Where is the evidence?

Separate area for niche lag issues including unexpected causes and/or electromagnetic interference (ECC = retransmits = lag). Interference (EMI, EMF) of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction latencies like a bad modem connection. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI. Please read this before entering sub-forum.
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IMPORTANT:
This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
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Le Ebin Tw34k3r
Posts: 2
Joined: 27 Jan 2023, 01:54

Where is the evidence?

Post by Le Ebin Tw34k3r » 27 Jan 2023, 02:15

I see a lot of threads, but besides theorycrafting and what often appears to be wild speculating and "finding faults anywhere but myself" type of situations, I don't see a single piece of evidence that proves that, say, "bad grounding" or whatever can have a major impact on latency.
Even the head admin only states: "yes it is plausible and real, just because noone talkes about it publicly, does not make it less real. Educated people do talk about it all the time".
This would be called appeal to authority, a common logical fallacy applied on the internet.
Stating the fact that educated people "talk about the topic" does not make claims such as electricity having a noticeable influence on latency any more true. You need to post actual evidence.
"Personal experience" is not evidence, it is hearsay.

The only thing that is immediately apparent is that people are absurdly overconfident in their ability to detect microsecond differences in latency which are allegedly caused by electricity and supposedly even appear irregularly.
Now, humans are capable if unbelievable feats, but also insanely suspectible to logical fallacies and psychological influences of any kind. Mood and beliefs for example both massively influence perception. That is why, for example, a fighter has to believe that he will win the fight in order to maximize his chances to win the fight, because if he thought otherwise, his beliefs will influence his actions negatively.
So again, I find that highly unlikely (that people reliably detect minute differences) and in times of LDAT, Frameview, Syslat and easily available 960ms cameras (most modern smartphones have a slowmotion mode), there really isn't any excuse to not search and deliver any evidence.

However, instead of ever trying to prove evidence, people seem more hell-bent on insisting their feelings are correct and finding a solution.
So it becomes more of an "ego-thing".

The scientific method requires a problem is determined and then a solution for said problem is developed. Example: Problem: Ocean water is too salty to drink. Solution: Develop water filter that removes salt.

Not the other way around.

TL;DR:
Where is the evidence?

Thatweirdinputlag
Posts: 305
Joined: 27 Aug 2021, 14:09

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Thatweirdinputlag » 27 Jan 2023, 10:23

Le Ebin Tw34k3r wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 02:15
I see a lot of threads, but besides theorycrafting and what often appears to be wild speculating and "finding faults anywhere but myself" type of situations, I don't see a single piece of evidence that proves that, say, "bad grounding" or whatever can have a major impact on latency.
Even the head admin only states: "yes it is plausible and real, just because noone talkes about it publicly, does not make it less real. Educated people do talk about it all the time".
This would be called appeal to authority, a common logical fallacy applied on the internet.
Stating the fact that educated people "talk about the topic" does not make claims such as electricity having a noticeable influence on latency any more true. You need to post actual evidence.
"Personal experience" is not evidence, it is hearsay.

The only thing that is immediately apparent is that people are absurdly overconfident in their ability to detect microsecond differences in latency which are allegedly caused by electricity and supposedly even appear irregularly.
Now, humans are capable if unbelievable feats, but also insanely suspectible to logical fallacies and psychological influences of any kind. Mood and beliefs for example both massively influence perception. That is why, for example, a fighter has to believe that he will win the fight in order to maximize his chances to win the fight, because if he thought otherwise, his beliefs will influence his actions negatively.
So again, I find that highly unlikely (that people reliably detect minute differences) and in times of LDAT, Frameview, Syslat and easily available 960ms cameras (most modern smartphones have a slowmotion mode), there really isn't any excuse to not search and deliver any evidence.

However, instead of ever trying to prove evidence, people seem more hell-bent on insisting their feelings are correct and finding a solution.
So it becomes more of an "ego-thing".

The scientific method requires a problem is determined and then a solution for said problem is developed. Example: Problem: Ocean water is too salty to drink. Solution: Develop water filter that removes salt.

Not the other way around.

TL;DR:
Where is the evidence?
Unfortunately not all of us, if any, have access to the sufficient amount of funds to purchase said equipment and troubleshoot with them. We still don't even know where to start troubleshooting. Somehow we rely on how the game feels, sadly, but it does hold some legitimacy. A CS player that dumped 5-6 hours a day for several years can reliably tell you when something is wrong/different with the game inputs/feel in general, just as changing the breaks on your car after using them for x amount of years. Or how the new bed mattress feels against the old one.

This issue is far from a perception-derived phenomenon. As I mentioned in another post, if it was up to perception then everyone would've experienced something totally different from the others. Yet, you still see players coming from different unconnected communities playing a vast majority of different games to share an experience of that specific issue that immensely resembles what everyone else is experiencing.

You can call it pseudo-science or mass perception, the issue is there. I definitely did not wake up one day to randomly ask google why my game feel extremely sluggish and slow then afterwards I decided maybe my game actually feels sluggish and slow. And I most definitely did not perceive something that was not there. Btw, that first ever search alone got me just about 2 dozen threads filled with players sharing the same experience, with one of those threads dating back to 2014 if I remember correctly. Unfortunately the problem is there, and we're trying to find a solution for it, each one at his/her own pace and financial abilities.

Btw, I have gamed on PCs probably for 15 years before I ever encountered the first glimpse of sluggish inputs, never have I thought even for one second before that time that my PC had an issue regarding input-lag. Every 2.5-3 years I used to upgrade and buy whatever top-end model GPU and CPU available at the time of purchase to future proof "to some extent" and not be forced to upgrade annually. Things were just golden back then.
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User avatar
dervu
Posts: 249
Joined: 17 Apr 2020, 18:09

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by dervu » 27 Jan 2023, 10:51

Not everyone is having enough experience and money to go through recording, analyzing and documenting things like that.

You need:
- 1000fps cam
- Some device controlling mouse/keyboard simulating human behavior - would be ideal to not be powered from same power source
Also you need either:
  • Access to two places. To have best results, it would be ideal to have as severe issue as possible to show discrepancy in results
    - Place with issue present
    - Place without issue present
or
  • Place where you can turn issue on and off (so basically knowing the source)
Having all of that, you need to know what to look for in recordings.
Do you look for as simple measurement as input from click to photon latency?
Do you look for latency between mouse starting movement to mouse stopping movement?
Do you look for some inconsistencies in display that are not so simple to catch when you do not know what are you looking for?

Most people tell about mouse behaving slow or too fast. You can measure distance travelled in time on monitor vs inputs.
Is it enough?
Maybe it is something like those inconsistencies in display that throw off user input while reacting to them.

Similiar thing like when you switch from 300fps to 60fps. Can you aim the same or are you going to be affected until you get used to it?
With this issue you will get those switches all the time occurring with different frequency.

I tried to find anything by basic measurements using 1000fps cam, but input simulating device was connected to PC emulating mouse, so it could be affected by the same thing as PC is, so results could be invalid. Still working on having good environment and all equipment to have anything close to proof. However I care more about having proof correlating with measurements of this phenomenon than just showing differences between good and bad.

I have already some of these points, some are in progress. Even if you get that evidence showing side by side difference, does it help anyone? Is someone going to get interested by coming to my place and measure with hardware worth at least more than 10x worth of my PC setup to at least find the source?

I guess to catch the attention, it would need showing those things mentioned above + correlated data showing interference or whatever it is.
Otherwise it is just another video where you can say that someone set different sensitivity or people would comment that it is not conclusive, because human is not perfect, so inputs are not consistent.

So, it's not cheap, not easy, takes time. Still surprised there is no evidence that would be considered worthwhile by anyone to take it seriously?
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Future
Posts: 51
Joined: 06 Dec 2022, 07:04

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Future » 27 Jan 2023, 11:01

I'm going to quote myself because noone replied in the other thread:
Future wrote:
24 Jan 2023, 13:06
One thought bothers me for a very long time. We are all here because we have a problem and our problem is clear. But it hasn't been like that always, has it? When everything was fine and we had no input lag, what if we had the same EMI or the same power related problems we think we have now? I mean what if the thing that causes the issue is not power related or no intereferance causes it? If we assume that its interferance or power related problem, how do pro players never experienced any of this shit when they change locations so often? Literally 10 out of 10 people only here on this forum, including me, tried so many different locations and the issue persists everywhere. It's ridiculous to think that in all of the places we were at, there were EMI/RFI or power related problems. And what guarantees that even if in fact there are EMI/RFI or power related problems, they would cause these issues? If so, then it would be reproductible. You can just try to emit EMI or RFI or to remove the grounding and see if the issue appears then.

Unixko
Posts: 212
Joined: 04 Jul 2020, 08:28

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Unixko » 27 Jan 2023, 11:48

Le Ebin Tw34k3r wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 02:15
I see a lot of threads, but besides theorycrafting and what often appears to be wild speculating and "finding faults anywhere but myself" type of situations, I don't see a single piece of evidence that proves that, say, "bad grounding" or whatever can have a major impact on latency.
Even the head admin only states: "yes it is plausible and real, just because noone talkes about it publicly, does not make it less real. Educated people do talk about it all the time".
This would be called appeal to authority, a common logical fallacy applied on the internet.
Stating the fact that educated people "talk about the topic" does not make claims such as electricity having a noticeable influence on latency any more true. You need to post actual evidence.
"Personal experience" is not evidence, it is hearsay.

The only thing that is immediately apparent is that people are absurdly overconfident in their ability to detect microsecond differences in latency which are allegedly caused by electricity and supposedly even appear irregularly.
Now, humans are capable if unbelievable feats, but also insanely suspectible to logical fallacies and psychological influences of any kind. Mood and beliefs for example both massively influence perception. That is why, for example, a fighter has to believe that he will win the fight in order to maximize his chances to win the fight, because if he thought otherwise, his beliefs will influence his actions negatively.
So again, I find that highly unlikely (that people reliably detect minute differences) and in times of LDAT, Frameview, Syslat and easily available 960ms cameras (most modern smartphones have a slowmotion mode), there really isn't any excuse to not search and deliver any evidence.

However, instead of ever trying to prove evidence, people seem more hell-bent on insisting their feelings are correct and finding a solution.
So it becomes more of an "ego-thing".

The scientific method requires a problem is determined and then a solution for said problem is developed. Example: Problem: Ocean water is too salty to drink. Solution: Develop water filter that removes salt.

Not the other way around.

TL;DR:
Where is the evidence?
it is fucked up perception but this people never gonna understand that doesnt matter how hard you try to convice them they think that what they can see or feel is a real
they never consider that you can create your own reality base of how they behave and think

MegaMelmek
Posts: 235
Joined: 21 Jan 2021, 12:54

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by MegaMelmek » 27 Jan 2023, 12:00

Wrong wrong wrong….
i am in gaming - Counter strike since v 1.4 allmost 20y
so if someone want tell how is my feeling thats kind a wierd…
If you never was on working PC you maybe not belive or spot the diference.
I am 100% sure that there something wrong with electricity. Prove is the iron how the hell can iron make game smoother? Can you explain? Can you?

Future
Posts: 51
Joined: 06 Dec 2022, 07:04

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Future » 27 Jan 2023, 12:29

MegaMelmek wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 12:00
Wrong wrong wrong….
i am in gaming - Counter strike since v 1.4 allmost 20y
so if someone want tell how is my feeling thats kind a wierd…
If you never was on working PC you maybe not belive or spot the diference.
I am 100% sure that there something wrong with electricity. Prove is the iron how the hell can iron make game smoother? Can you explain? Can you?
I can. It doesn't make your game smoother. There is no explanation, even theoretically. Same with the guy who plugged an outlet tester and magically his input lag dissapeared. Pure placebo. Also you have to provide proofs for the claims you make.

Unixko
Posts: 212
Joined: 04 Jul 2020, 08:28

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Unixko » 27 Jan 2023, 12:31

MegaMelmek wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 12:00
Wrong wrong wrong….
i am in gaming - Counter strike since v 1.4 allmost 20y
so if someone want tell how is my feeling thats kind a wierd…
If you never was on working PC you maybe not belive or spot the diference.
I am 100% sure that there something wrong with electricity. Prove is the iron how the hell can iron make game smoother? Can you explain? Can you?
you was able to study about this issue all fixes all non senses now you can do that same think about perception and human brain
and for your question with iron
you interrupting your own magnetic field

MegaMelmek
Posts: 235
Joined: 21 Jan 2021, 12:54

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by MegaMelmek » 27 Jan 2023, 16:18

Future wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 12:29
MegaMelmek wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 12:00
Wrong wrong wrong….
i am in gaming - Counter strike since v 1.4 allmost 20y
so if someone want tell how is my feeling thats kind a wierd…
If you never was on working PC you maybe not belive or spot the diference.
I am 100% sure that there something wrong with electricity. Prove is the iron how the hell can iron make game smoother? Can you explain? Can you?
I can. It doesn't make your game smoother. There is no explanation, even theoretically. Same with the guy who plugged an outlet tester and magically his input lag dissapeared. Pure placebo. Also you have to provide proofs for the claims you make.
The proof will be higher avg dmg per round compare to playing without iron - sure placebo. Its like F1 pilot will be told that they boost his engine (but they not) will he be able go faster? Probaly not right maybe in some laps but that % will be realy low because there will be 0 upgrade.
If iron is not working for you maybe you got diferent issue than i have…
What unixko is saying its total non sense- you are from SVK right - come to CZ i will show you positive impact have iron on gameplay

Future
Posts: 51
Joined: 06 Dec 2022, 07:04

Re: Where is the evidence?

Post by Future » 27 Jan 2023, 16:55

MegaMelmek wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 16:18
Future wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 12:29
MegaMelmek wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 12:00
Wrong wrong wrong….
i am in gaming - Counter strike since v 1.4 allmost 20y
so if someone want tell how is my feeling thats kind a wierd…
If you never was on working PC you maybe not belive or spot the diference.
I am 100% sure that there something wrong with electricity. Prove is the iron how the hell can iron make game smoother? Can you explain? Can you?
I can. It doesn't make your game smoother. There is no explanation, even theoretically. Same with the guy who plugged an outlet tester and magically his input lag dissapeared. Pure placebo. Also you have to provide proofs for the claims you make.
The proof will be higher avg dmg per round compare to playing without iron - sure placebo. Its like F1 pilot will be told that they boost his engine (but they not) will he be able go faster? Probaly not right maybe in some laps but that % will be realy low because there will be 0 upgrade.
If iron is not working for you maybe you got diferent issue than i have…
What unixko is saying its total non sense- you are from SVK right - come to CZ i will show you positive impact have iron on gameplay
That's exactly what I am trying to explain and what the OP is also talking about, placebo is not a proof and every theory must be supported with facts. Average damage is a variable, not a fact. It's not a surprise that if you imagine you have no issue, you will be able to do more damage to your opponents, that's how placebo works. Sorry to dissapoint you, but if you claim that an iron would make your game smoother, then most likely your issue is imaginary. Iron is not working for me because it doesn't work for anybody, not because my issue is different. As for Unxiko, seems like he doesn't believe in input lag at all, he thinks it's imaginary at all, which is absolutely false. Input lag exists, but I highly doubt all these electricity and interferance stuff can cause it. Moreover, I think this is the last thing a bad electricity or an interferance would cause.

And because it seems everyone avoids my questions, one more time:

1. Why do pro players have never experienced such an issue when they change appartments, hotels and bootcamps so often?
2. Do you think that all the places they have been were with perfect electricity and without any EMI/RFI?
3. If bad electricity or EMI/RFI were the problems, why can't you reproduce the issue somewhere where it doesn't exist?
4. Where is the evidence that even if the electricity is bad or there is EMI/RFI it would cause exactly that kind of a problem?
5. How come you played with the same electricity when you had no input lag and all of a sudden it started causing this particular problem? I mean, obviously the input lag hasn't appeared from nowhere. It wasn't there before, otherwise how would you know you have input lag?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FvyhIbfc74

Here you can see a young pro player from Navi junior asked on stream about input lag. Shortly, what he says is that he has never heard of any pro player complaining about something like that. He also says that he changed more places than you could imagine and he never had that problem nowhere. Now tell me, whom do I have to believe? Random people on the internet who spread non-sense theories how they moved their wardrobe in the other corner of the room and that fixed their input lag or pro players who earn their money, playing the games I play?

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