strafe moves or turning the camera with a joypad gives you perfect motion clarity. A "slow" mouse does not.

Fingers crossed this 8000Hz mouse brings the change I've been looking up for since quite some time.

* I'm not sure it will always work. Some games might have broken or filtered mouse steering. I can say this test shows a huge difference in Battlefield 4.

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