ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

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Naveronasis
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ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Naveronasis » 01 Dec 2021, 05:10

I have a Samsung 4k quantum dot monitor and the color is amazing. But the motion blur is awful. I know the older ViewSonic have been well received. I'm not too worried about 240hz or anything like that but the crosstalk is just too awful on my Samsung, even slow games like Rimworld or Factorio are just too distracting to play on it. I'm mostly worried about a clean motion image with little to no cross talk than I am about ABSOLUTE PERFECTION. Is it going to work out for me? Or is it known to have crosstalk or micro-stutter problems?

And now several disclaimers because I love you guys but I know how you can be lol:
If I want to play ultra-high-speed twitchy games with 0 motion blur I literally own like 25 PC monitors including a W900. So don't waste time trying to convince me I need a different 200+hz monitor.
My Samsung is 32" and I want to use it as a matching side monitor so anything under 30 is probably a no-go.
Ultrawide is no go.
Curved is no go.
I know the various causes of micro stutter and how to avoid them (running under cap, or machine the display's rated FPS, game settings) I just want to know IF this monitor is flexible enough to say run.... 120hz without a crosstalk problem. Not a technical document on micro stutter.

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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 06 Dec 2021, 01:43

Nobody has replied, so I will now chime in...
Naveronasis wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 05:10
I have a Samsung 4k quantum dot monitor and the color is amazing. But the motion blur is awful. I know the older ViewSonic have been well received. I'm not too worried about 240hz or anything like that but the crosstalk is just too awful on my Samsung, even slow games like Rimworld or Factorio are just too distracting to play on it. I'm mostly worried about a clean motion image with little to no cross talk than I am about ABSOLUTE PERFECTION. Is it going to work out for me? Or is it known to have crosstalk or micro-stutter problems?
XG320Q is currently not the best in motion blur reduction, though it may be close to the best for 30 inch size and up. NVIDIA ULMB is usually the gold standard when no other options are available.

Sorry to be the bearer of the bad news: I can confirm (as of Dec 2021) that unfortunately, there is no zero-crosstalk options above ~27 inches at the moment. I would also avoid the ones with the KSF backlight phosphor (red ghosting during strobing), due to www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor

If you don't mind losing a few inches, you may consider purchasing the XG2431 and strobe-tuning with a Quick Frame Transport mode (a large vertical total where VBI is about 3x bigger than visible resolution) it to allow a large >10 millisecond blanking interval that completely hides LCD GtG slowness from human eyes in total darkness between strobe flashes. Most strobe backlights only use 1-2ms VBIs with standard GMT, CVT or CVT-R EDID rather than custom QFT EDID, while using XG2431+QFT can achieve VBIs exceeding 10 milliseconds, large enough to hide LCD GtG100% most color combinations of some panels. Though QFT is not PnP (you have to create the QFT mode), it does allow perfect zero-crosstalk LCD strobe modes.

In my current experience, no LCD gets less crosstalk than a well-tuned Viewsonic XG2431.
It's finally available in significant quantities on Amazon since Black Friday.

Zero Crosstalk Strobing Requires Refresh Rate Headroom (Underclocking An LCD Refresh Rate)
CRT afficanados should NOT strobe at max Hz. You need at least 2:1, 3:1 or even 4:1 refresh rate headroom, combined with QFT modes (ultra long blanking intervals) to get zero-crosstalk strobing. So you must absolutely to strobe a 240Hz LCD at 120Hz, or even 100Hz, or 85Hz or less.

Perfect zero duplicate images, much more CRT motion clarity.

In addition -- since I've seen thousands of LCDs and know which ones get more CRT-perfect -- also, have you tried a Quest 2 VR LCD, or a Valve Index VR LCD? They're also crosstalkless strobed LCDs with less motion blur than a Sony FW900 CRT tube -- and crosstalk is measured below human visible noisefloor (<0.3% = completely invisible = less than difference of RGB(254,254,254) versus RGB(255,255,255)). Poor blacks, but lower persistence than CRT and true real-world measured 0.3ms MPRT from complete off leading edge thru complete off trailing edge (and no phosphor trails = less motion artifact than CRT tube).

When I chart all the LCDs on a graph, only 0.1% of LCDs I've seen can get clearer motion than CRTs at certain strobe tuning settings when properly re-tuned after a warm-up and break-in period. Unfortunately I have never found a 30-inch-and-bigger zero-crosstalk strobed LCD (yet).

BTW, I enjoyed a lot of time on my NEC XG135 CRT projector, and knew how to calibrate it well like an ISF technician. I was the moderator of AVSCIENCE Home Theater Computers Forum in year 1999. So I KNOW how good CRT can get.
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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 06 Dec 2021, 02:08

Naveronasis wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 05:10
So don't waste time trying to convince me I need a different 200+hz monitor.
Many readers read these forums, and make incorrect assumptions, so for other readers being misled by this.

And even manufacturers too (we need 240Hz+ 30" LCDs now)

<Public Service Announcement>

Few Reviewers Know This, But Laws of LCD Physics Means Zero Crosstalk Strobing Requires "Underclocking" A High-Hz LCD

Image

When I use custom 60Hz VT4500 QFT mode on a 240Hz panel, plus a careful strobe re-tuning, I can get strobe crosstalk as low as 0.05% on some panels such as XG2431 -- one-twentieth of 1% -- far below human visibility!

Technological Reason: More time for LCD GtG pixel response to finish unseen in dark period between faster-scanning refresh cycles

An LCD That Emulates a CRT Better, Is A High-Hz LCD Run at Low Hz, And Properly Strobe Tuned

TL;DR: For Lower Crosstalk, Refresh Rate Headroom Is Critical

</Public Service Announcement>

(Just so forum members don't get confused)
(Just so manufacturers realize we need 240Hz+ 30" LCDs too)

175Hz LCDs run at 120Hz still can't have VBI's longer than ((175-120)/175ths) of (1/120sec) = only 2.6 milliseconds of blanking interval to hide LCD GtG between refresh cycles. (Excluding the strobe flash). So if you wanted 1ms MPRT, you only have 1.6 milliseconds to finish LCD GtG100% before a 1 millisecond strobe flash. Very few LCDs can tolerate VBIs longer than 10ms (e.g. XG2431), necessary for zero-crosstalk operation at low refresh rates. Even 1ms GtG still takes 10ms real-world sometimes.

I really want to see more manufacturers release zero-crosstalk LCDs, but that requires huge amount of excess refresh rate headroom, to create the necessary >10ms+ VBIs necessary to hide pixel transition completely from human detection thresholds.

Now, faster scanouts are welcome -- a 360Hz LCD with custom timings can scanout a 120Hz refresh cycle in 1/360sec as an example (first to last pixel begins their GtG transitions with a time delta of only 2.7ms). So two-thirds of 1/120sec becomes (5.5 milliseconds) available for hiding LCD GtG away from human eyes -- much more reasonable. And if you bump refresh rate down to 100Hz, then over 7.3 milliseconds become available to hide LCD GtG. So the lower the Hz, the more time to hide LCD pixel response slowness between eyes.

Unfortunately many LCDs don't let you re-tune the strobe properly -- so you're stuck with a bit of crosstalk. We also need more LCDs to support end-user strobe tuning.

Vertical crosstalk differences (worse at top/bottom, better at centre) is simply a math function of the time differential between LCD scanout versus global backlight flash (different GtG completion times in total darknesses for different pixels).

The bottom line is we need to demand to manufacturers, HIGHER HZ LCDs to get zero-crosstalk at lower Hz!
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Naveronasis
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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Naveronasis » 08 Dec 2021, 11:38

Yeah I agree basically. 32" is ideal for writers and some certain art applications because at 100% on a 4k monitor a sheet of paper is 1:1 on screen (not accounting for dpi) so it's great for planning out fliers and print outs for readability at a distance. Also it's small enough to put on a desk but big enough to sit back with a controller or some local multiplayer.

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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 08 Dec 2021, 14:18

Yeah, sorry to be bearer of bad news for that size class. Though that size class is now much better than it was 3 years ago. Things are (slowly) getting better for LCDs.

It wasn’t long ago that strobe crosstalk finally fell below human-visibility thresholds on the best strobed LCDs driven at their best strobe tuning settings (especially after unit-specific strobe retuning).

LightBoost from ten years ago only almost (barely) achieved that at a great cost to color quality, but today we can now out-LightBoost (full zero crosstalk) without the color degradation. Then it was many years before LCDs finally out-LightBoosted LightBoost, with less crosstalk than even LightBoost (old gold standard), but without the color disadvantages of LightBoost.

Today’s on-the-market pickings are still ultra-slim for true zero-crosstalk strobe (say, below ~0.5%, aka GTG 99.5% complete).

The panel you chose is one of the best at its size class though, if you use one of NVIDIA’s lower-Hz ULMB setting. Still has some visible crosstalk, but not nearly as bad as majority of LCD HDTVs (40” and larger).

But motion clarity nuts — CRT snobs — be prepared to be dissapointed with 90%+ of >60Hz LCDs — especially at max-Hz strobing. If you include 60Hz LCDs, then you’ll be disappointed at 99.9% of LCDs. Strobe tuning is still (on average) crappy throughout the industry.
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Naveronasis
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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Naveronasis » 11 Dec 2021, 14:38

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
08 Dec 2021, 14:18
Yeah, sorry to be bearer of bad news for that size class. Though that size class is now much better than it was 3 years ago. Things are (slowly) getting better for LCDs.

It wasn’t long ago that strobe crosstalk finally fell below human-visibility thresholds on the best strobed LCDs driven at their best strobe tuning settings (especially after unit-specific strobe retuning).

LightBoost from ten years ago only almost (barely) achieved that at a great cost to color quality, but today we can now out-LightBoost (full zero crosstalk) without the color degradation. Then it was many years before LCDs finally out-LightBoosted LightBoost, with less crosstalk than even LightBoost (old gold standard), but without the color disadvantages of LightBoost.

Today’s on-the-market pickings are still ultra-slim for true zero-crosstalk strobe (say, below ~0.5%, aka GTG 99.5% complete).

The panel you chose is one of the best at its size class though, if you use one of NVIDIA’s lower-Hz ULMB setting. Still has some visible crosstalk, but not nearly as bad as majority of LCD HDTVs (40” and larger).

But motion clarity nuts — CRT snobs — be prepared to be dissapointed with 90%+ of >60Hz LCDs — especially at max-Hz strobing. If you include 60Hz LCDs, then you’ll be disappointed at 99.9% of LCDs. Strobe tuning is still (on average) crappy throughout the industry.
I haven't chose anything yet, but if I bought one and ran it at 60fps would there be considerably less crosstalk?

Naveronasis
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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Naveronasis » 25 Dec 2021, 01:48

Okay well, in the name of science I bought the 1080p 27 240hz viewsonic elite. I got one that is supposedly damaged, but the screen should be fine. It was only about 200 bucks. This will allow me to make my own comparisons with my CRT monitors and I look forward to uploading some stuff but I really am looking for something better color and resolution-wise.

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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by videshik2 » 30 Dec 2021, 07:35

Hi .. thank you for sharing this :)

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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 30 Dec 2021, 13:23

Naveronasis wrote:
25 Dec 2021, 01:48
Okay well, in the name of science I bought the 1080p 27 240hz viewsonic elite. I got one that is supposedly damaged, but the screen should be fine. It was only about 200 bucks. This will allow me to make my own comparisons with my CRT monitors and I look forward to uploading some stuff but I really am looking for something better color and resolution-wise.
I look forward to seeing your comaprisions — although the 27” monitor does not support Blur Busters Strobe Utility for further improvements, it’s still a well-tuned panel.

Some tips:

For XG270 specifically, you will want to use 224Hz or less to kick in proper overdrive tuning for the strobing, and some people find 119.0Hz produce better quality on their panel than 120Hz does. On this particular panel, Large Vertical Total doesn’t reduce crosstalk any further so you can skip those tricks because it’s already buffering the slow-scan signal for a fast-scan to the panel. So a simple factory 120Hz mode or a CRU-created 119Hz mode will be a good basis of comparision for CRT. You can strobe as low as 75Hz, but can’t strobe at 60Hz due to a hardware-based cap on minimum strobe Hz that is not as low as XG2431 — I hadn’t yet convinced ViewSonic to lower the min-Hz strobe limitation until the XG2431 came out.
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Re: ViewSonic ELITE XG320Q

Post by Naveronasis » 31 Dec 2021, 00:26

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
30 Dec 2021, 13:23
Naveronasis wrote:
25 Dec 2021, 01:48
Okay well, in the name of science I bought the 1080p 27 240hz viewsonic elite. I got one that is supposedly damaged, but the screen should be fine. It was only about 200 bucks. This will allow me to make my own comparisons with my CRT monitors and I look forward to uploading some stuff but I really am looking for something better color and resolution-wise.
I look forward to seeing your comaprisions — although the 27” monitor does not support Blur Busters Strobe Utility for further improvements, it’s still a well-tuned panel.

Some tips:

For XG270 specifically, you will want to use 224Hz or less to kick in proper overdrive tuning for the strobing, and some people find 119.0Hz produce better quality on their panel than 120Hz does. On this particular panel, Large Vertical Total doesn’t reduce crosstalk any further so you can skip those tricks because it’s already buffering the slow-scan signal for a fast-scan to the panel. So a simple factory 120Hz mode or a CRU-created 119Hz mode will be a good basis of comparison for CRT. You can strobe as low as 75Hz, but can’t strobe at 60Hz due to a hardware-based cap on minimum strobe Hz that is not as low as XG2431 — I hadn’t yet convinced ViewSonic to lower the min-Hz strobe limitation until the XG2431 came out.
Well it's here, I tried it... without pureXP it's still pretty ghosty. With PureXP it's very clear, but still some tiny bit of visible crosstalk. Nothing that would disturb even me, but it's still there. The Optoma DLP 240HZ does an equivalently good job... if not better. I still prefer tube but this is getting into the realm of not being meaningfully worse. Tubes still have some ghosting in high contrast areas that leaves trails behind, though they don't really reduce motion clarity because they only affect nearly black parts of the screen. Just like how the minor or whatever on the 27XG isn't going to cause a significant problem either... I think as much as I want to keep it... I'm going to send it, use my toobs, and hope microled becomes affordable before the tubes all die. (since that should be 40-50 years from now, I don't think it will be a problem)

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