New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

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Argus
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Joined: 06 May 2021, 17:07

New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

Post by Argus » 12 Jun 2021, 10:40

For some reason after I reinstalled windows 8.1 today, my monitor is now permanently jittery no matter what I do. I have no idea what happened but now it's just significantly worse than before. There was much more obvious microstutter despite settings being the same as previous installs and various nvidia driver version were properly cleaned and reinstalled. I tried Windows 10 OS and I had the exact same type of framelag/microtearing on the desktop and in-games no matter what.

I reset my motherboard, reset OS, reset all the bios settings, reinstalled multiple different OS multiple times, tried a new display port cable, tried re-seating GPU, etc. nothing I do works. I now have a permanently worse microstutter for no apparent reason with the exact same setup as before I had it. There isn't even a display port on my motherboard so I couldn't be using intel graphics. I tried different nvidia drivers ranging from 300 series to the latest 400 series. I even tried plugging into different outlets but no difference. I reset my monitor to factory settings too. I tried turning off G-sync and using fixed refresh and I tried different refresh rates but it still feels horrible.

No matter what I do, my mouse is jittery and I get random micro tears and micro stutters in EVERYTHING. Even when I just scroll up and down the blur buster forums, I get noticeable horizontal micro tears.

It's ironic because I upgrade from my X99 system to avoid bad frame times and micro stutter only for it to be worse on my new 10850K system. I'm just so tired of it all. 5 years spent trying to diagnose this issue, thousands of dollars down the drain, multiple PC systems built and tested and no matter what I do I cannot get true frame smoothness and not only that, it just now randomly gets significantly worse than ever before for no apparent reason so now I wish I hadn't chased it so hard and got a new system. IDK what I did to deserve this.

My 8 year old 60hz laptop with an 760m feels and looks smoother than my current 144hz G-sync setup with a GTX 1080. Even though the mouse is obviously slower since it's 60hz, it feels infinitely more consistent and smoother and there are NO hints of any micro tearing or stuttering at all whatsoever. 60 fps on that laptop feels so amazing natural and smooth compared to my 144hz G-sync setup even with no framedrops. Even just watching videos on chrome and browsing feel infinitely smoother on the laptop. Any lagginess on the laptop comes solely from the fact that it is a 60hz laptop and not whatever weirdness is plaguing my desktop setup. It just feels right despite having lower refresh rate and I don't get nauseous when looking at it, unlike desktop setup which makes me nauseous with headaches after awhile regardless of which refresh rate I use. I don't know what's going on anymore and I'm so desperate for help.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Jun 2021, 14:14

1. What monitor are you using? About 1%-5% have a frameskipping issue that requires some tweaks.

2. Did you try complete graphics driver uninstall/reinstall?

3. Are you using multimonitor? Try disabling all monitors and/or making 144Hz the primary. Different-Hz multimonitor is a big problem.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Argus
Posts: 9
Joined: 06 May 2021, 17:07

Re: New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

Post by Argus » 12 Jun 2021, 14:53

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
12 Jun 2021, 14:14
1. What monitor are you using? About 1%-5% have a frameskipping issue that requires some tweaks.

2. Did you try complete graphics driver uninstall/reinstall?

3. Are you using multimonitor? Try disabling all monitors and/or making 144Hz the primary. Different-Hz multimonitor is a big problem.
1. Dell sd2716dg

2. I used DDU for every driver install session

3. Just single monitor

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Re: New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 13 Jun 2021, 17:14

Hmm. Strange. Could be in major part due to Windows 8.1 quirks and/or interactions with the S2716DG behaviors.

1. Can you photograph www.testufo.com/frameskipping please? (camera, not screenshot) ... Try to capture at least 10-20 bright squares, so if photographing with a smartphone, you may need to dim your monitor's brightness to force the camera to a longer exposure to allow capturing more squares.

2. As a reference (to rule out regular cyclic processing spikes), can you screenshot www.testufo.com/animation-time-graph ?

The patterns I see in these two tests is a good troubleshooter for me, since it can rule out certain causes of microstutters (erratic squares-gap pattern, regular squares-gap pattern).

____

Also, a rant about Windows 8.1 holdouts and priorities in general:

You might have to bite the bullet and use Windows 10 combined with 240Hz+ IPS to solve your headaches. Even though apples-vs-apples 8.1 is faster than 10 for 60Hz, but when you're faced with "8.1 60Hz" versus "Windows 10 240Hz VRR", the latter wins out in motion ergonomics thanks to the overkill extra refresh-rate-race features outweighing the Windows 10 imperfections.

Windows 10 just has way better support for multiple kinds of high-Hz technologies, and 240Hz+ IPS solves a lot more display-nausea issues than yesteryear 144Hz TN -- even if you're not doing gaming, 240Hz has 1/4th the web browser scrolling motion blur of 60Hz. Double Hz = half scrolling motion blur. And today, 240Hz IPS eliminates a lot of yesteryear compromises of high-Hz LCDs. There are even wide-color-gamut 240Hz 1440p IPS options today too!

For mice, a Razer 8KHz viper configured to 2000Hz is quite super smooth even to a nongamer who's super-sensitive to stutters. You want your mouse poll rate at least 6x higher than display Hz, to avoid the beat-frequency/harmonic effects between display Hz and mouse Hz, if you are super-sensitive to mouse-pointer stuttering.

Also, higher Hz reduces lag, compensating for a lot of Windows 10 lag. 240Hz means even 60fps frames refresh in 1/240sec!

A possible prescription for you is Windows 10 + 1440p 240Hz IPS monitor + Razer 8Khz Viper mouse (configured to 2000Hz poll rate for more universal game/app compatibility). This should fix a lot of your lag+stutter sources without requiring a computer tower upgrade.

Yes, Windows 10 is worse (lag-wise) in some ways in an apples-vs-apples, but you can raise some metrics to compensate for some of Windows 10 metrics. Stop suffering Windows 8.1 (and wasting hardware money just to stay with Windows 8.1) and just simply do it. The compromises have now built up to the point where Windows 10 is superior lag-wise and smoothness-wise if you throw sufficient overkill GPU/display/mouse to it to compensate. You don't necessarily need to optimize apples-vs-apples (144Hz vs 144Hz), and you said you spent thousands of dollars -- why not spend it in the right places? You can overkill a bit to punch the Windows 10 disadvantages a bit, and get what you need.

Also, the "You don't need 240Hz" garbage elsewhere on the Internet doesn't recognize the fact that some magazine writers like PCMagazine has now acknowledged even 300Hz+ is now useful for general purpose use, nongamers and others, because of reduced scrolling motion blur in web browsers, etc. Modern screen use is a lot of scrolling, whether browsers or shuffling through Netflix carousels, or other screen motion. High Hz helps that quite a bit (and noticeable to most as long as a geometric upgrade curve is followed; 60 -> 120 -> 240 - >480, or 60 -> 144 -> 360). High Hz is no longer for just esports after all, and some prevailing advice is a bit suboptimal when some of us has legitimate stutter/motionblur nausea and display motionsickness.

After all, some of us are medically afflicted with motion sickness with displays -- and some people found out that going 240Hz+ fixes some of their past issues, even for casual-gamers and non-gamers. Getting suddenly motionsick when merely scrolling a web browser -- that is NOT fun! Some people come to Blur Busters as a beacon of hope, and I've helped quite a few to a better display journey.

But first, let's attempt to diagnose your current problem.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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Re: New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 17 Jun 2021, 00:51

Argus wrote:
12 Jun 2021, 14:53
1. Dell sd2716dg

2. I used DDU for every driver install session

3. Just single monitor
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
13 Jun 2021, 17:14
Hmm. Strange. Could be in major part due to Windows 8.1 quirks and/or interactions with the S2716DG behaviors.

1. Can you photograph www.testufo.com/frameskipping please? (camera, not screenshot) ... Try to capture at least 10-20 bright squares, so if photographing with a smartphone, you may need to dim your monitor's brightness to force the camera to a longer exposure to allow capturing more squares.

2. As a reference (to rule out regular cyclic processing spikes), can you screenshot www.testufo.com/animation-time-graph ?

The patterns I see in these two tests is a good troubleshooter for me, since it can rule out certain causes of microstutters (erratic squares-gap pattern, regular squares-gap pattern).
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
13 Jun 2021, 17:14
But first, let's attempt to diagnose your current problem.
Any update?
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Argus
Posts: 9
Joined: 06 May 2021, 17:07

Re: New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

Post by Argus » 26 Jun 2021, 09:22

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
17 Jun 2021, 00:51
Argus wrote:
12 Jun 2021, 14:53
1. Dell sd2716dg

2. I used DDU for every driver install session

3. Just single monitor
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
13 Jun 2021, 17:14
Hmm. Strange. Could be in major part due to Windows 8.1 quirks and/or interactions with the S2716DG behaviors.

1. Can you photograph www.testufo.com/frameskipping please? (camera, not screenshot) ... Try to capture at least 10-20 bright squares, so if photographing with a smartphone, you may need to dim your monitor's brightness to force the camera to a longer exposure to allow capturing more squares.

2. As a reference (to rule out regular cyclic processing spikes), can you screenshot www.testufo.com/animation-time-graph ?

The patterns I see in these two tests is a good troubleshooter for me, since it can rule out certain causes of microstutters (erratic squares-gap pattern, regular squares-gap pattern).
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
13 Jun 2021, 17:14
But first, let's attempt to diagnose your current problem.
Any update?




Sorry for the delay, I forgot to setup email notifications when I posted.

I installed Windows 10 about two weeks ago and it initially had terrible lag but for some reason, windows 10 decided to do a disk repair upon startup randomly. (It occurred a few days into using Windows 10, I have no idea what triggered it). Afterwards, the lag seemed to be improved to where it was no longer obviously stuttery but still not perfect as years before. It's good enough to be able to play games without noticing but I still cannot help but feel it is not as perfect as before. For example when I played Dota 2 on my old X99 system with "perfect" g-sync/framepracing it was mesmerizing and I'd often lose focus in teamfights just to stare at moving projectiles and character animations because of how smooth they were. On my current Windows 10 setup, they are still smooth but they are not mesmerizing if that makes any sense. Even 60fps locked games (which became 60Hz because of G-sync) felt mesmerizing. Currently, 60hz locked games give me a bit of motion sickness.

As for the camera/screenshots I have a screenshot for the animation time graph.
Animation Timing Graph.PNG
Animation Timing Graph.PNG (11.39 KiB) Viewed 341 times

Something to note is that it was initially more jittery and had wider variance until I opened a youtube video in a new tab. For some reason, having twitch streams and youtube videos or similar things in the background can sometimes make framepacing feel smoother for me. I tried using a voltage lock trick in MSI afterburner to get the GPU to have consistent voltage and clocks but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

As for the frameskipping squares, I could not get more than 3-4 to appear at a time in my camera shots. There also seemed to be "gaps" or empty squares showing up on my smartphone camera before taking a picture. I will try getting more pictures and screenshots for this soon.

I thought about purchasing a high polling rate mouse but I get this same framelag issue in some games when playing with a controller or when there is no camera movement (camera movement makes it more noticeable). I currently have a G502 set at 1000hz polling rate and 1600 DPI.

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Re: New Framelag after OS reinstall that won't go away

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Jun 2021, 19:36

Browsers (Animation time graph) is very sensitive to power management, so adding processing can increase precision somewhat. Try disabling power management settings wherever you find them, anything that makes the GPU / CPU idle for a few milliseconds - will often jitter up the frame pacing.

Use Performance Plan + CPU 100% when frame pacing precision is critical.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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