[EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Separate area for niche lag issues including unexpected causes and/or electromagnetic interference (ECC = retransmits = lag). Interference (EMI, EMF) of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction latencies like a bad modem connection. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI. Please read this before entering sub-forum.
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This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
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Thatweirdinputlag
Posts: 305
Joined: 27 Aug 2021, 14:09

Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by Thatweirdinputlag » 26 Jan 2023, 04:46

Eonds wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:55
Thatweirdinputlag wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:40
Eonds wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 09:04
Thatweirdinputlag wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 00:23
True, my bad for not including my part of the conversation! I never said the problem was the PSU, I already mentioned to the CS agent that probably the electricity is causing these issues, what can go really bad in the electric grid to start effecting the PSU and its power delivery to the PC. However I did ask whether a higher quality PSU with Titanium Rating might be beneficial, he did say it will behave better but his answer was also vague and lacks foundation.

I contacted them approximately 5 months ago, when an electronics store close to me brought their Prime TX lineup. The 850W variant from that lineup would set me back about $275. The 1000W is close to $350.
You should be more worried about if you're actually get the proper incoming AC and not wild fluctuations/extreme harmonics (even though your PSU and motherboard filter probably 90+% or more. A true lab AC generator is probably something that could eliminate the possibility of it being specifically linked to the electricity. I think more reasonably it's linked to just poor power quality. I'm currently running my own tests. If I remember, I'll report back here with my results and opinions. Obviously 99% of you still likely have 5 billion power saving features on, unstable memory kits, ETC. But I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. If you actually have issues and you've fully eliminated the possibility of it being the software/hardware, then it's either EMI or power quality issues such as voltage droop or voltage spikes.
Did I mention wild fluctuations/extreme harmonics? I don't think I did, I don't even have the proper equipment to test for them, let alone the adequate electrical technical background to say so. Hence I asked the CS about what could possibly be wrong in the electric grid that might negatively effect the power supple, and since his answer was too vague I just didn't reiterate.

Also, "Even though your PSU and motherboard filter probably 90+% or more." Source please?

Nevertheless, I'm not dismissive towards anything, I'm always open to suggestions as long as they are backed by solid reasoning/foundation and not some random disconnect/connect something and pooofff lag is gone. I'm also concerned about digging for them 5 billion power saving features when I know that the unaffected players have absolutely no inpulg or desync while not even knowing jackshit on what Bios is or how to change their OS's power from balanced to performance. I've lived through the Bios and RAM troubleshooting era, and it was quite depressing to say the least lol.

Until now, the only meaningful guaranteed way to gain back input responsiveness and get rid of the desync and stutters is to completely format the PC, not even resetting it works! A complete format using Windows Media Installation tool and a USB hard drive. Today I'll try the app Deepfreeze. I'll see how it goes, it has a trial run period, hopefully its enough to confirm whether it's a viable option. If it is, then I'll just invest another $60 into this issue and call it a day. I'll update you guys on this!
My source is every single power supply review published by toms hardware/basic electronic design. All designs of high performance devices have filtering and so does your motherboard. People who design electronics know that AC is dirty. You don't play on raw AC mains. If you have really bad motherboards & power supplies maybe it's not as good. Speaking from experience I've had awful power supplies and still didn't feel much of a difference which is why I believe it's power sag/spikes rather than interference/noise. It takes a insane amount of interference to mess with your setup. I mean so powerful to the point where it'd be obvious as to what's causing it.
Your 90+% figure was quite specific, this is why I asked you to provide a source for your fact dumping. Don't take it personal nor a challenge, I'm just merely at a point where I just cannot take anyone's random claim for it's face value anymore. Linking one or 2 sources with examples would've been easy since you know where to find them.
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Eonds
Posts: 262
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 10:34

Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by Eonds » 26 Jan 2023, 05:22

Thatweirdinputlag wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 04:46
Eonds wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:55
Thatweirdinputlag wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:40
Eonds wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 09:04


You should be more worried about if you're actually get the proper incoming AC and not wild fluctuations/extreme harmonics (even though your PSU and motherboard filter probably 90+% or more. A true lab AC generator is probably something that could eliminate the possibility of it being specifically linked to the electricity. I think more reasonably it's linked to just poor power quality. I'm currently running my own tests. If I remember, I'll report back here with my results and opinions. Obviously 99% of you still likely have 5 billion power saving features on, unstable memory kits, ETC. But I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. If you actually have issues and you've fully eliminated the possibility of it being the software/hardware, then it's either EMI or power quality issues such as voltage droop or voltage spikes.
Did I mention wild fluctuations/extreme harmonics? I don't think I did, I don't even have the proper equipment to test for them, let alone the adequate electrical technical background to say so. Hence I asked the CS about what could possibly be wrong in the electric grid that might negatively effect the power supple, and since his answer was too vague I just didn't reiterate.

Also, "Even though your PSU and motherboard filter probably 90+% or more." Source please?

Nevertheless, I'm not dismissive towards anything, I'm always open to suggestions as long as they are backed by solid reasoning/foundation and not some random disconnect/connect something and pooofff lag is gone. I'm also concerned about digging for them 5 billion power saving features when I know that the unaffected players have absolutely no inpulg or desync while not even knowing jackshit on what Bios is or how to change their OS's power from balanced to performance. I've lived through the Bios and RAM troubleshooting era, and it was quite depressing to say the least lol.

Until now, the only meaningful guaranteed way to gain back input responsiveness and get rid of the desync and stutters is to completely format the PC, not even resetting it works! A complete format using Windows Media Installation tool and a USB hard drive. Today I'll try the app Deepfreeze. I'll see how it goes, it has a trial run period, hopefully its enough to confirm whether it's a viable option. If it is, then I'll just invest another $60 into this issue and call it a day. I'll update you guys on this!
My source is every single power supply review published by toms hardware/basic electronic design. All designs of high performance devices have filtering and so does your motherboard. People who design electronics know that AC is dirty. You don't play on raw AC mains. If you have really bad motherboards & power supplies maybe it's not as good. Speaking from experience I've had awful power supplies and still didn't feel much of a difference which is why I believe it's power sag/spikes rather than interference/noise. It takes a insane amount of interference to mess with your setup. I mean so powerful to the point where it'd be obvious as to what's causing it.
Your 90+% figure was quite specific, this is why I asked you to provide a source for your fact dumping. Don't take it personal nor a challenge, I'm just merely at a point where I just cannot take anyone's random claim for it's face value anymore. Linking one or 2 sources with examples would've been easy since you know where to find them.
It literally doesn't matter where I got the figure anyway even If I were to provide it, It would add 0 benefit to the conversation. I won't bother gathering all that data either. If you want clean AC buy a AC regenerator/ Lab grade AC power supply. Those can have 0.01% distortion and almost perfect power. Your PSU has EMI/RFI filtering built into it because the designer knows AC mains are dirty (bad psus dont have them to save $). What if I told you I am the source ? Me providing a source doesn't do anyone good. What does good for everyone is me telling you most PSU's have EMI/RFI filters built into them. Your motherboard as well has filtering. If you're concerned with such things I suggest taking a look at the PCB design of your items instead of shouting "source". Then look online for reviews of the equipment from people such as gamersnexus, tomshardware, audiosciencereview, etc. These people talk about complex topics and how it relates to audio/video. My whole point is once you start shouting proof/source/etc you lose the ability to critically think for yourself. Assuming people have checked if their outlets are grounded for example, & bought decent equipment could have power sag/ spikes which makes infinitely more sense than noise.

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F1zus
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Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by F1zus » 26 Jan 2023, 18:38

Eonds wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 22:48
KingAzar wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 17:35
Will I get any benefit from AC Power Filer / Power Conditioner?
power filters don't correct voltage swings in the upside or downside. They simple attempt to filter noise. Your PSU/MOBO typically does this really well (not saying there isn't room for improvement). You may benefit from it but probably not unless you have god awful equipment. What you would benefit from is making sure you're getting a constant stable AC voltage being fed into the equipment.
Voltage fluctuations are not the cause of input lag. The main reason for input lag is the high level of harmonic distortion.
Do you think your motherboard is safe from this? No. Harmonic distortion passes through the power supply, weakens, enters the motherboard chipset and disrupts its operation.
Various errors appear in the chipset.
After that, the error correction function is enabled. This function causes the input lag. The error correction function delays the signal from the chipset to your usb devices.
This function is similar to ECC ddr.
I measured harmonic distortion right inside the computer using a sound card and found out that during the day (13.00-23.00) there is about 15-20% harmonic distortion in the electrical network.
At night, the level drops to 10%.
This is why the computer is more responsive at night.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Jan 2023, 21:41

Eonds wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 05:22
What if I told you I am the source ? Me providing a source doesn't do anyone good.
(Aside)

Still, I recommend forum members here nuance it in your earlier posts -- things like adding "(as an example, this figure may vary)".

Or some appropriate nuancing to indicate the distinction between personal original research and professional vetted research (and the blurry continuum in between).

...Both research sources AND personal anecdotes are useful, but it's best not to be blurry/ambiguous here, to avoid misrepresenting personal-only experience as a multipeer-reviewed research paper. We're much stricter about this in other parts of these forums, but we'd like to see a smidge more discipline in the EMI forum, as Blur Busters is merely tolerating the EMI forums' existence (keep/delete the whole forum). If the average professionalism/vetting at least raises a smidge, that will help things. To us, it's simply a Restaurant At The End Of Universe, for the Blur Busters sphere. More researcher batting percentage, less conspiracy tinfoilhattery batting percentage. I'm watching the telemetry/data of this forum. Thank you...

Not addressed to you specifically, Eonds. Just heed that I've got a finger on the "Archive Forum" button for the whole "EMI" discussion forum, discontinuing the entire "Rare/Electrical" section of this website as 100% read only with no new posts allowed. It's currently the most misbehaved forum here, which puts this whole website section on probation.

Great posts here, great discussion here, EMI is indeed a real problem, but it's polluted by too much useless noise (interference) and conspiracy stuff (tinfoil hattery interference shields). Puns. Ha.

(P.S. Don't go "OtherForumMemberBlamingSplaining", either. Tame them; calmly reply to them, show respectful work, help de-trollify the next reply, without being a troll onself, or if fail then click the Report Post icon where appropriate, etc, etc, work to raise the tides, to lift all reputational boats. And we can keep the forum worthy under the Blur Busters umbrella. EMI is already an issue in the refresh rate race to retina refresh rates, but the forum audience here is a problematic audience mix)

...Again, not specifically addressed to you, not specific addressed to this thread, just the whole "Rare/Electrical" members of the entire audience continuum. Let's make sure we work together to keep this forum worthy of continued existence from the metrics of Blur Busters point of view...

(/Aside)
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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Eonds
Posts: 262
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 10:34

Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by Eonds » 27 Jan 2023, 00:08

F1zus wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 18:38
Eonds wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 22:48
KingAzar wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 17:35
Will I get any benefit from AC Power Filer / Power Conditioner?
power filters don't correct voltage swings in the upside or downside. They simple attempt to filter noise. Your PSU/MOBO typically does this really well (not saying there isn't room for improvement). You may benefit from it but probably not unless you have god awful equipment. What you would benefit from is making sure you're getting a constant stable AC voltage being fed into the equipment.
Voltage fluctuations are not the cause of input lag. The main reason for input lag is the high level of harmonic distortion.
Do you think your motherboard is safe from this? No. Harmonic distortion passes through the power supply, weakens, enters the motherboard chipset and disrupts its operation.
Various errors appear in the chipset.
After that, the error correction function is enabled. This function causes the input lag. The error correction function delays the signal from the chipset to your usb devices.
This function is similar to ECC ddr.
I measured harmonic distortion right inside the computer using a sound card and found out that during the day (13.00-23.00) there is about 15-20% harmonic distortion in the electrical network.
At night, the level drops to 10%.
This is why the computer is more responsive at night.
So get a better power supply that's been measured (EX: AX1600i) - Toms hardware reviews

Thatweirdinputlag
Posts: 305
Joined: 27 Aug 2021, 14:09

Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by Thatweirdinputlag » 27 Jan 2023, 01:13

Eonds wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 05:22

Your PSU has EMI/RFI filtering built into it because the designer knows AC mains are dirty (bad psus dont have them to save $). What if I told you I am the source ? Me providing a source doesn't do anyone good. What does good for everyone is me telling you most PSU's have EMI/RFI filters built into them.

My whole point is once you start shouting proof/source/etc you lose the ability to critically think for yourself.
EMC compliance? Unless you've imported a power supply that was made in Zambia by a guy who works in a meat shop and that power supply miraculously made its way through customs then it must have an EMI Filter. Every single PC Power Supply must have an EMI filter as to be compliant to those standards. Sorry pal, there ain't no cutting costs in this area, maybe different components inside the filter itself? But the whole filtering has to exist.

Let me explain to you vaguely why unregulated fact dumping is just misleading; for any new member reading that specific comment of yours, and lacks some sort of background knowledge about PSUs and how they work will have one thought stuck in his head, which is "Spending more money on a PSU = guarantees having an EMI filter". Now you've taken extra money out of that poor guy's pocket for absolutely no reason at all.

Aside from that, what does critical thinking has to do with needing a validation or proof for an oddly specific "claimed" fact. Since when asking for validation or proof is forbidden? I'll take you as the proof if you were sharing an experience, and you worded that experience with less absolutism.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 21:41
Just heed that I've got a finger on the "Archive Forum" button for the whole "EMI" discussion forum.
Part time volunteers for this sub-forum instead? To be fair, aside from that last arrogant guy that came in with bulks and heaps of paragraphs that made zero sense. I think the forum has been okay, even with less of you and the 2 other mods hanging around lately. I can tell you've been busy, 2023 - I've read the post, gratz! Eager for the OLED collab.
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KingAzar
Posts: 117
Joined: 28 Dec 2022, 00:54

Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by KingAzar » 27 Jan 2023, 12:16

Today electrician was installing new outlet for my new laundry room. I explained to him my issue and he said that he has very expensive audio system at home that used to run with power conditioner, filter, you named it. He said the day he installed a dedicated circuit line in his audio room, everything changed and it’s also a set up that he recommends for his audiophile client.

Well since he his doing the laundry new circuit, he will install a new dedicated circuit for my office! Let’s see how it goes in few hours
9CD65385-FA89-4527-8453-916361CFDD7C.jpeg
9CD65385-FA89-4527-8453-916361CFDD7C.jpeg (1.83 MiB) Viewed 1865 times

triplese
Posts: 130
Joined: 13 Dec 2021, 12:20

Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by triplese » 27 Jan 2023, 13:27

F1zus wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 18:38
Voltage fluctuations are not the cause of input lag. The main reason for input lag is the high level of harmonic distortion.
Do you think your motherboard is safe from this? No. Harmonic distortion passes through the power supply, weakens, enters the motherboard chipset and disrupts its operation.
Various errors appear in the chipset.
After that, the error correction function is enabled. This function causes the input lag. The error correction function delays the signal from the chipset to your usb devices.
This function is similar to ECC ddr.
I measured harmonic distortion right inside the computer using a sound card and found out that during the day (13.00-23.00) there is about 15-20% harmonic distortion in the electrical network.
At night, the level drops to 10%.
This is why the computer is more responsive at night.
Okay, to confirm this theory you need relatively cheap ($100) analyzer like this to compare good and bad places.
But what possibility to combat harmonics at home? Any device is very big and costs thousands of dollars.

KingAzar
Posts: 117
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Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by KingAzar » 27 Jan 2023, 17:48

KingAzar wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 12:16
Today electrician was installing new outlet for my new laundry room. I explained to him my issue and he said that he has very expensive audio system at home that used to run with power conditioner, filter, you named it. He said the day he installed a dedicated circuit line in his audio room, everything changed and it’s also a set up that he recommends for his audiophile client.

Well since he his doing the laundry new circuit, he will install a new dedicated circuit for my office! Let’s see how it goes in few hours

9CD65385-FA89-4527-8453-916361CFDD7C.jpeg
The dedicated circuit did not work, Interference from the other circuit is still impacting this new circuit from the same panel. Now I guess I need to filter the power and make it clean!

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F1zus
Posts: 131
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Re: [EMI] 1500mV When computer is running!!!

Post by F1zus » 27 Jan 2023, 18:16

No, such an analyzer will not suit us.
You need an analyzer that shows frequencies from 50Hz to 1MHz.
To combat harmonics are suitable:
1) online ups
2) inverter voltage stabilizers
3) isolating transformers
4) network filters.
Online ups and inverter regulators perfectly suppress harmonic distortion and have no more than 5% distortion at the output.
I will be testing these devices soon.

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