I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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phaze
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by phaze » 02 Oct 2020, 02:22

I already addressed this on page 2, a few posts ago. Native 8000Hz is achieved using bespoke hardware, it isn't a firmware/software update.
The thing is I wanna buy the Razer Deathadder V2 and I don't wanna rush and wait for the 8000Hz capable deathadder new version😭, Im so lost.

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MaxTendency
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by MaxTendency » 02 Oct 2020, 04:11

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 12:00
We're actually looking at a Synapse software feature that would allow polling to be allocated to a single CPU core with "high" priority to minimize the impact, given how games are GPU bottlenecked anyways. No promises yet though, still an exploration.
Hi, 2 quick questions.

1. Will we also be able to set a static polling rate? Atom Palm has confirmed to have an option to set a static polling but unless I missed something I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere for the razer 8hkhz prototype.

2. Will we be able to set a static sensor scan rate as well? I believe this is more in the hands of pixart , but I'm hoping Razer might be big enough customer to request such feature :D

Having an adaptive polling or sensor scanrate makes no sense to me for a desktop wired mice, maybe on wireless it would be useful trade off. But on wired mice I'd much rather have them static as I suspect it would remove/fix the higher initial latency or the "sticky-ness" felt at the start of your mouse movement. With static polling and framerate making micro-adjustments ingame should be far more responsive.

Alpha
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Alpha » 02 Oct 2020, 06:32

This is extremely exciting. I always grab a lot of mice (have half a dozen Razer. Last year or so what a come back). I ordered a mouse just announced I tend to like the brand but they couldn't answer simple questions like what microcontroller is being used or what the internal processing latency is. They couldn't answer rather or a person could configure and save to on board memory (it has) and remove the software which is a huge flag for me and its evident that its not really designed for my needs. Looks like I'll cancel and see what develops here (it's a month out).

Razer,

If you're listening, Synapse has way to much going on. Its a powerful tool but needs to have the ability to completely disappear with in reason. Just removing the software is equivalent literally if not worse than removing older ransomware manually. Maybe there is a package out there I am not aware of as a clean up tool for this. This is in regards to what feels like unnecessary processes running.

Chief-

For FPS, what is the issue with 400dpi for example? This could be interesting as some games would not allow a proper conversion of sensitivity between 400 and 1600. I am thinking some eSports titles. When people start to understand muscle memory, FOV, and map the games to all have essentially the same aim (ADS can vary of course) we're talking turning someone from an arm aimer (most pros) to wrist aimer. Is this going to be possible in way that Blur Busters would sign off on making it more than a marketing implementation due to potential lack of use vs one of technical advantage like you have spoken about in the past? An example would be a direct conversion for my FOV would be (example) 74 @ 10 in game sensitivity for a 360 degree hip fire @ 15.708 inches. 1600 would be not be possible and there would be a 25% discrepancy (19.635 inches). This would mean as a professional player, the devs have to change the game or wouldn't be able to use without changing sensitivity (not a good idea).

Definitely seems that Razer is aware of the usage cases and will appropriately address. Major bravo. Hope these come soon.

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Razer_TheFiend
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Razer_TheFiend » 02 Oct 2020, 08:05

MaxTendency wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 04:11
Hi, 2 quick questions.

1. Will we also be able to set a static polling rate? Atom Palm has confirmed to have an option to set a static polling but unless I missed something I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere for the razer 8hkhz prototype.

2. Will we be able to set a static sensor scan rate as well? I believe this is more in the hands of pixart , but I'm hoping Razer might be big enough customer to request such feature :D

Having an adaptive polling or sensor scanrate makes no sense to me for a desktop wired mice, maybe on wireless it would be useful trade off. But on wired mice I'd much rather have them static as I suspect it would remove/fix the higher initial latency or the "sticky-ness" felt at the start of your mouse movement. With static polling and framerate making micro-adjustments ingame should be far more responsive.
1. Not something that's planned at the moment. There is no evidence (that I'm aware of) that "static" polling rate does anything more than keep the CPU perpetually busy. No point in keeping the CPU pinned even when there's nothing to report (even when the mouse is idle).

2. The development prototypes have the framerate locked to 20,000fps at the moment. Outside of sensor's physical limits, we have no restrictions in terms of what sensor framerates to run. We've played with several options : 1-20k dynamic, 8k-20k dynamic, 8k locked, 16k locked, 20k locked. The "stickiness" from standstill that you mention is observable in our data if the framerate is too low, especially when the polling interval is so fast (i.e. 125us).

howiec
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 02 Oct 2020, 08:28

Higher polling rates could've and should've been done years ago but better now than never and very happy to see this in addition to the Hydrogen.

As a claw-fingertip grip user, I hope we'll also see a something similar to the Deathadder Mini (or even an updated ergo design) but with Focus+ and 8kHz.

There's no reason not to have 8kHz (or even higher when available) for all future mice as it should become the norm.

Already pre-ordered my PG259QN and will be getting a RTX 3090 when they're back in stock so an 8kHz mouse is all that's left for now (well aside from the Corsair K100...)!

bakedchicken
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by bakedchicken » 02 Oct 2020, 08:55

please at least give the option to lock everything, even if you think it makes no difference. option to lock 8000hz, lock framerate of sensor. remove all power savings. any way to improve the mouse in the two main metrics of sensor input latency and sensor accuracy.

I am hoping for more people to start treating reviewing with the proper metrics of what makes it good (not how big of a dpi or how big of a number you can get on the 50m mouse clicks), but instead measuring the latency of the clicks, latency of the sensor, and tracking accuracy of the sensor. i also think these metrics are more marketable and demonstrable than the dpi and click # we see now.

1. click latency for example: all the computer reviewers out there measuring the latency of the click (almost widely accepted as measurable and therefore too many to post)

2.sensor accuracy for example:
https://youtu.be/swmL1CVHg4I?t=351
https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv7731717
hopefully razer with your resources can officially push this sort of metric for mice. i think if you can demonstrate a much better sensor accuracy with MORE detailed proof (honestly 1% inaccuracy is pretty a huge variance if you move even half the screen) it will be good for improving mice in general and people will look favorably to your brand and products. (also as innovation, please demonstrate if there is mouse movement latency differences showing differing variables such as mice, mousepads, and computers)

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speancer
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by speancer » 02 Oct 2020, 08:55

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 13:12
speancer wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 13:00
When would you say we could expect 8000 Hz polling rate mice to hit the market?

Also, is 8000 Hz wireless achievable or there are currently technical obstacles that would prevent such implementation? I got so used to wireless mice that I don't wanna go back.
Hard to say... The hardware is near-enough ready. We already know of some OS-level, controller-level and game-engine specific issues that we're already working with their respective owners to resolve. We don't want to release a product which has a very narrow operating window. An average customer will just perceive it as defective, since they don't care about the underlying root-cause of the issues. Once we resolve those issues, have a software developed and QA'd, we can go into production.

RE wireless : Not really feasible at the moment. Energy/Battery life is obviously one concern, and in addition, the wireless transaction time for our proprietary RF takes well over 125us (even though we're the fastest of anyone out there). Then you need some time for redundancy/recovery of lost-packets. > 1000Hz is definitely possible, but 4000 might be a bridge too far at the moment.
Thank you for answering. I feared 8000 Hz polling rate for wireless mouse would not be possible (for now I guess), too bad you confirmed my concerns.

Would you mind answering a few more questions?

Do you guys have a higher polling rate version of your excellent Viper Ultimate in plans, I mean, with as high polling rate as you possibly could manage for a wireless mouse?

Also, I wonder why there's such a gap in case of mouse polling rate. I mean, most things get progressively better over time, so why with mice there's 1000 Hz everywhere for years and suddenly everyone's talking about 8000 Hz? :P Looks like a pretty big step up, or perhaps I missed something? I do recall some news about 2000 Hz polling rate on some Corsair mouse once I think, but not much other than that.

Would you say my i7 4790K @ 4.7 GHz (it's over 6 years old, how the time flies!) can handle 8000 Hz polling rate? I've heard some concerns that older CPUs might have some trouble dealing with such high polling rate. I still don't see a reason to upgrade, CS:GO runs great, I rather rarely play other games, competitive play is my main focus.

Also, do you think CS:GO will take advantage of 8000 Hz polling, or perhaps there could be some technical obstacles that you could think of?
Tested displays: ASUS VG259QMASUS VG279QMHP Omen X 25fBenQ Zowie XL2546 MSI MAG251RXAcer Predator XB273 XAcer Predator XB271HU
Displays to test: BenQ Zowie XL2546K (currently testing)

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Razer_TheFiend
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Razer_TheFiend » 02 Oct 2020, 09:21

howiec wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 08:28
There's no reason not to have 8kHz (or even higher when available) for all future mice as it should become the norm.
The biggest reason is usability. Once all games/applications catch up, this assertion would be true. But as of now, when the rest of the ecosystem hasn't caught up, it wouldn't make any sense to push more expensive mice on everyone when people will have to set them back down to lower polling rates anyways.
bakedchicken wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 08:55
2.sensor accuracy for example:
https://youtu.be/swmL1CVHg4I?t=351
https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv7731717
hopefully razer with your resources can officially push this sort of metric for mice. i think if you can demonstrate a much better sensor accuracy with MORE detailed proof (honestly 1% inaccuracy is pretty a huge variance if you move even half the screen) it will be good for improving mice in general and people will look favorably to your brand and products. (also as innovation, please demonstrate if there is mouse movement latency differences showing differing variables such as mice, mousepads, and computers)
DPI deviation has nothing to do with sensor accuracy and everything to do with unit-to-unit variance. There are manufacturing and assebly level tolerances at all stages : in silicon (CMOS pixels), sensor illumination(LED), mechanical mounting of sensor, variation in thickness of skates, unit-variation in lens, properties of surface being used (and i'm probably missing a few more) - which means that even 2 units of the same mouse don't have the exact same DPI - let alone two different mice with the same sensor, or two mice with different sensor.
speancer wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 08:55
Also, I wonder why there's such a gap in case of mouse polling rate. I mean, most things get progressively better over time, so why with mice there's 1000 Hz everywhere for years and suddenly everyone's talking about 8000 Hz? :P Looks like a pretty big step up, or perhaps I missed something? I do recall some news about 2000 Hz polling rate on some Corsair mouse once I think, but not much other than that.

Would you say my i7 4790K @ 4.7 GHz (it's over 6 years old, how the time flies!) can handle 8000 Hz polling rate? I've heard some concerns that older CPUs might have some trouble dealing with such high polling rate. I still don't see a reason to upgrade, CS:GO runs great, I rather rarely play other games, competitive play is my main focus.

Also, do you think CS:GO will take advantage of 8000 Hz polling, or perhaps there could be some technical obstacles that you could think of?
USB full-speed supports 1ms polls at best, USB high-speed supports 0.125ms polls at best. All past mice (even the "overclocked" 8000Hz mice) were using USB full-speed controllers. Now that we're using a high-speed controller, there's no reason to stop somewhere in between - we went straight to 0.125ms polls.

4790K is just fine, one of our regular test machines is 4690K+GTX1080 and it can get consistent 8000Hz no problem. Same with my 4702HQ-based work laptop (Razer Blade 2013).

CS:GO is probably the only game where I am qualified enough to share any strong opinions (probably over 15k hours in CS and CSGO combined). I could definitely feel the improvement myself, but I'll qualify it by saying that everyone's system setup, perception and settings are different, so I'd encourage people to form their own opinions on it.

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MaxTendency
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by MaxTendency » 02 Oct 2020, 09:26

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 08:05
1. Not something that's planned at the moment. There is no evidence (that I'm aware of) that "static" polling rate does anything more than keep the CPU perpetually busy. No point in keeping the CPU pinned even when there's nothing to report (even when the mouse is idle).
The "stickiness" from standstill that you mention is observable in our data if the framerate is too low, especially when the polling interval is so fast (i.e. 125us).
That's good to know. Even at 500hz or 1000hz (1.6k dpi) the latency is always higher on the initial movement. I suspected it to be caused by either adaptive polling or sensor framerate or a combination of both. Having static framerate is very good addition specially on wired mice where battery life isn't a concern.
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 08:05
1. Not something that's planned at the moment. There is no evidence (that I'm aware of) that "static" polling rate does anything more than keep the CPU perpetually busy. No point in keeping the CPU pinned even when there's nothing to report (even when the mouse is idle).
Could you clarify this a bit? Have you guys studied and found no improvement going from adaptive to static polling or is this more of a theory?

From my understanding with an adaptive polling if you move your mouse slowly it doesn't report it at a rate which has been set. For example here the mouse is set to 500hz but if I *continuously* move my mouse at a slow rate the polling never really reaches 500hz.

Image

So having a static polling would in theory make the mouse more responsive when moving at a lower speed or making micro adjustment, or is that not correct and I have a flawed understanding of it?

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Razer_TheFiend
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Razer_TheFiend » 02 Oct 2020, 09:36

MaxTendency wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 09:26
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 08:05
1. Not something that's planned at the moment. There is no evidence (that I'm aware of) that "static" polling rate does anything more than keep the CPU perpetually busy. No point in keeping the CPU pinned even when there's nothing to report (even when the mouse is idle).
Could you clarify this a bit? Have you guys studied and found no improvement going from adaptive to static polling or is this more of a theory?

From my understanding with an adaptive polling if you move your mouse slowly it doesn't report it at a rate which has been set. For example here the mouse is set to 500hz but if I *continuously* move my mouse at a slow rate the polling never really reaches 500hz.

Image

So having a static polling would in theory make the mouse more responsive when moving at a lower speed or making micro adjustment, or is that not correct and I have a flawed understanding of it?
It's not a "theory", it's just simple observation backed by data.

The "Hz" number is very misleading because people use it as a primary metric when it's actually not. The primary metric is the polling interval. You get 0.125ms polling intervals regardless of how fast or slow your mouse is moving. In other words, the total reports you generate in 1 second doesn't dictate the responsiveness of the mouse, it's the polling interval.

As a simplified example, let's say you only move your mouse 4000 pixels in 1 second - that would amount to "only" 4000 reports in one second, which any polling rate testing software will read as "4000Hz". It doesn't mean that your mouse is suddenly less responsive - your polling interval was still 0.125ms; just that some of the reports were "null" because you didn't generate 1-pixel equivalent of motion in the last tick.

Using so called "static" polling rate - the "no report" ticks will still be polled as "+0" and count as a poll in a polling rate software, giving you a higher "Hz" number, but it doesn't actually translate to anything actionable for your PC. The cursor only moves when the PC gets a non-0 count.

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