ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

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Zace
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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by Zace » 02 Jan 2022, 02:31

namcost wrote:
02 Jan 2022, 01:40
Zace wrote:
30 Dec 2021, 14:56
namcost wrote:
02 Dec 2021, 19:39
Okay boys and girls. I did some 240hz testing with the 3 overdrive modes (standard/advanced/ultrafast) and have given 10/90 times in a nice little chart....

https://imgur.com/a/8cVUkaQ
XG2431 240hz Timings 3 Overdrive Modes.png

These tests were done AFTER color calibration (using the custom color temp mode. 95 red, 95 green, 100 blue gave perfect d65 aka 6500 white point) and without using any of the flicker/strobing modes. Pure pixel response at 240hz using the 3 overdrive modes.

For color calibration, after calibration I got a measured average delta-e of 1.2 for all patches of color. Lowest average 90% was 0.5 and highest average 10% was 6.3. Maximum all patches (absolute worst) was 8.5 and maximum of the lowest 90% was 4.7.... overall not bad but not great. Considering the price of the monitor, its actually really good.

Compared to my Alienware 240hz (aw2418hf) this monitor is pretty nice. Granted the Alienware is a TN based monitor.... this IPS has interesting readings. Generally it seems the darker transitions are slower than brighter. Going to full 100% white from any starting point pretty much gave the best results. On the flip side, on my Alienware, going to full 100% white gave the slowest transition times.

My next testing will involve messing with the flicker backlight/strobing stuff. I don't think 240hz will offer a good enough picture. So far I get a double image no matter what. I might try 120hz and see if I can do "large vertical totals" to get a perfect image. If so, awesome. But so far, Nvidia only recognizes 3 modes, 100hz, 144hz, and 240hz. So I am going to have to make a custom resolution for 120hz.... which to me, seems odd. I would think all modes would show up like my Alienware. I am using a certified DP 1.4 cable from Club3d so I know that my cable is not the issue. So far, monitor seems nice, but I haven't tried gaming or watching movies/tv/anime yet. I figured I would hot drop my results as soon as I was done.

Let me know if anyone wants any other refresh rates tested for pixel response and with WHAT overdrive mode. Not really going to run through all 3 modes on every refresh rate possible, so if you have a specific combo of things, I can test it.

The tools used....

X-Rite i1Display PRO using their native software. I know some people will yelp about using Display Cal.... but in my personal testing, the stock X-Rite software gets closer to CALMAN software than Display Cal does. But CALMAN is outside my price range so I wont touch it.

PicoScope 2204a USB Oscilloscope and their native software. It can auto give me 10/90 or 20/80 times, I wish it had the ability to give me full 0-100 times. Maybe I can figure out how to add that in. The software is adaptable.

ThorLabs SM05PD1B Photodiode and using a ThorLabs SM to BNC cable.
Saw your amazon review and could you give exact settings on what you put for the custom resolution and strobe utility for the 120hz? And do you have icc for your calibration?
Well. For the custom resolution, you will end up doing the large veritcal totals. So if you have Nvidia, have the monitor running 240hz, and then open the custom resolution utility. Change the timings to custom. And then after that, switch the HZ to 120, and then for the vertical total, double that number. Save, test. Should work. And then running the viewsonic/blurbuster flicker calibration, tweak it until it looks good. FOR ME, that would be 15/98/15 in terms of top to bottom. Panel variance is a thing so my strobe utility settings may not work for you. I like my display a little darker so you might not like a setting of 15, you'll probably end up around 20-30. and then tweaking the second until you get the clearest image overall. you'll notice as you change the second option that the top or bottom will start having double images. for me the, top starts off with double image, and then becomes the middle, and then the bottom, and then gone. overdrive will effect things. 15 for me is best. any more and you get ghosting, and lower is no benefit.
Image

Hey, thanks for the previous reply. I also found these settings on blur. It seems the horizontal total and front porch/sync width were different.

What formula is it to change these?

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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Jan 2022, 12:51

Zace wrote:
02 Jan 2022, 02:31
What formula is it to change these?
The QFT formula is undocumented, but the most common formula is:

1. Modify the existing max-Hz timings
2. Lock the Pixel Clock (don't edit the Hz) by putting radio button on the Pixel Clock
3. Increase the Vertical Total (or via Back Porch) without changing Pixel Clock

Which is the TL;DR of the existing DIY Quick Frame Transport HOWTO.

There are some deviations, to get around some compatibility issues. For example, one person could only get down to 64 Hz, so had to then manually edit the Hz slightly lower after trying to max out steps 1-2-3 to the minimum working Hz. That still ended up becoming a valid QFT mode.
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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Jan 2022, 12:55

namcost wrote:
26 Dec 2021, 23:45
HOWEVER, AMD software is now reporting that I am running 6 bit color. Trying to change to 8 or 10 bit color, it glitches out and goes right back to 6!

LOOKING at a gradient test, it seems to be running 10bit as the gradient is smooth as hell. So I do NOT think its reading the information correctly and its incorrectly reporting 6 bit color. Perhaps throwing AMD software off because of the custom resolution.
GPUs can also take over temporal dithering, so the GPU is currently doing temporal dithering to convert 6bpc into 8-10bpc. At 240Hz the temporal action happens so quickly (alternating adjacent colors very rapidly) it is invisible.

Sometimes GPU temporal dithering is as good as panel temporal dithering, but your mileage may vary depending on the panel and the GPU capabilities -- sometimes it's a GPU driver bug.
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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Jan 2022, 12:59

Zheldorg wrote:
26 Dec 2021, 03:51
I will not draw any conclusions, but "viper 8k" always works at a frequency of 8000hz with a user interface, manual adjustment only sets the maximum number of packets per second from the ARM controller with the sensor data. Source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwf_F2VboFQ&t=173s
This is essentially correct.

Internally it's permanently running at an internal sensor read rate of 20,000Hz.

However,

(1) The number of packets per second can overload the USB chipset (if it's handling other high-Hz USB devices at the same time, like high-Hz keyboard AND high-Hz mouse using the same set of motherboard ports connected to the same USB Root Hub in Device Manager) -- adding additional mouse jitter that may be slightly worse than lower Hz (e.g. On some systems in some games, 8000Hz can be worse than 2000Hz or 4000Hz).

(2) The number of packets per second can load down the CPU (more mouse driver overhead), and reduce the frame rate of the game by roughly ~10%

To solve these problems, always use a dedicated USB chipset per high Hz device (even if you have to buy a PCIe USB card just for your Razer 8Khz) and may need to lower your mouse Hz slightly to 2000Hz or 4000Hz to get most of the benefits without frame rate loss.

No other mouse offers the choice, the Razer 8KHz is your only choice for offering good 2000Hz, 4000Hz *and* 8000Hz. So it's perfectly fine to treat the Razer 8KHz as a 2Khz or 4KHz option.
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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Jan 2022, 16:53

namcost wrote:
02 Dec 2021, 19:39
Okay boys and girls. I did some 240hz testing with the 3 overdrive modes (standard/advanced/ultrafast) and have given 10/90 times in a nice little chart....
Hello namcost...

Thank you for posting that Amazon review.

I've posted this several times before, but you might have missed this -- one thing I should mention about the 60Hz strobe mode is that many people love it while others hate it. We warn people not to enable 60Hz PureXP during Windows because high brightness makes 60Hz single-strobe very flickery.

First, cross-posting the existing disclaimer on the Blur Busters XG2431 page:
Disclaimer on Strobe Utility Page wrote:IMPORTANT: 60 Hz PureXP will have extreme flicker at Windows Desktop; discontinue use or increase refresh rate if it bothers you. 60 Hz single-strobe is recommended ONLY for retro content such as 60fps games and video (e.g. sports TV, GoPro videos, YouTube, Sonic Hedgehog, platformers & other fast-motion 60fps)
How To Properly use 60 Hz PureXP

For those who wish to use 60Hz single-strobe, make sure:
  • Adjust to a dimmer picture (50-100 nits similar to a CRT);
  • Add a little extra viewing distance;
  • Always, always increase amount of room lighting (never use 60Hz PureXP in dark room);
  • Enable only during retro content (e.g. when YouTube 60fps or console 60fps is already playing);
  • Put black boundaries around your emulator game, to shrink size of emulator image closer to CRT size;
  • Play retro material for shorter time periods;
  • Add a bias light behind the screen;
This is because:
  • Yesterday’s CRTs were small (17 inch)
  • Today’s monitors are HUGE, so 60Hz flicker is worse.
  • Yesterday’s CRTs were dim (often just 50 nits)
  • Today’s monitors are BRIGHT, so 60Hz flicker is worse.
  • Yesterday's CRTs displayed darker material
  • Today's monitors displays brighter material, so 60Hz flicker is worse.
It all compounds on each other. Even Netscape Navigator web browser in year 1994 defaulted to a gray background instead of a white background, because of CRT flicker back in those days, and a darker background mitigated eyestrain from reading bright images on a CRT tube. Today, Windows desktops are much brighter (unless you use Dark Mode). Most video games are much darker than Windows Desktop, and thus, 60Hz flicker is less of a problem in games than at Windows Desktop.

We’ve already written this warning in multiple places, even though ViewSonic opted not to include this warning in the monitor manual. So you might have missed this important part, apologies, since it was not mentioned in your Amazon review.

Mitigating Flicker With More Apples vs Apples to Yesterdays' 60 Hz CRT

Today's monitors are simply gigantic and blindingly brighter compared to yesterday's CRT tubes. Therefore, 60 Hz PureXP must be configured accordingly, properly. Avoid bright material (like Windows desktop), increase room lighting and/or dim the screen, and increase viewing distance.

Using the retro-friendly 60Hz strobe needs to be used only for the right content — for retro material, not for Windows desktop (especially if you’re not already in Dark Mode). Different people are less flicker sensitive than others, and it’s important to offer the user choice.

Depending on your comfort thresholds, properly following this steps can turn an eye-searing flicker into something comfortable/tolerable for the duration of a specific game or a specific 60fps video.

Disclaimer for 60Hz PureXP

Not everyone can tolerate 60Hz flicker even with these mitigations. Many longtimer 50-60Hz CRT users can, with the right best practices. But cease use if discomfort occurs.

I also put a disclaimer at www.blurbusters.com/xg2431 to avoid enabling low-Hz PureXP at the Microsoft Windows desktop (because bright windows is literally 10x+ more hurtful than a dark-background 8-bit scroller game). Especially in a dark room, because the screen lights up the whole room, and the whole room is flickering. So always, always, always turn on room lights whenever doing 60Hz PureXP, and add a bias light.

Some manufacturers include a warning in their menu or manual, while others do not -- Sony/Samsung/LG in the past supports single-strobe 60Hz in certain models of their TVs. Some of them published such warnings in their manual.

Sony included the warning for the interpolation free 60Hz "Motionflow Impulse" setting. However, ViewSonic did not include the warnings/information, so you might have been aware of the mitigations available.
Anecdote: I could not stand 60Hz PureXP with Microsoft Windows in Light Mode at night, but it was fine when I turned on office lighting & launched certain games or videos that particularly benefitted from 60Hz PureXP, while moving my computer chair about 6 inches further back (wireless gamepad helps since I'm now out of reach of my keyboard). Almost anything with a dark/black background works fine for me, like many retro games. The flicker was over 100x fainter. Problem solved for me.

Once I greatly decreased brightness (PureXP Ultra) and turned on the room lights, the game "Super Zaxxon" in MAME felt less nauseating for me with 60Hz PureXP. "Sonic Hedgehog" in RetroArch was similar, though I added a little screen boundary to shrink the image a bit. In fast scrollers, the motion blur eyestrain was so nauseating for me that it's worth using 60Hz PureXP for these situations, as a lesser evil.

It's funny how eye-searing flicker almost becomes negligible in fast-scrolling retro video games when set up this way.
I might, perhaps, put up a popup HOWTO built-in into the Strobe Utility, that appears when PureXP is enabled during 60 Hz.

This may perhaps help educate more people on mitigations for 60Hz PureXP during the modern era. Many people on these forums were born after 60Hz CRTs were discontinued.
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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by woland » 04 Jan 2022, 11:56

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Jan 2022, 12:59
(2) The number of packets per second can load down the CPU (more mouse driver overhead), and reduce the frame rate of the game by roughly ~10%

To solve these problems, always use a dedicated USB chipset per high Hz device (even if you have to buy a PCIe USB card just for your Razer 8Khz) and may need to lower your mouse Hz slightly to 2000Hz or 4000Hz to get most of the benefits without frame rate loss.
Can you please elaborate why a dedicated USB chipset would help with cpu load in this case?

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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Jan 2022, 16:06

woland wrote:
04 Jan 2022, 11:56
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Jan 2022, 12:59
(2) The number of packets per second can load down the CPU (more mouse driver overhead), and reduce the frame rate of the game by roughly ~10%

To solve these problems, always use a dedicated USB chipset per high Hz device (even if you have to buy a PCIe USB card just for your Razer 8Khz) and may need to lower your mouse Hz slightly to 2000Hz or 4000Hz to get most of the benefits without frame rate loss.
Can you please elaborate why a dedicated USB chipset would help with cpu load in this case?
You misunderstood...it's actually two separate unrelated tips.
  • Tip #1: USB chip workload: Plug the Razer 8KHz into its own dedicated USB chip (Make sure Razer 8KHz is the only device on its own USB Root Hub in Device Manager).
  • Tip #2: CPU workload: Use a lower mouse poll rate such as 2000Hz or 4000Hz. The 2000Hz poll rate has 90% of the benefits of 8000Hz, at only one-quarter the mouse driver CPU load (as well as lower game processing workload for mouse events)
You can do one tip or both tips at the same time.

I strongly suggest doing both tips, because 8000Hz can sometimes cause framerates to drop more than 10% on some computers in some games during a fast mouse flick turn. By using 2000Hz, you can eliminate this frame rate drop in certain games, while still having 90% of the human visible benefits of 1000Hz-vs-8000Hz

The Razer 8KHz is still amazing at 2000Hz and 4000Hz. I do use 8000Hz sometimes when the game doesn't bog with it, but computers and games are still catching up. No other mouse seems to do 2000Hz as well as the Razer 8KHz does, so the Razer 8KHz is still the defacto go-to mouse nowadays for mouse fluidity enthusiasts.

Image

Image

My eyes still can still see 2000Hz-vs-8000Hz, but 1000Hz-vs-2000Hz is much more visible than 2000Hz-vs-8000Hz, as seen in the above diagrams from the recent research paper. Definitely human visible, due to jitter between display Hz and mouse Hz (digital equivalent of beat frequency -- like how two sounds can create a low-Hz beating). But most of the benefits is 1000Hz-vs-2000Hz.
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Re: [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS] ViewSonic unveils monitors for 2021 (The new 240Hz 24" king?)

Post by Shelful » 06 Jan 2022, 21:38

masterblaster wrote:
29 Mar 2021, 18:18
I was in the market for a new 24-25" monitor and I have been narrowing my search down to a few models. I am going to have to hold out for the results of this new ViewSonic XG2431. I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Asus 8QM/9QM or maybe the XL2546K, but I am intrigued by this new ViewSonic. Cant wait to see a review on it. I really didnt want to have to wait until end of April for a new monitor, but I guess I have no choice now.
Darf ich fragen für welchen Monitor du dich entschieden hast und warum?

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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by riggles » 09 Jan 2022, 11:07

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Jan 2022, 16:53
  • Yesterday’s CRTs were small (17 inch)
  • Today’s monitors are HUGE, so 60Hz flicker is worse.
  • Yesterday’s CRTs were dim (often just 50 nits)
  • Today’s monitors are BRIGHT, so 60Hz flicker is worse.
  • Yesterday's CRTs displayed darker material
  • Today's monitors displays brighter material, so 60Hz flicker is worse.
I have to start off by saying I'm a big fan of blurbusters before I give some counter-arguments to the above. I love your guys work!

This is fairly incorrect, as an enthusiast of CRT's I own and have owned a fair amount of them. TV's and arcade monitors output 200+ nits with ease and beyond that if you really wanted to push them, this is the norm. On an Astro City for example it's a 29" CRT that you literally right in front of, even with slow scrolling content or content with static bright backgrounds, like puzzle games or some fighting games, flicker is a non-issue.

These big monitors are a lot of the time played in complete darkness by me and family and friends who visit me of all ages, never had anyone complain about noticeable flickering, except for 55Hz arcade games, where it's noticeable but passable/ignore-able.
For 60Hz you have to look away and catch it with peripheral view to actually notice the flicker. I'm also fairly sensitive to flicker as 50Hz is way too low for my eyes, and shutter glasses that are strobing 60Hz per eye are also annoying to me, same as any strobing mode I've ever used on a modern screen. I've yet to get my hands on an XG2431 though.

For PC CRT's however, 70-150 nits is the typical range depends a lot on how much it was used back in the day, however here's the interesting part. PC CRT's have very noticeable flicker at 60Hz, maybe it's due to pushing much higher resolutions, with each line drawn lasting a much shorter period on screen? This flicker largely disappears once you play content with scanline shaders in place even if you bump up the contrast to compensate for the brightness loss. (which is only really feasible on good/low use PC CRT's that can output 150 or more nits).

PC CRT's are not nice to browse or type documents on at 60Hz that's for sure. But comparable CRT TV's, games with large white areas like for example Mario Paint are not an issue in the slightest even for prolonged periods (no ABL, auto brightness limiter, enabled), my main retro gaming TV is a 28" CRT TV's that I also sit fairly close to. Very bright white and colorful content.

The platform I do most of my gaming on nowadays is the Sega Astro City as it sits right next to my desk, I use that thing for hours in both daylight and darkness, outputting just as much brightness as my LCD's. Few things outside of OLED comes close to the color output and just pop of it, with the "new" 4k hour tube I swapped in.

"displayed darker material" is also incorrect, tons of bright games out there, dark games where white isn't white are a minority and examples where devs messed up palettes, they're few and many of those games also have palette correction patches nowadays. (And some games simply expects you to adjust RGB/contrast settings, until white is white, this is especially common for arcade games).

In the end, with CRT's, there's a huge amount of quality variation, some are old and worn, others aren't worn but weren't great to begin with. Picture quality varied massively between standard def CRT's as well, even if that's not the topic of this discussion in particular.
https://i.imgur.com/emJkWRm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bdNc2aG.jpg
Lately I've been playing Twinbee Detana, a colorful game with many bright cloudy white areas.

The fact is that you absolutely can have a large display without bothersome flicker at 60Hz even for bright and static content, at least for low res content.

How is this achieved? Idk, maybe has to do with a combination of factors such as rolling scan, lower res, phosphor's not going fully black as quickly and have a transitional fade after being lit up, with a smoother transition between ON and OFF?
Who knows, but I know Blurbusters will continue to refine strobe technology and I'm still very thankful for this and hyped how far we've gotten so far.

Hope someone else who on a regular basis use big standard def CRT's can chime in on this, I know a number of people in the CRT discord who measure CRT brightness output, 300 nits is not unheard of.

Again, love seeing the progress of your work, as much as I like CRT's I also want to see modern panels capable of doing the same. A dream of mine is to one day put a 32" ~60Hz single strobe panel into a Vewlix cab.

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Re: ViewSonic XG2431 Discussion Thread [Blur Busters Approved XG2431 - 24" 240Hz IPS with Best Strobing]

Post by axaro1 » 12 Jan 2022, 09:50

There's finally a review for the XG2431!

phpBB [video]
XL2566K* | XV252QF* | LG C1* | HP OMEN X 25 | XL2546K | VG259QM | XG2402 | LS24F350[RIP]
*= currently owned



MONITOR: XL2566K custom VT: https://i.imgur.com/ylYkuLf.png
CPU: 5800x3d 102mhz BCLK
GPU: 3080FE undervolted
RAM: https://i.imgur.com/iwmraZB.png
MOUSE: Endgame Gear OP1 8k
KEYBOARD: Wooting 60he

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