Where is the evidence?

Separate area for niche lag issues including unexpected causes and/or electromagnetic interference (ECC = retransmits = lag). Interference (EMI, EMF) of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction latencies like a bad modem connection. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI. Please read this before entering sub-forum.
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This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
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Future
Posts: 51
Joined: 06 Dec 2022, 07:04

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Future » 28 Jan 2023, 15:49

Unreazz wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 12:41
well i have atleast the evidence for me, that its internet related. Gameplay was different and i also screenshoted my stats back then, when it worked like wonder.

on cable with VPN and on VDSL with a line reset. there was a major difference and i also streamed it live but sadly i don't have the VOD's anymore. they get automatically deleted after a month.

This is not just "Feeling" this is a whole different Gameplay and if you not a dumb, then you can clearly see the difference on other gameplays vs someone who suffers. you can see this just bei the thing how the whole world is reacting to you. this is probably something that a casual will not see.
Exactly my point. But people tend to dive into deep ocean without even suspecting that something way easier to notice and to fix might causes their problems. Sometimes it's so simple, that people can't believe that it would cause all the symptoms they have, they don't pay attention to it, they ignore it.
assombrosso wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 13:38
We don’t have time effort money to prove to people we are lagging, we would rather try to spend on a fix. Windows reinstall apparently resets everything so lag goes, but something triggers the lag to come back again. I have disabled updates using million ways and lag always comes back within hours. I did this over 30 times and it worked 30 times.
I am not saying to prove me you are lagging, I am lagging too. I am asking for evidence, a back up of a claim people are making. That's different. If you prove it's electrical issue or EMI/RFI that cause all the symptoms we have I'd be the first one to admit I was wrong and congratulate you for the success, be sure about that. Unfortunately noone can and the reason for that is really simple, that's what I want you guys to understand. If it was electrical issue or any interferance, the last thing you would notice is input latency.

About the electricity - you can safely rule it out if you buy an UPS, power conditioner and filters. Or you can just use a laptop powered on battery. If you still think they can't get the job done, you can go to another place where you are sure there aren't any electrical problems. Is your problem fixed? No. Why? Because it's not related to electricity. About EMI/RFI - you can safely rule it out if you go far away with your PC. Is your problem fixed? No. Why? Because it's not EMI/RFI related.

Windows reinstall fixes your problem for different periods of time? Why? Probably because every time your windows is fresh you have no useless bloatware installed, no useless r0ach tweaks or maybe because it's something in your config you write and it shouldn't be there? Can be anything. And that's where I'm trying to force the community to dig up, because in here (electrical,emi/rfi issues), there is nothing to find.
Unixko wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 14:15
dont try to fight with this people they will fight with they excuse to death
they never try to figure out with they own mind where is the problem because they dont belive themself
so first shit what they found its become they reality
and they perception is base of other people opinions thats it end of story
and for all your gigs there yes you feel something but what you feel is completly something different
Unfortunately input lag exists, but the last thing it would cause our symptoms is electricity or emi/rfi. Some have more, some have less. I am just trying to explain to them that they are stuck in an endless loop and show them the right direction. They have heads on their shoulders and the freedom to think whatever they want, but spreading misleading information and trying to convice themselves and also everybody else it's something it isn't... I can't tolerate that.

triplese
Posts: 130
Joined: 13 Dec 2021, 12:20

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by triplese » 29 Jan 2023, 09:34

Future wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 04:42
1. Fair enough, if you don't have it in your office why don't you record your gameplay there and when you are at home record your gameplay again. Upload the two videos here and we will make a comparison between the two videos. Also, please, don't forget to record them with opened net_graph. According to your theory, my friend must have input lag too, why doesn't he? And why moving to different places didn't work neither for me, or anybody else here? Why doesn't every person on this planet who lives in older houses/apartments have the issue? How did you ruled out the placebo factor and how did you measure that everything is okay in your office?

2. What the admin told you is that they don't use any software or hardware because they don't need it. It's the same why you don't drive with winter tires during summer days. Why would you?

3. No need to go to Katowice or anywhere if you say that the input lag doesn't exist in your office, it's way easier for you. The only thing left is to prove that it's not a placebo or internet related problem and that's easy. So please, because I haven't met a person with such a massive claim, please provide the evidences and convince the rest of us the doubters.

4. How so "noone knows what's causing it" but you claim it's electricity and you are trying so hard, that you are ignorant to everything else?

5. The fact that you played 4k hours on LEM and you are saying "With 240hz monitor before lag I had some advantage, maybe 50-100 ms to flick and click." speaks for itself, I don't even know how to reply to that, it's that ridiculous.

Good, you have a problem on all servers. How do you know it's not your ISP then? Saying that you have the same ISP at home and at your office doesn't mean the line can't be fucked up. Me and my friend also have the same provider, his gameplay is fluent but mine is not. I have encountered packet loss but he never did. Are you sure that at home you don't have too many wireless devices attached to your network that steal your bandwith? Are you sure you have the same equipment in both your office and at home? Are you sure it's not an ISP cable somewhere on the trace? Or ISP router? Or ISP switch? Did you try to diagnose ISP related problems and how? You will be amazed how many shitty ISPs there are around the world, or how people are unable to tell if it's pure internet lag or input lag. Again, I don't want to offend you, but you tried to blame your screen tearing on "bad electricity", tell me how do I believe you?

If it's not network related and the so called "desync" is not server/ISP related, can you record a video where bots insta-peek you on LAN? I highly doubt.
1. Okay, send me 500+fps camera and I will film it personally for you. I'm here not for providing evidences for random people, but for exchanging experience with people who fighting same problem. At this moment I have enough evidence provided by my eyes and no free $2000+ for buying camera for fighting internet trolls.

2. So if they dont needed - they dont encounter problem. Because if s1mple encountered such problem - he trolled this admin till death or retire for sure. For another example you can watch former semi-pro https://www.faceit.com/en/players/RachelR (team Insilio), who lived in deep Russla and had that and dont know about that, and in his streams he refused to think about such problem because "why I need to think it if I cant fix it". Few streams he complained about its not possible to play with ~100ms ping, and almost impossible to play competitively on 3k+ elo. However he had invested big time in personal skill, and make his team, he very fast retired to be manager but not player. But after he moved to big city in new apartments, he said in stream "You will be laugh on me, but input lag exists. This is cannot be explained by the words, but in new flat mouse feels super precise". RIP another 9k hours talent, who almost had hltv profile :lol: BTW, today insilio got their hltv team profile lol.

3. Investments of time, money for buying rig to capture footages, moving all gear is pretty high for providing evidence for someone. I have a fulltime job and family, and its too much for just another forum post. I'm better will invest in new apartments somewhere else in a few years.

4. I dont claim that this is electricity only, but its definitely is not PC/Windows/BIOS settings, but location related. What we have on location - internet and electricity. RFI/EMI/other xxI - is too complex to find.
Electricity analyzer like fluke 43b starting from $1000. What if that is not electricity? What if this is electricity, but what exact parameter is affecting PC or router?

5. I dont find any ridiculous in my words. If you dont know, 240hz renders image faster then 60hz (4.3ms vs 15.6ms if I recall). + add here peeker advantage and you will have 50-100ms. + add here many people who still playing on old laptops which barely giving 60fps. But in one moment all enemies started to be esports pros. But only while fighting with me. Only one proper way to kill anyone - peek fullblinded enemy, or shoot him in head from behind.

I say that its not ISP, because I'm working as network engineer.
3 ISPs tested - ethernet, LTE and fiber. With a last ISP I have very nice communication and its working in our office, so I can probably say that this is not their fault.
4 routers, included mikrotik and totally overkilling juniper from office which worked for 1000+ clients and server without any problems.
Wireless devices cant steal any bandwidth on 1gbit symmetrical link on a router without wifi at all :lol: and while I connected only my PC and uplink.
Shitty ISPs is anywhere, but if you make statistics, you will have both positive and negative reviews for all ISPs. Only one way to say "this is ISP fault" - connect directly to valve switch in datacenter and all problems will be fixed in one moment.
Any other problems with routers/switches is easy detectable by ISP monitoring.

Argument about bots is ROFL. When valve make AI that will peek not like silver 1 - you can DM me :lol:

Future
Posts: 51
Joined: 06 Dec 2022, 07:04

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Future » 29 Jan 2023, 10:20

triplese wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 09:34
Future wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 04:42
1. Fair enough, if you don't have it in your office why don't you record your gameplay there and when you are at home record your gameplay again. Upload the two videos here and we will make a comparison between the two videos. Also, please, don't forget to record them with opened net_graph. According to your theory, my friend must have input lag too, why doesn't he? And why moving to different places didn't work neither for me, or anybody else here? Why doesn't every person on this planet who lives in older houses/apartments have the issue? How did you ruled out the placebo factor and how did you measure that everything is okay in your office?

2. What the admin told you is that they don't use any software or hardware because they don't need it. It's the same why you don't drive with winter tires during summer days. Why would you?

3. No need to go to Katowice or anywhere if you say that the input lag doesn't exist in your office, it's way easier for you. The only thing left is to prove that it's not a placebo or internet related problem and that's easy. So please, because I haven't met a person with such a massive claim, please provide the evidences and convince the rest of us the doubters.

4. How so "noone knows what's causing it" but you claim it's electricity and you are trying so hard, that you are ignorant to everything else?

5. The fact that you played 4k hours on LEM and you are saying "With 240hz monitor before lag I had some advantage, maybe 50-100 ms to flick and click." speaks for itself, I don't even know how to reply to that, it's that ridiculous.

Good, you have a problem on all servers. How do you know it's not your ISP then? Saying that you have the same ISP at home and at your office doesn't mean the line can't be fucked up. Me and my friend also have the same provider, his gameplay is fluent but mine is not. I have encountered packet loss but he never did. Are you sure that at home you don't have too many wireless devices attached to your network that steal your bandwith? Are you sure you have the same equipment in both your office and at home? Are you sure it's not an ISP cable somewhere on the trace? Or ISP router? Or ISP switch? Did you try to diagnose ISP related problems and how? You will be amazed how many shitty ISPs there are around the world, or how people are unable to tell if it's pure internet lag or input lag. Again, I don't want to offend you, but you tried to blame your screen tearing on "bad electricity", tell me how do I believe you?

If it's not network related and the so called "desync" is not server/ISP related, can you record a video where bots insta-peek you on LAN? I highly doubt.
1. Okay, send me 500+fps camera and I will film it personally for you. I'm here not for providing evidences for random people, but for exchanging experience with people who fighting same problem. At this moment I have enough evidence provided by my eyes and no free $2000+ for buying camera for fighting internet trolls.

2. So if they dont needed - they dont encounter problem. Because if s1mple encountered such problem - he trolled this admin till death or retire for sure. For another example you can watch former semi-pro https://www.faceit.com/en/players/RachelR (team Insilio), who lived in deep Russla and had that and dont know about that, and in his streams he refused to think about such problem because "why I need to think it if I cant fix it". Few streams he complained about its not possible to play with ~100ms ping, and almost impossible to play competitively on 3k+ elo. However he had invested big time in personal skill, and make his team, he very fast retired to be manager but not player. But after he moved to big city in new apartments, he said in stream "You will be laugh on me, but input lag exists. This is cannot be explained by the words, but in new flat mouse feels super precise". RIP another 9k hours talent, who almost had hltv profile :lol: BTW, today insilio got their hltv team profile lol.

3. Investments of time, money for buying rig to capture footages, moving all gear is pretty high for providing evidence for someone. I have a fulltime job and family, and its too much for just another forum post. I'm better will invest in new apartments somewhere else in a few years.

4. I dont claim that this is electricity only, but its definitely is not PC/Windows/BIOS settings, but location related. What we have on location - internet and electricity. RFI/EMI/other xxI - is too complex to find.
Electricity analyzer like fluke 43b starting from $1000. What if that is not electricity? What if this is electricity, but what exact parameter is affecting PC or router?

5. I dont find any ridiculous in my words. If you dont know, 240hz renders image faster then 60hz (4.3ms vs 15.6ms if I recall). + add here peeker advantage and you will have 50-100ms. + add here many people who still playing on old laptops which barely giving 60fps. But in one moment all enemies started to be esports pros. But only while fighting with me. Only one proper way to kill anyone - peek fullblinded enemy, or shoot him in head from behind.

I say that its not ISP, because I'm working as network engineer.
3 ISPs tested - ethernet, LTE and fiber. With a last ISP I have very nice communication and its working in our office, so I can probably say that this is not their fault.
4 routers, included mikrotik and totally overkilling juniper from office which worked for 1000+ clients and server without any problems.
Wireless devices cant steal any bandwidth on 1gbit symmetrical link on a router without wifi at all :lol: and while I connected only my PC and uplink.
Shitty ISPs is anywhere, but if you make statistics, you will have both positive and negative reviews for all ISPs. Only one way to say "this is ISP fault" - connect directly to valve switch in datacenter and all problems will be fixed in one moment.
Any other problems with routers/switches is easy detectable by ISP monitoring.

Argument about bots is ROFL. When valve make AI that will peek not like silver 1 - you can DM me :lol:
Why would you need 500fps camera when you claim the following:
triplese wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 19:52
You are speaking about <50ms windows+whole system lag, which is kind of normal. We are speaking about >500ms lag, while you see on your screen normal image, but just only >500ms behind the server.
That would be visible even on 30fps phone camera. But no, you still refuse to show us a single evidence for your discovery how your game runs fine at your office but not at home. Going into defensive mode, not answering my questions and telling me I'm troll when you are faced with facts? Understandable. :(

They don't encounter such a problem because it's not electricity or EMI/RFI, that's why. They have the best internet connections in your whole country, lines only for them that are not used by any other people. There is literally zero network congestion. They have expensive setups and they have the proper settings for them. That's why they don't experience input or internet lag. As simple as that. Again you are proving my point that in your case you can't tell the difference between internet and input lag quoting the clown rachel who plays with 120ms ping and complains people instapeek him. Why would that happen, let me think. Hm......... maybe because he plays with 120 ping and that's how valve lag compensation works on 64/128 tick server??????????? You call yourself network engineer but you can't understand such basic stuff? What equipment are you talking about, dude, what is your excuse again? You uploaded a video from a netbook just few days ago and you claim you don't have it in your office which means you already brought it there. Are your netbook, mouse and charger that heavy or maybe it's just another excuse.

assombrosso
Posts: 279
Joined: 29 Nov 2021, 10:34

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by assombrosso » 29 Jan 2023, 16:45

Internet could be one of the reasons due to congestion/high traffic but for me I don’t buy it, there were some fixes that I did that made the lag less for 5 days and that is changing my motherboard, everything was smooth and clean for the first 5 days until it started to lag in/worsen, ISP same, all windows settings were the same, played at different times and this was the result. Changing bios settings and reducing cpu speed and/or GPU power made an immediate effect but later one stopped working.

I have personally tried a power generator for my pc and plugged everything in it in my location and the lag was there with no difference at all lol. Due to all of this, my ultimate theory is that either RFI or EMI or something in the air that affect PC equipments over time and causes errors to accumulate in the system until the system start lagging, windows reinstall can fix this depending on the image used and how fast you install and play, changing bios settings etc can affect this by reducing pc power abit but errors will come back again, interference over the air is the biggest culprit and it could be from many things, wireless devices, cell towers, other electronics emitting signals which is why it’s hard to know.

Ok, another thing to add, I read over 20 threads about ppl who are pro tier/really good at cs who said lag happened after buying new pc that is powerful than their old pc, yes, same location, same room, even same windows 10 image (pro player experimented with it) and they said, one pc has a lot of input lag/heavy feeling where they can’t do anything while other old pc with little frames has actually way way better responsiveness, this leads us to believe that some computers 4 whatever reason are more susceptible to being laggy than other pc.


Another reason, account lag in cs, some accounts have more lag than other accounts for no apparent reason, even if they delete config or files or anything, csgo is much more heavier in some accounts vs other accounts.

Now how the hell can a person know what the reason is, is it A, B or c or is it A and B or is it A B and c.

My personal opinion for people who brows this forum, the main issue is 70% over the air interference + 30% computer being used. This is why most people did not have luck upgrading their pc or using power stations.

Future
Posts: 51
Joined: 06 Dec 2022, 07:04

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Future » 29 Jan 2023, 17:49

assombrosso wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 16:45
Internet could be one of the reasons due to congestion/high traffic but for me I don’t buy it, there were some fixes that I did that made the lag less for 5 days and that is changing my motherboard, everything was smooth and clean for the first 5 days until it started to lag in/worsen, ISP same, all windows settings were the same, played at different times and this was the result. Changing bios settings and reducing cpu speed and/or GPU power made an immediate effect but later one stopped working.

I have personally tried a power generator for my pc and plugged everything in it in my location and the lag was there with no difference at all lol. Due to all of this, my ultimate theory is that either RFI or EMI or something in the air that affect PC equipments over time and causes errors to accumulate in the system until the system start lagging, windows reinstall can fix this depending on the image used and how fast you install and play, changing bios settings etc can affect this by reducing pc power abit but errors will come back again, interference over the air is the biggest culprit and it could be from many things, wireless devices, cell towers, other electronics emitting signals which is why it’s hard to know.

Ok, another thing to add, I read over 20 threads about ppl who are pro tier/really good at cs who said lag happened after buying new pc that is powerful than their old pc, yes, same location, same room, even same windows 10 image (pro player experimented with it) and they said, one pc has a lot of input lag/heavy feeling where they can’t do anything while other old pc with little frames has actually way way better responsiveness, this leads us to believe that some computers 4 whatever reason are more susceptible to being laggy than other pc.


Another reason, account lag in cs, some accounts have more lag than other accounts for no apparent reason, even if they delete config or files or anything, csgo is much more heavier in some accounts vs other accounts.

Now how the hell can a person know what the reason is, is it A, B or c or is it A and B or is it A B and c.

My personal opinion for people who brows this forum, the main issue is 70% over the air interference + 30% computer being used. This is why most people did not have luck upgrading their pc or using power stations.
Brotha, I feel you and I truly understand you. I know your struggle. But you don't need to be a specialist to realize that electricity and EMI/RFI can't cause it. And you don't even need to be that good at physics, just some critical thinking and that's it. You know what's funny? I remember when this whole electricity circus started. Few years ago there were threads in github and steam forums "cs isn't smooth" and another one on nvidia forums "mouse input lag is killing me". I suspect it was the same troll who posted this ridiculous claim that it's electricity and few other retards spread it everywhere. And the most ridiculous part of the problem is that there are too many people who believed it. People started to blame their system latency on bad electricity and EMI/RFI, their internet latency, their spikes, their BSOD and every single thing you can imagine. With the same success you can try to blame it on the position of the sun, it would make exactly as much sense. The guy from the thread in nvidia claimed that moving to another place fixed his issue, but he still continues to browse different forums searching for a fix and complains about lags and scripting in the FIFA sub. Same for the others who claimed they somehow fixed it. Where are the evidences? A simple back up of your claim wouldn't hurt, right? But how can you prove something that doesn't exist? Yet, there are still people who think their posts are credible and start to repeat the same bs. And this thing leads to few other problems - newbies start to read this crap, they spend their hard earned money on stuff they don't need, to fix problems caused by easy to diagnose stuff without success. You have a really good example few posts above, the guy with the lack of evidence for his mysterious difference between two different places, which he refuses to capture... even with his phone. I think I made a good point with why pro players have never faced such a problem, yet the guy above dissaproved it by saying "they dont live in low cost appartments". Does that sound like a normal and acceptable answer to you from a guy who claims his issue is electricity, EMI/RFI?

Here is where the critical thinking takes place. There are billions of people who play video games. Probably millions of people with the same reaction time as yours. God knows how many of them live in places with poor infrastructure, poor electrical installation and EMI/RFI. Places that by your standarts would be not compatible for good gaming experience and not "inputlag-proof". Hell, do you even have any idea how many people live in the popular soviet commie blocks? If electricity or EMI/RFI cause input lag there would be so many people affected by this, that it would be probably on the news all over the world. In fact, it's way easier to rule out electricity and EMI/RFI as a root cause of your issue, than diagnosing your whole pc alone. You can go back to the previous post where I replied to you and see how. It would've been great if people read more often the pinned post on the first page in this section.

As for the "account lag", I am not aware of this one. Honestly I have tried many steam accounts, but I saw no difference on any of them. The only difference I am seeing is trying different OS, you already know which one makes my input lag dissapread completely. Some are better, some are worse. Having more lag on some builds more than others is not surprising, there are many hardware and software conflicts occuring. They lead to higher system latencies or hangups, even microstuttering. That's why every org has a person or people who take care of their setups and system settings. There are people who take care for that even on LAN events. Speaking for LAN events, if it was EMI or RFI, have you ever thought what would the numbers be if you bring EMI meter or some device that measures interferances on LAN event? With all these pcs, big screens, thousands of people with phones and all these electronics there. According to the EMI/RFI theory they wouldn't be able to play without input lag, would they? And what about the infrastructure of these buildings that host the LAN events? You think they are that premium? No, hosts care only about money making, they rent the cheapest ones.

Because you said your theory is EMI/RFI, if you go far enough with your setup, then you can rule out both of them. If you suspect that it's affecting your whole building or even your whole city you can ask some of your friends who play the same games as you for his opinion and for his experience. Or even better, you can go to him with your setup and test it yourself. Easy and costs nothing. So there are no excuses for how expensive it is to prove something, the only thing you need is enough will. And it's in your interest to prove it, at least to yourself, otherwise how do you plan to fix it?

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Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 29 Jan 2023, 18:09

Future wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 16:55
And because it seems everyone avoids my questions, one more time:

1. Why do pro players have never experienced such an issue when they change appartments, hotels and bootcamps so often?
2. Do you think that all the places they have been were with perfect electricity and without any EMI/RFI?
3. If bad electricity or EMI/RFI were the problems, why can't you reproduce the issue somewhere where it doesn't exist?
4. Where is the evidence that even if the electricity is bad or there is EMI/RFI it would cause exactly that kind of a problem?
5. How come you played with the same electricity when you had no input lag and all of a sudden it started causing this particular problem? I mean, obviously the input lag hasn't appeared from nowhere. It wasn't there before, otherwise how would you know you have input lag?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FvyhIbfc74

Here you can see a young pro player from Navi junior asked on stream about input lag. Shortly, what he says is that he has never heard of any pro player complaining about something like that. He also says that he changed more places than you could imagine and he never had that problem nowhere. Now tell me, whom do I have to believe? Random people on the internet who spread non-sense theories how they moved their wardrobe in the other corner of the room and that fixed their input lag or pro players who earn their money, playing the games I play?
1. For the same reason pro players don't care about things inside an FPGA, and why ECC systems exists in more than a dozen parts of their system. It's not the job of pro players to complain about the genuine interference-derived lags. The most common one is DSL based which is a much more visible user-facing inteference-affected parts of society, but there are thousands of non-knowns except in engineering circles.

2. Interference doesn't always cause lag, but it can. Here's an example. The problem is that you may have 99.9%+ "good enough" electricity in USA, but only 70%+ in a country such as Slovenia or a part of Mexico. Moving between apartments in USA is usually a non-issue (>99%+ of time) And computer vendors don't test for the 1 in 10,000. Beta testers don't recognize the amount of interference that can occur in a house sitting under a 500,000 volt transmission line in some countries. You have wide allowances where nobody is allowed to build houses under a power corridor in USA, but in some countries, they build all over the place near these EMP-league power transmission lines, as an example! Laws are laxer in some countries.

3. You cannot reproduce bad electricity because it's site-specific problem. Computer engineers spend tons of time trying to fix this.

4. Evidence without a Ph.D is hard to come by. You can't really easily troubleshoot these kinds of things, but you can do larger blanket fixes such as offgridding (e.g. using a Jackery Power Station to power your gaming PC) to create a bubble. But remember, interference can be both wired and wireless.

5. These things are very hard to troubleshoot.

6. There are lots of tinfoil hatters and lots of bad content (posts, social media, youtubes, etc). But interference is a real problem.
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Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 29 Jan 2023, 18:09

Crosspost
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Sep 2021, 13:29
Hello,

TL;DR: Your latency problem is probably not electricity related, but it can still sometimes happen. Most newbies should exit this forum immediately as problems are often elsewhere.

Why This New EMI Forum Exists
  • We have permitted this forum to exist because Blur Busters is an incubator of computer temporal issues (Hz, GtG, MPRT, PWM, VRR, latency, stutter, etc).
  • EMI is real science. See Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) and Electronics Notes, and many others, for more information.
  • Blur Busters generally protects and mythbust a lot of these "Millisecond Matters" issues, with the known domino effect of milliseconds building up and cascading to human-visible issues. Basically the entire temporal universe. A thousand microseconds equals a millisecond, after all.
  • We protect many outlier temporal topics that are distant spinoffs of the old "30fps vs 60fps" skeptics of twenty years ago. You can read about Blur Busters research at www.blurbusters.com/area51 as an incubator of display research of the future.
  • Now, inevitably, we started having threads about EMI / inteference issues that creates latency, and several of them are legitimate (even in the midst of many wild goose chases and red herrings).
  • So we've decided to allow a small sub-forum for these types of threads.
The Modern Computer
Most latency problems do not result from electricity. However, rarely, they do. It's often at the level of "Too infrequent to show up in manufacturer beta testing" but at the level of "It appears over a thousand people are affected in a population of 10,000,000"

Latency from interference / electrical / EMI / EMF is almost always an error-correction latency. Modern computers are full of error correction.
  • ...Yesterday 1985 IDE bus .... CRASH upon electircal issue
    ...Today's 2020 nVME .... LAG upon electircal issue (error retransmit)
  • ...Yesterday's 1985 ISA bus ... CRASH upon electircal issue
    ...Today's 2020 PCI-Express ... LAG upon electircal issue (error retransmit)
  • ...Yesterday's 1985 RS232 serial bus ... CORRUPTION
    ...Today's 2020 USB ... LAG upon electircal issue (error retransmit)
  • ...Yesterday's 1985 BBS modem ... CORRUPTION (garbage text + NO CARRIER)
    ...Today's 2020 DSL modem ... LAG upon electircal issue (error retransmit & protocol lag change between fastpath/interleave)
  • ...Yesterday's 1985 video RAM ... CORRUPTION
    ...Today's 2020 NVIDIA GDDR6 RAM ... LAG upon electircal issue (error repeat read)
So, now if you live in a high-radiation environment, it's possible to be getting millions of hidden error correction events throughout your computer -- death by a thousand cuts -- millions of microseconds and nanoseconds building up to human feelable multi-millisecond latencies. Buses are now packetized. So your PCI lanes, DisplayPort cable, USB cables, etc, can have packet loss in the presence of extremely strong interference strong enough even to affect good brands of computer hardware. Rare, but it's quite possible. It has happened.

Imagine Circuit Board Traces Are Like Tiny DSL Lines!
We're familiar with DSL problems from interference, far more common. But because we're pushing speeds so fast now to technological limits, even a PCIe lane can have bad S/N ratios on the motherboard circuit trace. Just like a poor DSL line on some motherboards or high-interference regimes (technical info) -- even protocol changes that creates lag chances (metaphorically like fastpath vs interleve, except it's a protocol change on a circuit board trace, or an internal wire, or even certain on-chip silicon traces now filled with error correction algorithms). Death by a million nanosecond paper cuts. Rare, but it's quite possible, getting more common as circuit bitrates get faster. It has happened.

Bottom Line Domino Effect: Interference = Error Correction = Latency
So, fellow technical minds, you get the idea. Modern computers are full of error correction. Error correction storms means that millions of nanoseconds can build up to multiple human-noticeable milliseconds, interfering with your gameplay. Some people in other countries are unlucky to live under 500,000-volt power transmission lines, and others are unlucky to live above a mechanical floor (with big motors) in an apartment tower, or a big 200-amp power transformer hiding behind the wall behind computer desk. So even if you don't have any EMI issues, other people do.

Personal Experience / Why Don't I Hear About This In Forums?
I personally have experienced latency-by-electricity-issue. It's legitimate. Just rare.
This stuff is usually mainly talked out by engineers because there's no easy everyday-user instructions for troubleshooting interference / EMI issues. That's why this stuff is very rare in other discussion forums. But it's all over Google Scholar / university papers / advanced engineering materials. If you have taken university classes in circuit and RF design, you are already familiar with EMI issues. Basically orders of magnitude more advanced than an average forum. Just because you don't hear about it in forums, doesn't mean it doesn't exist at a higher level of knowledge. It's why you don't hear about algebra/calculus in discussion forums but it's important at a higher education level at jobs.

Why Is This Not 100% Fixed Industry Wide?
They are (mostly) fixed. As computers got faster, they had to gain more error correction. With tinier transistors, they are more fragile to interference so a lot of mitigations had to be added. But the mitigations are not perfect. The problem is that your neighbor may have a million-times worse interference than you do. It just may not have been strong enough for that neighbour's location. Also, manufacturers can't beta-test in a billion locations at the same time. See Location Specific below.

Interference is Sometimes Location Specific
A rural farmhouse running on a good quality Canadian hydroelectric dam, might have pretty clean electricity and no over-the-air interference. But an urban dwelling in a decripit-infrastructure country, living 10 meters from high voltage power transmission lines & next to a malfunctioning fridge motor & hundreds living near you with old appliances, you might have the misfortune of over one billion times more interference than the Canadian farmhouse bedroom computer. The fact is that not all companies are able to whac-a-mole all possible causes of interferences in all possible countries in all possible parts of the world. There's billions of places to live, and not two locations have identical interference patterns.

Electrical Issues Are HARD To Troubleshoot
This stuff is well known to university degree holders (in electricity related) and NVIDIA circuit engineers but almost unknown in the hobbyist communities. This is a topic almost too advanced for Blur Busters Forums, but I have allowed this legitimate topic to exist. However, be warned this forum area will have.

We Prioritize Latency Issues
There are many kinds of electrical issues that cause problems (e.g. computer crash). Other forums exist elsewhere on the Internet to cover this. Here, we're prioritizing issues that causes input latencies and such.

Never Assume Your Problem is EMI. And Remember to test OFFLINE
Most online latency is caused by Internet and game issues (even if you switch ISPs and VPNs). Post in the other latency forum first before posting in the EMI forum. Test your issues offline. If you're getting strange latency during only one part of the day because you're playing offline, then it becomes bigger odds that your latency issue is electricity-related. Time-of-day latency during offline play is sometimes caused by electrical interference by appliances that everybody uses nearby, and that can cause electricity to become noisy enough to begin latency issues (from error correction storms in various places) in your computer. Just because changing ISPs did not fix your issue, does not mean you should automatically assume your problem is EMI related.

Solutions are Situation-Specific. Your Fix Will Rarely Work; Other People's Fixes Rarely Work
There are infinite number of issues with EMI, to the point where one person's legitimate (for themselves) solution rarely fix another person's, when it comes to EMI-related issues and other "rare" / "odd" issues. There's more than a trillion dominoes that can cause a computer to stop working. Please read this example post to better understand that there are an infinite number of separate S/N ratios involved in a computer (signal-to-noise ratios).

Be Patient
Do not name call other people "crazy" or whatnot. The problem is that this forum is full of experienced (Ph.D/electrical) and inexperienced (speculation/guesses) and these collides into heated fights sometimes. Thus, this forum is somewhat more heavily moderated than usual, and posts may be deleted more often in this area, and threads may be closed more often in this area. To prevent this from happening to your thread, please read the forum rules.

Do Not Post About Electricity-Related Lag Outside This Forum
Electricity related speculation/troubleshooting should be posted in this subforum, and no where else. Posts on these topics outside this subforum, will either be deleted or moved to this forum. This was necessary due to forum problems in the past.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 29 Jan 2023, 18:10

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
04 Jan 2022, 16:31
TL;DR: ⚠️⚠️⚠️ Most latency problems is not electricity related, but it can still sometimes happen. Most newbies should not visit this EMI forum yet, as problems are often elsewhere. Please troubleshoot other causes first before posting here. ⚠️⚠️⚠️

TL;DR2: If you are confused, you are in the wrong forum.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 18:46
kriegor wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:56
assombrosso wrote:
05 Jan 2022, 04:58
Tried many locations, tried 6 pc's, did many tricks and still i dont know.
That seems like a lot of effort and ressources spent.
Have you, instead, tried purchasing a latency measurement device such as syslat or Nvidia LDAT?
Or even a high speed camera? Because any sort of actual measurement, when it comes to pure system latency, would be far more conclusive and more important than just trying out different hardware based on feel. You cannot count on your perception alone to be unbiased or flawless to the point where it trumps any measuring.
"Fixed" that for you.

This is true, very true in researcher circles that you must try to back up what you witness with evidence. But simultaneously this is a forum. Unfortunately, lots are placebos but sometimes we invent tests because of a forum post that was thought placebo, and it was a real effect. see this very famous example where we egged a researcher to prove what I saw with my eyes, was definitely correct, and he created a test and research paper that proved I was correct.

Instead, we encourage users to try to help each other invent simple tests, even by jerry-rigging limited equipment (that's how I invented the pursuit camera, now peer reviwed -- and even works with a hand-waved smartphone now). Sometimes tests are hard to invent, though.

When Blur Busters feasted their eyes on the first 120 Hz monitors, no 60Hz user believed me that they could see the difference.
When I explained in 2012 how an LCD can match CRT motion clarity, nobody believed me either -- but it's now a reality.
Etc.

One problem is measurements often miss a lot of perception. LCD GtG measurements do not measure MPRT motion blur. People could not understand why 8ms -> 4ms -> 1ms LCD GtG didn't reduce motion blur closer to a CRT, until it was explained that LCD GtG and MPRT were two different pixel response measurements[/url].

This is why we allow human visible observations to be reported so we can invent new tests to measure them properly scientifically.

Even if 90% seems placebo, we don't dismiss quickly because a measurement doesn't catch all attributes. Either us or others try to research things deeper and finally invent new way to test something / fix something / etc.

That was also how TestUFO was born too. Including those oddball tests (out of the 30 selectable at upper right corner of www.testufo.com).

Here's a very good counter-rebuttal: What Is The Hz Limit Of The Human Eye?. Which is somewhat simplistic, but is a good way to prove that "flicker testing" does NOT correctly test ALL human visible limitations of a display. Existing tests aren't always comprehensive.

I am cited in over 20 peer reviewed papers (Google Scholar Search) because I welcome uncertain observations so we can invent new tests to confirm observations. Sometimes it is other researchers that do this; sometimes our forum is a crowsourced incubator of research -- not just us, some other people invents a test because they read these forums. This forum is an incubator of outlier ideas that will get attacked from all sides, but I will definitely moderate against discouragements. If discouragement was endemic, Galileo wouldn't have managed to convince some of the world that the Earth was round. He was assaulted by discouragement by all sides. So was Einstein. Etc. History is rife with that.

The new 1000Hz-vs-2000Hz mouse paper (testing Razer 8KHz) was a result of a debate between a disbelieving Korean researcher and us -- (more info in this thread) and then he now agrees after having invented necessary tests and done the tests (including blind tests on humans)
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Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
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Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 29 Jan 2023, 18:13

In addition, threads like "Where is the evidence?" is caused mainly by people who did not READ before posting.

Some interference issues requires four, five or six figures of equipment -- those piddly testers will only help 1% of problems. Unless you have five figures cost worth of equipment, there is no easy way to troubleshoot as well the university Ph.D's at many corporations.

The fact remains, is that interference is a big problem, but the "Where Is The Evidence!?!!!!?!!111!!" posts are just flamebait. The correct thread title should be "Why Are Genuine Interference Problems So Hard To Troubleshoot". Find a way to get an A+ grade in that school paper, buddy -- and until then, this thread is CLOSED.

Thread closed because debate-threads like these serve no purpose on Blur Busters Forums.

P.S. Unixko has been banned from these forums. I don't want that kind of "forum discourse". But, inteference is a really big problem as we push the last vestiges of Moore's Law deep into error margins and ever close to the noise floor. We all know it's also happens to be why space processors (e.g. IBM RAD 600) is more than 10x-100x slower than current Earth-based chips, due to OUTER SPACE INTERFERENCE -- that's why the MARS ROVERS USE INTERFERNCE PROOF CHIPS but -- Earth still is not church-quiet if you're Geordi Laforge and try to view other wavelengths than visible light spectrum. Some of these creates interference into our equipment through any of the infinite number of vectors into our computers.

Remember, there are an infinite number of wavelengths, and infinite number of different intensities from below a quantum peep all the way to supernova/bigbang big, and everywhere in between. You're lucky if you're not living in a high-interference part of the world like lack of Earth grounding, building densely packed around high voltage lines, old inteference-emitting motors, and other gigantic regimes of EMI that causes problems to some computers on Earth.

But we have a lot of interference here in some parts of this world, that really wreaks havoc with latency -- Especially when we're trying to get our 6GHz rigs to perform well without as many latency errors, and whenever we're not sure whether the zillions of interference based issues are part of it or not, in the big soup of millions of lag causes. But a lot of people in this forum is debating this the wrong way, and this isn't worthy of Blur Busters at all.

Again, this could be a 1 in 10,000 thing in USA, while being a 1 in 100 thing in say an Eastern Europe country, etc. You have to RESPECT people in unlucky interference environments by not becoming a Police Interrogator on these poor sob's. Be nice to each other.

This topic area direction needs to be steered differently, and respectfully.

/thread-closed
/dont-send-me-PMs-to-reopen
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Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

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