60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Discussion about 120fps HFR as well as future Ultra HFR (240fps, 480fps and 1000fps) playing back in real time on high refresh rate displays. See Ultra HFR HOWTO for bleeding edge experimentation.
CameraTraveler27
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60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by CameraTraveler27 » 24 Oct 2020, 17:50

Hello I'm trying to upconvert a 60hz video feed to 120Hz in order to display it on a 17.3" portable gaming monitor (I would love to convert it all the way up to 144hz or 165hz as the monitor can go up to 165Hz but I know that is not common and thus unlikely so I'm willing to settle for 120hz.)

I understand some of the newer TV's have a "game mode" that have a very low latency algorithm for frame interpolation built in. For my purposes, anything under (but definitely no more than 30ms) is good enough. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any portable monitors that have good "frame interpolation" already built into them either. Is that correct?

Also I can't use my computer to do the realtime frame interpolation before it's sent to the monitor as I need to send it the portable monitor Wirelessly and, while my 5Ghz, no compression/no latency long range video transmitter and receiver are powerful, they cap out at 60fps.

This seems to me that the frame interpolation has to happen after it's been transmitted and gone thru the video receiver attached to the portable monitor BUT before it goes into the monitor to be displayed.

I'm wondering if a tiny 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter exists? Or if I can pull the board responsible for it out of one of those TVs and put it in it's own tiny project box and make my own in-line solution. I believe this is one of those board - albeit from a much larger TV.
http://www.ebaystores.com/ElecRealm/The ... D-LED.html

Thoughts? Alternative solutions?

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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 24 Oct 2020, 19:20

Video File Based Method (Success)
If you can use video file based sources, don't bother with converters. You can actually do it with a software-based 60-to-120 upconverter such as www.svp-team.com .... If you're careful, you can even use a compact laptop with sufficiently powerful GPU, and have a mobile converter.

It can even upconvert to 240Hz too, though requires a really powerful GPU for that (a Razer RTX gaming laptop will be able to do it).

Also, why a portable gaming monitor? Why not a gaming laptop? I can run www.svp-team.org on my 240Hz Razer Blade laptop and enjoy 240fps UltraHFR frame-rate-amplification from 60fps sources, with near CRT-clarity motion for stuff such as RedBull Air Races or Ski Racing.

This 17.3" Razer Blade and this 15" Razer Blade both have enough GPU horsepower to realtime framerate-amplify 60fps sports video material into 240fps with an attending 75% reduction in motion blur during watching high-speed sports footage such as POV cameras.

You definitely want a fast-shutter speed that is faster than the refreshtime, in order to benefit significantly from frame rate amplification without nauseating soap opera effect headaches, you need full frame rate video + fast camera shutter faster than the display Hz to prevent soap opera effect nausea.

Real Time Method for External Video Capture (Works)
Use a cheap compression-based HDMI 60fps USB video capture dongle capable of piping video filter systems (e.g. ffdshow). Just run svp-team.org on that workflow. Not all dongles will work though, so some experimentation may be needed until you've got a reprocessor-friendly video capture. Test software such as ffdshow to do things like sharpening and brightening, or test SVP-project to see if it executes frame rate amplification on the livestream from your video capture.
Choose a well recommended Twitch streamer's 1080p 60fps HDMI capture device for this:
(External Video) -> (60fps video capture via Thunderbolt/USB) -> (High-Hz screen, laptop, or external gaming monitor configured as primary moitor) -> (SVP framerate-amplified video)

Real Time Method for Windows Desktop Material (Untested)
Heck, I think with a little more jerryrigging, you might even be able to framerate-amplify the Windows Desktop too, allowing interpolation for your games and other content, but that will probably require Rube Goldberg setup work such as using Twitch streamer software capturing your laptop screen (at 60Hz) and DirectShow streaming to an external 120Hz monitor through the SVP filter. But first, make sure you use two 60Hz monitors, and make sure you can do video compressed streaming from one screen to the other on the same multimonitor system. Once you successfully do that, you can SVP-team.org to frame-rate-amplify the mirrored display to 120fps or 240fps from your 60fps screen. There will be latency though. Heck, you might be able to hook a capture card and capture external HDMI sources, so your workflow becomes (Razer Laptop Screen at same Hz as external monitor, 120Hz or 240Hz) -> (Use desktop-capture software normally used for gamestreaming, but one that supports 120fps or 240fps screen-recording-and-streaming) -> (Loopback the stream on 2nd Monitor at 120Hz or 240Hz through SVP-Project pipeline) -> (SVP framerate-amplified video). And you can do it cordlessly. One tricky issue is the mixed-Hz multimonitor, so keep Hz in sync on both screens even if you capture 30fps or 60fps.

This pipeline is currently untested, but sections have succeeded, since I am aware that Twitch supports the OBS+120fps streaming pipeline. Choose OBS software running at 120fps (or undocumented 240fps tweak) for this.

However, this part is currently untested:
(Loopback the stream locally on 2nd Monitor at 120Hz or 240Hz through SVP-Project pipeline) -> (framerate-amplified video)

it's a matter of testing the whole Rube Goldberg cascade. If you do MacGyver such a Rube Goldberg frame rate amplification setup -- there are now many theoretical ways to do so -- please do make sure you use huge amounts of GPU such as an RTX card and a laptop capable of running at the same refresh rate as the external display (due to the Windows mixed-Hz multimonitor issue). GPU-based software frame rate amplification is very GPU-hungry at creating 240fps UltraHFR from 60fps material

You don't want to stream outwards online and then back to your computer, because of all those compression artifacts. You'll want to use the highest bitrate possible and loopback locally so that the video can be crammed through the SmoothVideoProject (SVP) interpolation-based frame rate amplification.

It's a possible way to framerate-amplify PC games, provided you can tolerate the latency of SVP. Just be prepared with the most powerful RTX you can afford because you will need gigantic amounts of real-time video processing power.

There are other pipelines (3 or 4 candidate pipelines) that may work for desktop-based frame rate amplification, so if any of the pipelines work, please post here. It will often require gluing together multiple software packages to daisychain it all into what you need it to do.
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CameraTraveler27
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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by CameraTraveler27 » 25 Oct 2020, 12:33

Just to clarify, I wish I could have just solve this with software and simply sent it to my portable monitor but as I need to have that signal over a 5Gz wireless video transmitter and receiver system, I'm limited to it's 60fps cap.

As to why I don't just use a gaming laptop instead of a portable gaming monitor, it's a complicated and very case specific reason but essentially I need it to have the form factor and lightweight of a large handheld tablet but the full RTX 3080 GPU computing power of a desktop and all it's I/O. I also need a bit of physical range between the two - thus the 5Gz no compression/no latency wireless video system was added.

With all this said and the fact I need to keep the tablet as light and portable as possible (under 4lbs), it seems I need real time solution that is located on the tablet between the video receiver and the monitor. Likely some kind of tiny inline hardware solution (a dongle or dedicated board taken from a LCD TV, or ???)

CameraTraveler27
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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by CameraTraveler27 » 25 Oct 2020, 15:29

*** When I say "tablet", I'm more referring to the form factor and how it's held and used but in fact it's actually a battery powered portable gaming monitor (no CPU/GPU)

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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Oct 2020, 23:29

CameraTraveler27 wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 15:29
(no CPU/GPU)
You may be dead in the water

No ticket, no entry: No horsepower payment, no entry to the custom framerate-amplify club -- You kinda need something like a GPU (even if it's a Raspberry PI style thingy) or some other powerful processor to framerate-amplify. A.k.a. "Dedicated Hardware Converter or Board". If you're not building a custom solution, you'll have to cobble together at least something ultra lightweight solution using publicly available stuff.

As there are no known miniature off-the-shelf 120fps adaptor-style interpolators available, your choices are essentially:
1. Build a custom electronics board by paying a electronics engineering company ($$$$$$$$$$$$$); or
2. Cobble tiny device with commodity mini PCs running Windows or Linux ($$$ + Time Testing)
3. Start over again and switch to something else ($$$ + Quicker Testing)

The 120 Hz iPad Option + WiFi 6 sub-30ms

Another alternative is the 120Hz iPads as low-latency streaming viewers.

They run 120fps HFR just perfectly fine, including streams. Stream using OBS, and watch the stream on 120Hz iPads using the lowest-latency 5GHz WiFi 6 access point you can afford (~2ms roundtrip ping full duplex!), possibly using a dedicated stream player app. I also now have an Oculus Quest 2 and it's amazingly low latency, wirelessly streaming compressed video (via WiFi 6) from my PC to the headset, so latency of even mobile-GPU decompressors are nowadays fast enough to decompress video streams in a sub-30ms latency budget. It's more laggy than an Original Rift, but the fact that you can WiFi stream video in a sub-30ms budget today (via WiFi 6), means it's now practical.

The 120Hz iPad flash memory is >1 gigabytes/sec (SSD speed flash memory), displays FAST.COM/Speedtest.net numbers of >600 Mbps, and is capable of decoding >100 megabit/sec lightly compressed video at 120 frames per second, so the iPad GPU/CPU performance envelope can do it. I think the Twitch app works, but I don't know how laggy Twitch is. The latency and quality envelope may meet your requirement.

You may not be able to use your building's WiFi, but you could have a dedicated WiFi 6 router in your room, to do the ultralowlatency 120fps video streaming. Sub-30ms streaming is not a problem for WiFi 6 with your own custom app. The 2ms WiFi latency gives you 28ms compressed-video window using ultrashallow-buffer low-latency video codecs (like those used by Google Stadia or Oculus Quest 2). Full duplex WiFi 6, using MU-MIMO configuration (like those 8-antenna tarantula gaming routers), can do low-latency streaming to a few devices in the same room even without an Internet connection (if you write your own iPad app for example).

Recommended Sequence
1. Borrow 120 Hz iPad and a WiFi 6 router
2. Test-stream 120fps Video File via commodity streaming apps (Twitch, Steam Link, etc)
2a... To see if they support 120fps (Steam Link does!)
2b... To see if latency budget is within requirements
3. Failing this, write your own iPad app that uses ultrashallow-buffer techniques used for gamestreaming.

Write your own Frame Rate Amplification Application

If your source is 60fps, framerate-amplify it first before streaming. You're offboarding the framerate amplification away from the viewing devices. Alternatively, if you're an advanced iPad programmer, write GPU shader to framerate-amplify 60fps tream into 120fps in iPad's GPU.

There is enough GPU processing power in an iPad GPU to do interpolation if you code an app to do framerate amplification, with the help of open-source libraries such as GPUImage. You can do it if you're skilled enough, the GPU in a 120Hz iPad is more than powerful enough to do MotionFlow-like interpolation. But this will require a fair bit of programming skill.
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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by CameraTraveler27 » 26 Oct 2020, 17:57

I have a WiFi 6 router and I like the idea of streaming over that but, worried about the range. I need 200-300ft from the router (no walls) and while I had considered the iPad for it's beautiful 120Hz 12.9" screen, I need to give the viewer a wider, more immersive FOV and 17.3" is barely wide enough while still being light at under 2lbs. The only tablets of that screen size that have horsepower are 2-n-1 laptops at over $2000 plus they are around 5lbs+ in hand...Damn.

This is why I had hoped purchasing a $25 tiny, prebuilt, dedicated 60Hz >120Hz frame converter board originally intended as a replacement part for a larger LCD TV might work as, not only is it small and extremely light but it even runs off the same battery power as my portable LCD gaming monitor (5V@3A)...but, while you never said it wouldn't work, you did say "to forget about it". Before I give up on the idea and move in another direction, could you confirm that you have reason to believe these boards just can't be repurposed in this way. I'm getting ready to return the screen before the 30 days is up if I know it won't be successful.

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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Oct 2020, 19:31

CameraTraveler27 wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 17:57
This is why I had hoped purchasing a $25 tiny, prebuilt, dedicated 60Hz >120Hz frame converter board originally intended as a replacement part for a larger LCD TV might work as, not only is it small and extremely light but it even runs off the same battery power as my portable LCD gaming monitor (5V@3A)...but, while you never said it wouldn't work, you did say "to forget about it". Before I give up on the idea and move in another direction, could you confirm that you have reason to believe these boards just can't be repurposed in this way. I'm getting ready to return the screen before the 30 days is up if I know it won't be successful.
Before I tell you to give up, can you tell me if you found a Chinese supplier willing to sell them directly to you separately of a television manufacturer? The supply chain tends to be too integrated, like an unusually-shaped car part that cannot be adaptored to work properly with off-the-shelf screens.

It often are integrated TCON board that has integrated LVDS connectors only compatible with specific panels, e.g. AUO versus Innolux screens. If you know someone who can adaptor LVDS to DisplayPort, and add a battery supply, it probably could be Rube Goldberg'd, but might eat more power than the portable screen does. The problem is these are very specialized parts not currently easily obtained (supplier difficulty) and not easily adaptored (compatibility difficulty). The miniDP scalers are more often found in laptops which don't use interpolators, so you're stuck with HDTV connectors like LDVS panel ribbon connectors.

What resources do you have? What research have you already done? Any requisite display engineering skills on your team?
CameraTraveler27 wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 17:57
I have a WiFi 6 router and I like the idea of streaming over that but, worried about the range. I need 200-300ft from the router (no walls)
200-300ft is not close enough for low-latency WiFi unless you use special antenna-to-antenna hop to a 2nd WiFi 6 router. If you don't mind setup time, build a crashcart or suitcase with the equipment, and set up the antenna-to-antenna hop, to the WiFi 6 router that's closer to the action (users of 120Hz streamers).

For Distant WiFi: You Will Need A Low-Latency Bridge To Your WiFi

Can you at least hopper the remote WiFi some way (Ethernet, optical, Laser wireless link, WiFi bridge + directional antenna, etc) to a second closer WiFi 6 router dedicated to being closer to the 120 Hz screens? There are many options that will meet your latency budget, while bringing a (second) WiFi 6 router closer to the "action".
CameraTraveler27 wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 17:57
and while I had considered the iPad for it's beautiful 120Hz 12.9" screen, I need to give the viewer a wider, more immersive FOV and 17.3" is barely wide enough while still being light at under 2lbs.
Left Field Idea #1:
The Oculus Quest or Quest 2 Cordless Low-Persistence VR Option


The other option is using Oculus Quest as cordless immersive streamers. Be noted that strobed 60Hz and 72Hz has less motion blur than nonstrobed 120Hz. Remember that strobing can reproduce the HFR-like experience for framerate=Hz motion for fast-camera-shutter material. I can turn an many LCDs into a CRT-motion-clarity at lower refresh rates than 120Hz, e.g. 72Hz, 75Hz or 85Hz strobing like a CRT. There can be sufficient immersion feel since the Quest headsets is like strapping an IMAX cinema screen to the eyes.

You can use software such as BigScreen to put a virtual movie theater in 6dof VR. You can even stare downwards and see a virtual folding theater seat, and then stare upwards, and see an IMAX screen, in a virtual 3D-rendered movie theatre. This is not crappy Google Cardboard, but full 6dof CRT-clarity low-persistence virtual reality. Although there is the Facebook requirement, if that is acceptable, this can double as immersive cordless streamers too.

Left Field Idea #2:
Consider Tiny Batteries With AC Power Outlets Too For Easier Portable Tech...


It may be easier to jerry-rig something with those because the connectors are compatible (AC outlet on the pocket battery!), rather than having to deal with things like trying to adaptor LVDS-to-DisplayPort and all the headaches. You can also buy cellphone battery banks with built-in AC outlets nowadays (Ravpower sells them, I have one here), that fits in your pocket, that can power any 240Hz gaming monitor for approximately 1 hour. Semi-related, but new lithium batteries are quite big-output nowadays, I also recently have successfully boosted a car with a tiny cellphone charger, which I have too. It's quite tiny, barely bigger than two decks of playing cards side-by-side, but with help of its capacitor-boost, it outputs up to 1000 cold cranking amps (12 kilowatt surge) for starting a dead car. That's a jawdropping amount of power in a tiny thing now.

And if you need something even bigger, don't underestimate the power of a modern 1000-watt Jackery Power Station, which can now successfully battery-power an RTX 3080 gaming tower AND battery-power a 5000-lumen 120Hz DLP projector connected to it, shining onto a big inflatable screen at 120Hz, with no AC outlet nearby! In the middle of nowhere at a campground! That new 1000-watt camping lithium battery is lighter and smaller than an old-fashioned lead acid car battery; you can even run space heaters. These are amazing camping power supplies, it even got the rare 5 star Amazon rating (not even 4.5 stars).

You can get power banks with 120V AC power outlets from as tiny as pocket size 65watt-hour to lunchbox sized >1000watt-hour, including intermediate laptop carrying-bag sizes.

These neat gadgets weren't around 5 years ago, it is all thanks to Tesla commoditizing the boom of lithium batteries with high power output sufficient for duty never formerly dreamed of a couple decades ago.

Possible jerryrigs:
- Inflatable screen and a bright projector
- Bring the streaming computer out in a cart/suitcase containing a Jackery battery, and put the WiFi 6 router on top of the cart
- Battery power small 32-inch HDTVs with built-in 120fps interpolators
- Battery power some used 23.5-inch "PlayStation 240Hz 3D Gaming Displays" (fake 240Hz, but that's interpolation)
- Etc.
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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by thatoneguy » 27 Oct 2020, 13:03

Does your portable monitor have Thunderbolt 3 connections?
This might be a ghetto solution but an External GPU might help.

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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Oct 2020, 16:04

thatoneguy wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 13:03
Does your portable monitor have Thunderbolt 3 connections?
This might be a ghetto solution but an External GPU might help.
It's a good thought but -- No portable monitors have a Thunderbolt 3 connection.

The only portable monitors that do, are already powerful laptops and tablets already capable of running Smooth Video Project. So if you have Thunderbolt 3, you already can run Smooth Video Project.
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Re: 60Hz --> 120Hz realtime dedicated hardware converter or board?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Nov 2020, 16:30

CameraTraveler27 wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 17:57
I have a WiFi 6 router and I like the idea of streaming over that but, worried about the range. I need 200-300ft from the router (no walls) and while I had considered the iPad for it's beautiful 120Hz 12.9" screen, I need to give the viewer a wider, more immersive FOV and 17.3" is barely wide enough while still being light at under 2lbs. The only tablets of that screen size that have horsepower are 2-n-1 laptops at over $2000 plus they are around 5lbs+ in hand...Damn.

This is why I had hoped purchasing a $25 tiny, prebuilt, dedicated 60Hz >120Hz frame converter board originally intended as a replacement part for a larger LCD TV might work as, not only is it small and extremely light but it even runs off the same battery power as my portable LCD gaming monitor (5V@3A)...but, while you never said it wouldn't work, you did say "to forget about it". Before I give up on the idea and move in another direction, could you confirm that you have reason to believe these boards just can't be repurposed in this way. I'm getting ready to return the screen before the 30 days is up if I know it won't be successful.
Here's additional option: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Single-strobe 60fps at 60Hz can be much more immersive than 120fps sample-and-hold (without resorting to UltraHFR).

It emulates a 60Hz CRT tube, with zero motion blur. You could say goodbye to the interpolator, and simply use one of these options (either battery-powered or headset-based). And stay with the conventional 60fps workflow. You could even possibly make do with battery-powered Raspberry PI's this way, or tiny pocket tablets, with the right adaptor (e.g. HDMI capture). You can study more about the TWO METHODS of reducing display motion blur: CRT Nirvana Guide for Disappointed CRT-to-LCD Upgraders. The (1) strobe method of reducing display motion blur; and (2) the refreshrate method of reducing motion blur.

This possibly might be an easier way to achieve immersiveness, due to Blur Busters Law formula of "1ms of pixel visibility time translates to 1 pixel of motion blur per 1000 pixels/second". The two methods to shorten pixel visibility time (1) Add black periods between refresh cycles (like CRT or strobing or black frame insertion); OR (2) To add more frames (higher Hz + higher framerate).
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