Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Oct 2020, 19:44

I also have the PG259QN here.

So let me make a few comments --

But the high-lag 500fps VSYNC OFF is contrary to my experience;



Glado wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 14:56
-Something concerning I noticed is that if I enabled gsync and vsync my fps is locked hovering between 330-340fps. This makes me think the monitor does not reach a true 360 hz in game? My fps in game climbs to 500 easily so I would imagine that it has to be an issue on the monitor side forcing my fps lower than it should?
That's not bad -- that means something was designed correctly somewhere (monitor + game + drivers). If 330-340fps hovering is occuring, then that's actually very good news! G-SYNC is lowest lag when framerates doesn't try to exceed refreshrates. That's why we recommend people to cap G-SYNC to a framerate about 3fps-to-10fps below Hz. But you didn't have to install RTSS, so that means something was made more user-friendly by doing it automatically somewhere! The higher the refresh rate, the more breathing room. If it's self capping slightly below Hz, then something is already working in your monitor to do a nearly lagless G-SYNC, because G-SYNC lag mainly only occurs when framerates try to exceed refresh rates.

G-SYNC mainly becomes very bad for esports when there's a latency-change effect from G-SYNC operation (framerate in VRR range) and non-G-SYNC operation (framerates outside VRR range). By a proper self-capping behavior, the latency feels consistent regardless of framerates. And the ultrafast scanout velocity prevents the G-SYNC lag.

That's why most 144Hz esports users usually don't use G-SYNC, but at 360Hz, using G-SYNC is now esports-worthy and becoming pretty darn near compromise-free.

In other words, if you play competitive esports and want G-SYNC, you need a super high refresh rate, so your framerate range is completely within VRR range, and also having minimum possible scanout-related latency.

G-SYNC is the world's lowest-latency "non-VSYNC-OFF" technology, if you hate tearing, but it does require an ultrahigh refresh rate to reduce the mandatory scanout lag (high speed videos of display scanout)
Glado wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 14:56
All in all, because of this variety of issues this monitor has felt like a mixed bag for me. For $700 I expected a superb monitor that would blow everything else I had used out of the water and I do not feel like I got that. Not being able to remove gsync is bizarre to me since I’ve never used it before and the fps capping lower than expected with vsync enabled seems to indicate an issue with the monitor (this has never happened with any other monitor I’ve tested).
Actually that's normal, if you read the 14-page GSYNC 101, it's been advice for the last 7 years to have a framerate cap slightly below max Hz. If that is being automatically done, then all the vendors did something correctly with improving G-SYNC + VSYNC to avoid VSYNC ON latency with the max framerate.

Historically, in the past, esports players had the problematic latency-change effect (framerates ranges bigger than VRR range), but with the ginormous VRR range that 30Hz-360Hz offers, manages to capture nearly all the games framerate ranges completely inside the VRR range, eliminating one of the major latency compromise effects. Goodbye "G-SYNC is laggy" excuses from esports players....

Now.... addressing VSYNC OFF. On my PG259QN, I am able to get pretty-low-lag 500fps VSYNC OFF if I wanted, so I'm a little stumped why you're getting massive lag at 500fps+ VSYNC OFF. (Hmmm....maybe my firmware version is different? But try the steps below)

I'm a motion-quality nut more than a latency nut (though I want both). I am picky about all motion artifacts (blur, tearing, stutter), so 360Hz G-SYNC almost looks like stutterless LightBoost (nearly blurless sample-and-hold).

Have you done the following:
1. Break in new monitor for a few hours at max brightness (GtG is slower after freshly shipped due to pressure spots & cold temps)
2. Fresh NVIDIA driver uninstall-reinstall cycle (reset all settings)
3. Factory Reset your monitor (sometimes default settings are corrupted)
4. Power cycle of monitor AND power cycle of computer (5 seconds unplugged for both, after fresh driver reinstall)
5. VSYNC OFF in NVIDIA Control Panel
6. VSYNC OFF in Game Settings
7. Single monitor operation (Multimonitor can interfere with each other's sync technologies).
8. Full screen exclusive operation.

Have you done all #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8?
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Stevie66 » 02 Oct 2020, 19:56

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 19:44
I also have the PG259QN here.
Glado wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 14:56
-Something concerning I noticed is that if I enabled gsync and vsync my fps is locked hovering between 330-340fps. This makes me think the monitor does not reach a true 360 hz in game? My fps in game climbs to 500 easily so I would imagine that it has to be an issue on the monitor side forcing my fps lower than it should?
That's not bad -- that means something was designed correctly somewhere (monitor + game + drivers). If 330-340fps hovering is occuring, then that's actually very good news! G-SYNC is lowest lag when framerates doesn't try to exceed refreshrates. That's why we recommend people to cap G-SYNC to a framerate about 3fps-to-10fps below Hz. The higher the refresh rate, the more breathing room. If it's self capping slightly below Hz, then something is already working in your monitor to do a nearly lagless G-SYNC, because G-SYNC lag mainly only occurs when framerates try to exceed refresh rates.

G-SYNC mainly becomes very bad for esports when there's a latency-change effect from G-SYNC operation (framerate in VRR range) and non-G-SYNC operation (framerates outside VRR range). By a proper self-capping behavior, the latency feels consistent regardless of framerates. And the ultrafast scanout velocity prevents the G-SYNC lag.

That's why most 144Hz esports users usually don't use G-SYNC, but at 360Hz, using G-SYNC is now esports-worthy and becoming pretty darn near compromise-free.

In other words, if you play competitive esports and want G-SYNC, you need a super high refresh rate, so your framerate range is completely within VRR range, and also having minimum possible scanout-related latency.

G-SYNC is the world's lowest-latency "non-VSYNC-OFF" technology, if you hate tearing, but it does require an ultrahigh refresh rate to reduce the mandatory scanout lag (high speed videos of display scanout)
Glado wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 14:56
All in all, because of this variety of issues this monitor has felt like a mixed bag for me. For $700 I expected a superb monitor that would blow everything else I had used out of the water and I do not feel like I got that. Not being able to remove gsync is bizarre to me since I’ve never used it before and the fps capping lower than expected with vsync enabled seems to indicate an issue with the monitor (this has never happened with any other monitor I’ve tested).
Actually that's normal, if you read the 14-page GSYNC 101, it's been advice for the last 7 years to have a framerate cap slightly below max Hz. If that is being automatically done, then all the vendors did something correctly with improving G-SYNC + VSYNC to avoid VSYNC ON latency with the max framerate.

Historically, in the past, esports players had the problematic latency-change effect (framerates ranges bigger than VRR range), but with the ginormous VRR range that 30Hz-360Hz offers, manages to capture nearly all the games framerate ranges completely inside the VRR range, eliminating one of the major latency compromise effects. Goodbye "G-SYNC is laggy" excuses from esports players....

Now.... addressing VSYNC OFF. On my PG259QN, I am able to get pretty-low-lag 500fps VSYNC OFF if I wanted, so I'm a little stumped why you're getting massive lag at 500fps+ VSYNC OFF. (Hmmm....maybe my firmware version is different? But try the steps below)

I'm a motion-quality nut more than a latency nut (though I want both). I am picky about all motion artifacts (blur, tearing, stutter), so 360Hz G-SYNC almost looks like stutterless LightBoost (nearly blurless sample-and-hold).

Have you done the following:
1. Break in new monitor for a few hours at max brightness (GtG is slower after freshly shipped due to pressure spots & cold temps)
2. Fresh NVIDIA driver uninstall-reinstall cycle (reset all settings)
3. Factory Reset your monitor (sometimes default settings are corrupted)
4. Power cycle of monitor AND power cycle of computer (5 seconds unplugged for both, after fresh driver reinstall)
5. VSYNC OFF in NVIDIA Control Panel
6. VSYNC OFF in Game Settings
7. Single monitor operation (Multimonitor can interfere with each other's sync technologies).
8. Full screen exclusive operation.

Have you done all #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8?
How are you liking the OD on Normal and 360hz clarity compared to the other 240-280hz monitors?

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by RLCSContender* » 02 Oct 2020, 20:05

Alpha wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 21:39
360hz no OD

360hz no od st.jpg Had to use a snipping tool due to image size.

240hz no OD

240hz no OD.jpg

I did not have the capacity today to go through the proper steps Chief listed. Sorry guys. These are with an iphone cam.
Judging by the asymmetrical blur, it looks like it's around 3.8-4.2 ms g2g range(similar to that of OD OFF on the Acer Predator XB253Q Gx).

your UFO tests are satisfactory and acceptable. (i'm guessing the shutter on your camera is different when it's on default compared to my samsung galaxy 10s camera) because on my camera, without tweaking the shutter speed, i can easily get a perfect white straight line with a gap in between when i do UFO tests at 240hz.

based off what i see in your UFO tests, the PG259QN on OD OFF is slower than the MSI MAG251RX, Alienware AW2521HFl, and Asus TUF VG259QM because it has more asymmetrical blur. So if what you posted is true, i will have to PASS on purchasing and reviewing this monitor.

But before i jump to any quick judgements

can you do another UFO test but this time, WAIT ONE HOUR

(make sure your monitor does not turn off). Usually, it takes about 30 mins for the monitor to warm up and 45 mins to reach its peak pixel responsiveness.

if what you posted are the actual UFO test for the asus PG259QN, then i will have to pass on purchasing this because unfortunately, OD OFF is its OPTIMAL overdrive setting since the default overdrive has inverse ghosting coronas. Regular ghosting is MPRT protected and extremely DIFFICULT to spot when there's a fast moving object. Here's an example of my alienware aw2521HFL at 3000 pixel speed, i don't see ONE ghosting asymmetrical blur. but at 3000 pixel speed, even at 1% overshoot, there's A CRAPLOAD Of asymmetrical blur.

Essentially, ANY OD with inverse ghosting coronas is unplayable in my opinion. Then again, not many ppl here are esports professionals so their standards on what they think is "acceptable" may differ from mine.

3000 pixel speed(no ghosting, just motion blur)

phpBB [video]


for reference this is 960 pixel speed (no ghosting) SKIP until you get to the 30 second mark, that is when i begin the pursuit test. , notice how SLOW that is. You only see that in NOOB lobbies.

phpBB [video]

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by effjaysea » 02 Oct 2020, 20:44

Chief how you liking the 360hz monitor? How does it compare to your current 240hz in motion blur & input lag?

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Oct 2020, 22:36

360 Hz is worth it in many fronts, but obviously, GtG response is the biggest brick wall limiting factor diminishing 240Hz versus 360Hz at this time. It's clearly visible when you properly whac-a-mole the weak links (framerate, GPU, mouse, game optimization, no multimonitor, etc) -- but instead of 1.5x better, it's more like 1.3x better(ish). It's easy to not tell the difference if you haven't properly optimized -- systems have so many weak links that you must optimize to whac a mole all them away. For example, I now also have the prototype 8000 Hz Razer mouse, and it's helping 360 Hz mucho.

For many laypeople, it's marginal for my usual Blur Busters upgrade recommendation, "upgrade your refresh rate and frame rate by 2x". e.g. 120Hz -> 240Hz -> 480Hz.

Mind you, I don't have the 280 Hz monitor or the MSI model, so I can't versus it againts the older 280 Hz ASUS monitor, or the MSI monitor here.
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Stevie66 » 02 Oct 2020, 22:59

RLCScontender wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 20:05
Alpha wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 21:39
360hz no OD

360hz no od st.jpg Had to use a snipping tool due to image size.

240hz no OD

240hz no OD.jpg

I did not have the capacity today to go through the proper steps Chief listed. Sorry guys. These are with an iphone cam.
Judging by the asymmetrical blur, it looks like it's around 3.8-4.2 ms g2g range(similar to that of OD OFF on the Acer Predator XB253Q Gx).

your UFO tests are satisfactory and acceptable. (i'm guessing the shutter on your camera is different when it's on default compared to my samsung galaxy 10s camera) because on my camera, without tweaking the shutter speed, i can easily get a perfect white straight line with a gap in between when i do UFO tests at 240hz.

based off what i see in your UFO tests, the PG259QN on OD OFF is slower than the MSI MAG251RX, Alienware AW2521HFl, and Asus TUF VG259QM because it has more asymmetrical blur. So if what you posted is true, i will have to PASS on purchasing and reviewing this monitor.

But before i jump to any quick judgements

can you do another UFO test but this time, WAIT ONE HOUR

(make sure your monitor does not turn off). Usually, it takes about 30 mins for the monitor to warm up and 45 mins to reach its peak pixel responsiveness.

if what you posted are the actual UFO test for the asus PG259QN, then i will have to pass on purchasing this because unfortunately, OD OFF is its OPTIMAL overdrive setting since the default overdrive has inverse ghosting coronas. Regular ghosting is MPRT protected and extremely DIFFICULT to spot when there's a fast moving object. Here's an example of my alienware aw2521HFL at 3000 pixel speed, i don't see ONE ghosting asymmetrical blur. but at 3000 pixel speed, even at 1% overshoot, there's A CRAPLOAD Of asymmetrical blur.

Essentially, ANY OD with inverse ghosting coronas is unplayable in my opinion. Then again, not many ppl here are esports professionals so their standards on what they think is "acceptable" may differ from mine.

3000 pixel speed(no ghosting, just motion blur)

phpBB [video]


for reference this is 960 pixel speed (no ghosting) SKIP until you get to the 30 second mark, that is when i begin the pursuit test. , notice how SLOW that is. You only see that in NOOB lobbies.

phpBB [video]
OD Normal does not have inverse ghosting coronas, as you can see from the reviews that are out now, it's way faster and clearer than the Alienware, MSI and Asus etc on their best settings.

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Oct 2020, 23:55

RLCScontender wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 20:05
Judging by the asymmetrical blur, it looks like it's around 3.8-4.2 ms g2g range(similar to that of OD OFF on the Acer Predator XB253Q Gx).
Although blur asymmetry is visible, there's still a bit of camera blur making it blurrier than WYSIWYG. From my knowledge of sync track artifacts; I can definitively confirm error margin of camera blur is greater than the blur difference of the MSI photos vs ASUS PG259QN photo. It's normal for 360Hz to ghost more than 240Hz for OD-off at the same GtG, simply because more refresh cycles smear into each other, so non-OD asymmetry may be slightly worse, but with OD-on, it is much better. With proper light amount of overdrive, the 360Hz ASUS is clearer than practically all 240Hz monitors on average (for total amount of motion blur), though some minor blur asymmetry (ghosting) still exist. Now... It's a sight to behold to get this amount of motion clarity on an LCD without needing storbing!

Ideally, at 360Hz, you really need 1920pps with less than 0.5 pixel error in the Sync Track. This Sync Track ain't it.

I downloaded Alpha's image, zoomed it by 400%, rotated it to be perfectly horizontal, then drew purple lines to show the error margin.

Image

See, too much camera blur. See the pursuit camera sync accuracy charts in Handwave Smartphone Pursuit Camera HOWTO Thread:

Image

Today, 360 Hz pushes the limits of pursuit camera photography. I now recommend 1920 pixels/second instead of 960 pixels/second for monitors that are 240 Hz and higher. Next build of TestUFO Ghosting Test (upon detecting >240Hz) will pop up a warning message about needing to do accurate pursuit camera photography at faster speeds.
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Glado » 03 Oct 2020, 04:22

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 19:44
Have you done the following:
1. Break in new monitor for a few hours at max brightness (GtG is slower after freshly shipped due to pressure spots & cold temps)
2. Fresh NVIDIA driver uninstall-reinstall cycle (reset all settings)
3. Factory Reset your monitor (sometimes default settings are corrupted)
4. Power cycle of monitor AND power cycle of computer (5 seconds unplugged for both, after fresh driver reinstall)
5. VSYNC OFF in NVIDIA Control Panel
6. VSYNC OFF in Game Settings
7. Single monitor operation (Multimonitor can interfere with each other's sync technologies).
8. Full screen exclusive operation.

Have you done all #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8?
First off thanks for the well thought out points. I had not thought about the frame capping below max hz potentially being a beneficial cap put into place to prevent gsync lag at the upper limit of the monitor refresh rate.

As to your list of points above, the only one I have not tried above is 3. I will give that a go some time tomorrow and see what happens.

After further testing tonight I am thinking the best setting I have found is gsync on, vsync off, low latency mode ultra. I am still actively fiddling with the settings to try to find some settings that feel better than this. If I make any kind of breakthrough and see a big improvement with anything I’ll be sure to report back here!

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Joined: 28 Jul 2020, 11:05

Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Glado » 03 Oct 2020, 04:33

Stevie66 wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 19:56
How are you liking the OD on Normal and 360hz clarity compared to the other 240-280hz monitors?
I think clarity wise the Pg259qn is better or at least comparable to the vg259qm with the recommended settings from the owners forum here. I don’t see any huge differences in game between the two which is good because I felt both were excellent for clarity.

As for input lag, which I feel is the most important factor for me, a crazy part of me feels this monitor is not as responsive. I keep telling myself it has to be placebo and that I’m just second guessing myself after the initial 3 hours playing with gsync off where the monitor was lagging horribly, but I can’t shake the feeling.

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Re: Official Asus ROG Swift 360Hz PG259QN Owners Thread

Post by Alpha » 03 Oct 2020, 08:41

Glado wrote:
03 Oct 2020, 04:33
Stevie66 wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 19:56
How are you liking the OD on Normal and 360hz clarity compared to the other 240-280hz monitors?
I think clarity wise the Pg259qn is better or at least comparable to the vg259qm with the recommended settings from the owners forum here. I don’t see any huge differences in game between the two which is good because I felt both were excellent for clarity.

As for input lag, which I feel is the most important factor for me, a crazy part of me feels this monitor is not as responsive. I keep telling myself it has to be placebo and that I’m just second guessing myself after the initial 3 hours playing with gsync off where the monitor was lagging horribly, but I can’t shake the feeling.
To my eyes the PG259QN is a significant improvement over my VG259QM but I haven't messed with GSync off much. eSports mode with brightness set appropriately is my go to. That's with OD Normal but I haven't played with the others. Picture is more accurate, shadow boost more effective, and clarity in motion through the entire fps range. VG259QM is completely unplayable at lower FPS so if your system hits a snag that pull or lag is brutal and can easily cost you a match (referring to SBMM on FPS, my only experience). On a good system I wouldn't worry so much if a person plays esports games but on popular games like COD or soon to be Cold War, those hiccups can get you killed especially in Warzone.

I feel you on the input lag and been slow to post as I mentioned to Chief in the 8000hz polling thread as a result. I was hyped to try Reflex only to dislike it due to things feeling slow. This changed after the DDU instance. On HumanBenchmark my typical average times climbed almost 20ms all the way to the upper 150s some landing at 160 (WTF!!). I started with LatencyMon and went down the system latency hole but not finding any glaring issues. Maybe I'm broke lol. TFT should have their update this weekend I believe and anxious to see Chiefs side as he'll answer any questions I'd ever have including the ones I didn't know to ask.

Finally, I DDU'd my drivers and reinstalled and feel this is a lot better but its just in games. My OS is immaculately kept. In Windows, it still feels off. Aimlabs for me is unplayable. Clicks don't register despite the mouse clearly being on target and the mouse lag is visible when loading in it's pretty incredible. I hit this with OBS slowed down and zoomed in. Fortunately I am not crazy... well maybe it's better put I am right. I am clearly hitting it isn't registering for some reason. There is something still missing and I am with you and quite honestly I am not sure where it lives. Windows issues, Aimlabs has an issue that's in my head, BIOS issue, AGESA issue, monitor issue, I am just not certain.

My first professional contest with it is next weekend so I'll know more. No memes, full prep, rest, and the like so I'll see. Hoping to rule out all system stuff and going to roll back my bios to rule out that being a potential issue since it was just recently updated. I really need a 8000hz mouse.

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