Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

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Nejdez
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Joined: 30 Oct 2020, 12:17

Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Nejdez » 30 Oct 2020, 15:15

Hey there. This is my first post so bear with me.
A few days ago i decided to finally replace my Asus VG248QE 144hz monitor. My goal is a solid 240hz monitor that is a good allrounder but a little more to the competitive side. I have been watching youtube reviews, tech reviews, reading alot on reddit and on blur busters for the past days and my head is spinning.

Basically what I need is a 240hz that is good enough for solid competitive gaming but also enjoyable for normal gaming too. I main games like Valorant (Immortal 3 currently) and Apex, but i also tend to play games like Tarkov, Destiny and SP games that arent THAT competitive. I dont want to sacrifice too much for the perfect performance, I still want to have nice colors to enjoy good looking games and have gsync for games where i cant hit solid high fps. On the other side i dont want to have noticable blur and regret not going for the "perfect TN" choice.

After digging for days the 4 Monitors i am looking at right now, though you guys can recommend others too, are:
Benq xl2546
DELL Alienware AW2521HFL
MSI optix MAG251rx
ASUS TUF Gaming VG259QM

Im scared that the IPS panel will be a disadvantage to the Benq in terms of blur/delay though ive been hearing and seeing alot of good things about the IPS Panel progress lately. Price is not a problem for me but I can tell you that the Benq(460€) would be the most expensive in my country and the Alienware(330€) would be the cheapest with MSI(350€) and the Asus(350€) in the middle.

Yesterday i bought the Benq and have been playing abit of Valorant and Apex for a bit and definitely notice the 240hz and overall improvement compared to my prior monitor. I can tell you that i probably will NOT use DyAc or any strobing in competitive games for personal reasons. Thats why getting the Gsync replaced by DyAc is a bummer. Do the IPS choices have a big difference in terms of blur and delay and whatnot compared to the Benq? Or is it so small that it would barely impact my competitive side? Because the tradeoff from IPS to TN in terms of color and angles for sure is noticable.

Now im not so sure anymore if the Benq was the right choice, i still have 11 days to give it back and reconsider so I thought i could ask the experts and get some advice. I would really appreciate it because my brain cant take it anymore. My day and night cycle has been nothing but monitors for the past days, haha.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 30 Oct 2020, 20:27

Nejdez wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 15:15
Im scared that the IPS panel will be a disadvantage to the Benq in terms of blur/delay though ive been hearing and seeing alot of good things about the IPS Panel progress lately.
If price is not a problem, consider the 360 Hz monitors. Strobeless motion blur reduction via sheer refresh rate is the cat's beans (while keeping G-SYNC).

280 Hz and 360 Hz IPS has less blur and less lag if you add more framerate to compensate.

240Hz IPS has a very very slight smidge more blur than good 240 Hz TN but I've seen 240 Hz IPS outperform the worse 240 Hz TN. It is already extremely close now.

If you add a bit more refresh rate, such as 280 Hz or 360 Hz, it annihilates the remaining TN disadvantages. Doubling Hz halves motion blur, so the little extra refresh rate oomph can help compensate the now-minor TN-vs-IPS differences.

Since doubling Hz (and framerate) halves motion blur without needing strobing -- Blur Busters usual recommendation is geometric refresh rate upgrades of at least 2x for most average laypeople, 60Hz -> 120Hz -> 240Hz -> 480Hz -> 960Hz.

60Hz to 144Hz = 2.4x upgrade (wow)
144Hz to 360Hz = 2.5x upgrade (wow)
144Hz to 240Hz = 1.67x upgrade (ho-hum)
240Hz to 360Hz = 1.5x upgrade (ho-hum)
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       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Solarflare
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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Solarflare » 04 Nov 2020, 14:05

I'm in a very similar position. Sry if this is a bit of a thread jack but i feel i have a similar question. (i too find sifting through 1000's of monitors insanity inducing esp with all the market jargon ).

I went from a BenQ TN (XL2420T) which i ran with the blur busters strobing but I didn't really like how dark it was.

I switched to a 1440p 144hz Benq EX3202R - and all I see is motion blur everywhere now :( this monitor was like 700 CAD when I bought it.
I have played with so many settings on it and I am at the point of just stuffing it on the guest pc and getting something else because playing FPS on it makes you feel like your drunk lol.

I wanted to stay with 1440p but its not a deal breaker the colors of the VA are quite a lot better than my TN was.

Id rather 27" because i do prefer larger display.

I was looking at your recommended list but I see it was Published Feb 12, 2018 so its at least 2 years behind so now I'm looking at the current list you would recommend.

the image clarity of IPS is definitely appealing over TN it was one of my other reasons for switching although I did not expect this new benQ to have this kind of motion blur.

Do you have any recommendations the biggest fear atm is buying another $700ish monitor and finding i hate it.. as a Canadian I have to order these online so its a giant PITA to just say it sucks as return reason.

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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Nov 2020, 19:47

Here’s your dream monitor:

NanoIPS 1440p 240Hz monitor....2021.

I know the Monitor List is out of date, we’ll be updating it before the Holidays with a brand new system...
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       To support Blur Busters:
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       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Nov 2020, 19:48

Here’s your dream monitor:

NanoIPS 1440p 240Hz monitor....2021.

If you cannot wait, get a 2020-dated NanoIPS 1440p 165Hz.

I know the Monitor List is out of date, we’ll be updating it before the Holidays with a brand new system...
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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axaro1
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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by axaro1 » 05 Nov 2020, 04:34

I'm gonna drop an unpopular opinion, 5 months ago I upgraded from an XG2402 (144hz TN, one of the best tuned 144hz monitor) to a VG259QM.
At first I really liked the VG259QM, it was definitely smoother, mostly because it basically doubled the refresh rate (144 to 280).
The input lag was exceptional.
But after a couple of months of playing it became frustrating to play with it, I dropped from 3600 to 2900sr in Overwatch and I was underperforming in every single game.

Trying to find what was the issue bought a new mouse, a new mousepad and a new keyboard, tried every single windows 10 tweak to reduce telemetry and set a 0.5ms system timer before I was able to isolate the issue to the monitor, which I never thought could be the problem since it sounded like a great upgrade on paper.

The issue in my opinion is that the panel is not fast enough in terms of G2G for both 240 and 280hz, this became obvious because my playstyle completely changed, I used to rely a lot on flicks but I completely stopped doing it and I was completely oblivious about what was going on around me during fast paced fights.

When I switched the VG259QM to 144hz I started hitting crazy shots like the ones I used to make with the XG2402 and I started to rely on flicks much more.

This is where it hit me: It's basically impossible for me to have points of reference on enemies during fast movements on the VG259QM when it is set to a high refresh rate, I can't flick because the moment I start flicking I completely lose sight of the enemy, which is something that doesn't happen at lower refresh rates where G2G is always inside the refresh window.

Don't get me wrong, in games where you need to hold an angle like R6s, CSGO or Valorant the low input lag definitely helps for pixel peeking, but it just doesn't feel okay for fast paced movements, especially when you are trying to move left/right to hold two angles at the same time, I either overshoot or undershoot, I can't find points of reference to understand when I'm supposed to stop, which is something that doesn't happen at lower refresh rates.

From my experience ELMB does mitigate this issue but just marginally.

Soon I'm going to receive an XL2546K and I will compare it with the VG259QM.

I've seen a lot of reviews comparing ufotests between IPS and TN and most of these tests show that at 240hz both panels perform very similarly (some people argue that the IPS perform even better in some scenarios) so it could just be me failing to adapt from 144hz to 240/280hz but I truly don't know what to think at this point.

I came from a 2.9ms G2G TN and jumped to a 2.6ms 280hz IPS(with OD120), I think that the 7.2ms refresh window headroom at 144hz was causing the TN to have perfect transitions which resulted in an overall clearer image, but take my words with a grain of salt.

If I end up not enjoying the XL2546K I will feel like an idiot for selling my XG2402.

I need a normalized gamma response curve graph to understand if my theory about G2G on this 240/280hz panel is correct.
XL2546K 1080p 240hz TN (MAIN) | VG259QM 1080p 280hz IPS | XG2402 1080p 144hz TN | LS24F350 1080p 72hz LPS

R5 3600 4.35ghz 1.237V AVX stable | 3600mhz Hynix C-Die [CJR]https://i.imgur.com/R5Rm34i.png | 5700XT Gaming OC 2059mhz 1121mv[/color]

1mthedudeman
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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by 1mthedudeman » 05 Nov 2020, 14:34

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 20:27
Nejdez wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 15:15
Im scared that the IPS panel will be a disadvantage to the Benq in terms of blur/delay though ive been hearing and seeing alot of good things about the IPS Panel progress lately.
If price is not a problem, consider the 360 Hz monitors. Strobeless motion blur reduction via sheer refresh rate is the cat's beans (while keeping G-SYNC).

280 Hz and 360 Hz IPS has less blur and less lag if you add more framerate to compensate.

240Hz IPS has a very very slight smidge more blur than good 240 Hz TN but I've seen 240 Hz IPS outperform the worse 240 Hz TN. It is already extremely close now.

If you add a bit more refresh rate, such as 280 Hz or 360 Hz, it annihilates the remaining TN disadvantages. Doubling Hz halves motion blur, so the little extra refresh rate oomph can help compensate the now-minor TN-vs-IPS differences.

Since doubling Hz (and framerate) halves motion blur without needing strobing -- Blur Busters usual recommendation is geometric refresh rate upgrades of at least 2x for most average laypeople, 60Hz -> 120Hz -> 240Hz -> 480Hz -> 960Hz.

60Hz to 144Hz = 2.4x upgrade (wow)
144Hz to 360Hz = 2.5x upgrade (wow)
144Hz to 240Hz = 1.67x upgrade (ho-hum)
240Hz to 360Hz = 1.5x upgrade (ho-hum)
When you say add more refresh rate it reduces blur, so that apply to a game when only get 150-180FPS? Would a 280 IPS still have an advantage over a 240 TN?

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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 05 Nov 2020, 16:48

1mthedudeman wrote:
05 Nov 2020, 14:34
When you say add more refresh rate it reduces blur, so that apply to a game when only get 150-180FPS? Would a 280 IPS still have an advantage over a 240 TN?
Short answer:
Not really from the motion blur perspective (however, it might have other advantages)

Long answer:
Motion blur will be proportional to frametime, plus any high-frequency jitter on it (e.g. unsynced, mouse jitter, etc, which all can blend into motion blur, thanks to the stutter-to-blur continuum).

150fps VRR has the same motion blur at 240Hz, 280Hz, 360Hz (strobing=OFF and assuming about same GtG and MPRT response). Any unsynced jitter (VSYNC OFF or mouse microstutter) can be slightly additive to the motion blur in a surprisingly stealthy way.

Fast jitter above flicker fusion thresholds vibrate so fast it blends like a fast-vibrating guitar string, so all sources of jitter (at these stratospheric refresh rates) are all motionblur contributors.

LinusTechTips' use of only a 1000Hz pollrate mouse during their 360Hz tests. This, in addition to slow GtG, was I believe, the two biggest contributors to difficulty in some gamers telling apart 240Hz vs 360Hz.

The 1.5x theoreteical upgrade of 360Hz is assuming GtG=0ms and assuming perfect computer mouse. But due to GtG response being above 0ms, and due to most gamers using only 1000Hz mice (becomes a noticeable limiting factor at >240Hz), it reduces the upgradefeel difference between 240Hz-vs-360Hz to something like only 1.1x in some cases. The system must be re-tuned for the new 360Hz era. (I have a new article coming this month about this)

You may have access to other advantages such as ELMB-SYNC, better colors, and/or better lag than an older laggier TN from five years ago. You ideally want somewhat of a bigger upgrade jump, plus at least framerate=Hz, unless you have other reasons to go IPS.

If you want to break the 240Hz barrier at the best efficiency possible, I now recommend a minimum 2000Hz mouse poll rate (in the upcoming new gaming mice) combined good sufficiently optimized games capable of pushing the refresh rate well. There may be benefits of >240Hz even if you do not optimize but you may get less of your money's worth without some optimizing (better GPU, 2000Hz-capable mouse, etc).
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Solarflare
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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Solarflare » 05 Nov 2020, 17:40

Since most pc's cant sustain 200-240fps in AAA titles @1440p (this gen GPU's have a shot though).
does sticking to 1080p seem like the no brainer for FPS gaming then atm?

I manage with optimized settings to hold above 144fps and i cap at 142-143fps in say COD:MW for example it will do about 150fps at 1440p not everything is low but nothings really ultra either but medium/high settings steady 150fps capped at 142-143.

I could never reach 240fps on 1440p though , i may not even get it on a 3090 or the new AMD gpu's that are coming.

on 1080P i can though 240 is doable maybe more if i tweak.

Some older titles this obviously you pull more fps they just require less to run but most new AAA or so titles it would be tough to pull 200+fps on a current top end single gpu system.

So based on this it would seem from what i read above perhaps 1440p isn't a legit option for demanding fps games if you want low motion blur.

Personally i just want to be able to see what's happening when i'm panning or tracking. it feels like as soon as i move my character i could pan right past enemies and have no clue i did so due to the whole screen just blurring when i pan.I actually play quite well despite this but i can tell what its doing and i adjusted the way i played to fit this issue.

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Re: Need advice deciding on 240hz IPS vs TN

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 05 Nov 2020, 19:22

It is, however, beneficial to have a frame rate range within VRR range. Basically, if your framerate is 150-200fps, it's beneficial to have 240Hz instead of 144Hz.

Having enough room for frame rate range to breathe completely within VRR range makes a cap much less necessary, since VRR caps is simply a lesser-evil latency versus letting framerates max-out on VRR (VSYNC ON latency at framerate=Hz).

Even a 360Hz monitor benefits random framerate ranges of 200-350fps, with the VRR having better fluidity than VSYNC OFF. And higher-Hz has less lag than lower Hz even for lower frame rates (if all other things equal, like same GtG, same frame rate, etc).

That said, for games well below your max Hz, e.g. 150-180fps, then 240Hz vs 280Hz is not enough incremental improvement (4.1ms refresh cycles versus 3.6ms refresh cycles, and only a mostly unnoticeable 16% motion blur reduction at max framerate=Hz).

Blur Busters general preferred upgrade recommendation is to double Hz when upgrading. Which is why we love 144Hz->360Hz more than 144Hz->240Hz or 240Hz->360Hz or 240Hz->280Hz.

Refresh rates need to be upgraded geometrically (60, 120, 240, 480, 960) to punch the diminishing curve of returns.

Now, if you professionally game or have lots of money, even tiny upgrades (240Hz -> 280Hz) is worthwhile, but make sure to temper your expectations, knowing that tiny percentage-wise refresh rate upgrades are usually too deep in diminishing returns.

Many of you do upgrade small Hz increments; but for those unfamiliar with refresh rate upgrades, should at least become familiar with doubling Hz halving motion blur on flickerfree displays, thus the geometric Hz upgrades required. (i.e. non-strobed / non-ULMB / non-LightBoost / non-CRT / motion blur reduction mode turned off). Panel switches (e.g. VA->TN) usually have bigger motion upgradefeel than tiny refresh rate upgrades (e.g. 240->280Hz) unless gaining other benefits you wanted (e.g. ELMB-SYNC).
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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