[Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Separate area for niche lag issues including unexpected causes and/or electromagnetic interference (ECC = retransmits = lag). Interference (EMI, EMF) of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction latencies like a bad modem connection. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI. Please read this before entering sub-forum.
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This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
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skylit
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by skylit » 21 Apr 2020, 17:07

nuggify wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 15:33

A thicker and shorter DP cable will mean 2 things: It is a worst antenna for the interference (shorter), and it has additional shielding (thicker). That is likely the reason the short cable preforms better. I have toyed a lot around with the idea of this EMI/EMF only really affecting the monitor display like you said however I do not think that is the case. For one this affects the network strength in my home, and it also negatively affects the audio for my PC. This has nothing to do with the monitor so I believe it is just high levels of EMF that are signal blocking/interfering with all of our data signal connections.

I've actually dug deeper into this over the past few days since I have off for the time being and I believe its a grounding issue as discussed on previous post in this thread. Disabling most of the breakers/electric sub sections to my place helps significantly in improving overall response to a point where it feels no different between a house with decently lower EMI, even with the original DP/Other aftermarket cables.

What I found out is that my Keurig coffee maker contributes to significant interference in my lines. (Tested with a AM Radio on low frequencies.) It does not matter where I plug the coffee marker in or if its off or "on" ...which clearly seems to indicate a grounding issue, or what I would like to assume is one.

There's other electronics on these lines and the response does improve further if disabled.. its just I cant leave all my appliances unplugged for the sake of a "working" computer.

Sucks... I assume the original VG248QE has much lower input lag to mask these issues? There was likely an underlying problem here which I didn't know about since other computers I've used at different locations always felt a bit more responsive regardless. Weird.

If you would have told me EMI impacts general usage and gaming 5+ years ago, I would have though the person was just making excuses, but Its kinda obvious here.

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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Apr 2020, 17:20

skylit wrote:
21 Apr 2020, 17:07
If you would have told me EMI impacts general usage and gaming 5+ years ago, I would have though the person was just making excuses, but Its kinda obvious here.
Yeah, a modern computer is error-corrected to the wazoo and all the interference can sometimes cause a computer to simply stall briefly (lag!) instead of suddenly crash.

Weird things like a noisy solar-panel inverter, and your Keurig coffee machine....can be surprising sources of interference.

It's still extremely difficult to diagnose and solve these unexpected sources. If you rent your premises and cannot fix anything in your electricity -- let me know if you buy a high end inline UPS (good enough to double as a power conditioner + voltage regulator) then please let us know your results. There's no perfect one-size-fits-all solution but it might eliminate the need for you to unplug your Keurig.
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by skylit » 22 Apr 2020, 14:25

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Apr 2020, 17:20
skylit wrote:
21 Apr 2020, 17:07
If you would have told me EMI impacts general usage and gaming 5+ years ago, I would have though the person was just making excuses, but Its kinda obvious here.
Yeah, a modern computer is error-corrected to the wazoo and all the interference can sometimes cause a computer to simply stall briefly (lag!) instead of suddenly crash.

Weird things like a noisy solar-panel inverter, and your Keurig coffee machine....can be surprising sources of interference.

It's still extremely difficult to diagnose and solve these unexpected sources. If you rent your premises and cannot fix anything in your electricity -- let me know if you buy a high end inline UPS (good enough to double as a power conditioner + voltage regulator) then please let us know your results. There's no perfect one-size-fits-all solution but it might eliminate the need for you to unplug your Keurig.
I think the only real mitigation to this problem would be buying a high DB line noise filter/conditioner. A lot of popular ones (<$150) are rather poor at filtration or they help but don't completely solve the issue due to cheaper electronics. I know I'm personally not willing to buy a 300+ USD Panamax unit just to have a higher quality line noise filtration to game on when I can just disable a couple breakers for a similar result lol.

Theres those "Greenwave filters" but that seems rather sketch to me and I doubt it will fix anything.

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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Apr 2020, 14:34

skylit wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:25
I think the only real mitigation to this problem would be buying a high DB line noise filter/conditioner. A lot of popular ones (<$150) are rather poor at filtration or they help but don't completely solve the issue due to cheaper electronics even though its marketed in such a way. I know I'm personally not willing to buy a 300+ USD Panamax unit just to have a higher quality line noise filtration to game on when I can just disable a couple breakers for a similar result lol.
There are multiple causes of EMI, that also transcends noise filtration.

For example, a noise filter won't help cables or computers that are parked on a wall opposite a power-pole transformer or building transformer in the next room or even a power pole transformer attached to the side of a brick building (inches away from your computer). Or even a 200 amp wire going inside the wall. The EMI field can be strong enough to penetrate brick walls and inject EMI into some computers.

There are many, many, many EMI stones to worry about, and sometimes a noise filter doesn't even fix it.

Simple changes

- Try simple power filters anyway.
Sometimes the EMI is lightweight enough that it is zapped by the filter. I've even seen a simple noise filter solve a specific EMI problem, while other times you really need the Panamax-league stuff just to help. Sometimes "good enough" is "good enough".

- If you're upgrading anyway, try a better 80PLUS Platnium power supply
They usually contain better filtering built in, sometimes superior to ultracheap filters. And you'll save some electricity anyway, or more reliably power your GPU with cleaner power that has less inside-case EMI than cheap power supplies. EMI multiple-win.

- Try moving all power sources away from your computer. (routers, power cables, walls that might contain hidden wiring). Make sure that the only nearby powered source is the power cable that needs to power the computer. You know that LG 5K monitor that zapped when a router was nearby? Exact same thing. It happens more often than you think (even if not as often as that LG 5K hypersensitive-EMI-sensitivity defect). Even a semi-malfunctioning 1985 Nintendo AC adaptor has injected some EMI into a computer that was sitting 4 inches away from that AC adaptor plug, Watch your nearby EMI sources. MOVE computers at least 12" to 24" away from walls! Those walls may contain big electric wires that carry lots of power (= lots of EMI) that is feeding a laundry machine. Even raise the computer above the floor, if you are unfortunate to live in a condo right above a mechanical floor. Those big-ass air conditioning pumps inject lots of EMI to nearby stuff.

- The rules of squares is your EMI best friend.
Moving 12 inches, 24 inches, 36 inches, 0.5 meter, 1 meter sometimes makes a HUGE difference.
- No routers or modems sitting near your PC. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger. (from EMI perspective)
- Only one power wire (for your PC) separated away from the other wires that feed your computer (USB, SATA, HDMI, DP, etc)
- PC away from appliances / electric heaters / air conditioners
- PC away from wall wart boxes / power bricks / AC adaptors
- PC away from walls/floors (hidden wires/transformers broadcasting EMI towards your computer)
- PC away from monitors
- Etc, etc, etc.

Dirty electricity is a problem but EMI can come from other sources too. The "LG 5K EMI weirdness" happens often in much more subtle ways (EMI-induced minor glitches) to many computers. It's just more occasional (i.e. too infrequent and non-disruptive for the manufacturer to bleat a recall about it. EMI-induced lag is less evil than a monitor going black or noisy).
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by skylit » 22 Apr 2020, 14:43

The PSU factor might be a legit option. I bought a 550w and 650W of the same series gold level seasonic designs. The 550W was superior to the 650W unit subjectively and I'm not exactly sure why. I ultimately decided to keep my older PSU when rebuilding my computer since it wasn't that big of a difference or potentially placebo here.

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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Apr 2020, 14:47

skylit wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:43
The PSU factor might be a legit option. I bought a 550w and 650W of the same series gold level seasonic designs. The 550W was superior to the 650W unit subjectively and I'm not exactly sure why. I ultimately decided to keep my older PSU when rebuilding my computer since it wasn't that big of a difference or potentially placebo here.
Although we cannot know if your PSU was the problem, I can definitively tell you that PSU power rating has no relation to cleanliness of PSU electricity. I've seen MUCH cleaner PSU power (literally over 100x less EMI aka over 20db less) lower-wattage high-quality PSUs. Many manufacturers don't even bother to measure EMI and they just grab off-the-shelf power parts anyway.

It can sometimes be placebo, and sometimes not. Nontheless, EMI is a huge problem that feels more random than many other kinds of computer problems.

I see a general pattern -- power supplies with very very very good power factor correction and very very very good efficiencies -- usually are already doing stuff that is defacto cleaning up the electricity. While even that is not always a perfect rule of thumb -- get something that has genuine UL testing from a name brand with good reviews. What I do know is that it takes a lot more work to get a PSU to comply with the top best 80PLUS ratings. That "extra" work pays dividends in less EMI.

Those brands that actually test their power with their best oscilloscopes at all power loadings and boast fancy graphs on their website. Those are the power supply vendors that are more EMI aware -- the brands that boast true test data rather than just boasting only their brand name. Definitely overpay a little when you see graphsy-boasts.

And when graphs are not available, look at reviewers that measures all the EMI stuff like this. Toms Hardware EMI Testing. Beautiful data is your shopping friend when trying to find a computer power supply with fewer EMI worries.

Image

Other testers (other than Blur Busters) already test power supply EMI, which can help guide selection of a better power supply for your PC.

Definitely avoid cheap unbranded generic PSUs.
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skylit
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by skylit » 22 Apr 2020, 15:00

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:47
skylit wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:43
The PSU factor might be a legit option. I bought a 550w and 650W of the same series gold level seasonic designs. The 550W was superior to the 650W unit subjectively and I'm not exactly sure why. I ultimately decided to keep my older PSU when rebuilding my computer since it wasn't that big of a difference or potentially placebo here.
Although we cannot know if your PSU was the problem, I can definitively tell you that PSU power rating has no relation to cleanliness of PSU electricity.

Oh I know that. I just was confused why the 550w unit felt different than the 650W design which is closer to my older EVGA 550w G2 (nearly identical feel).

Both were Seasonic Gold Focus + units.


Btw the new Zowie XL2746S has ferrite chokes on its DP cable. Now Im tempted to just buy some add ons from amazon just to see if theres any impact on response since they're relatively cheap. The previous BenQ XL2546 I tried awhile back had a basic run of the mill cable. Could just be a supplier choice, but who knows.


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ex4mple
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by ex4mple » 23 Apr 2020, 05:33

Hello everyone, I encountered this problem after moving and have been following similar forums for 3 years and I want to share my observations with you, maybe this can shed light on the problem. many people did not fix this problem by moving and I was successful only in the third apartment, from here I can conclude that this is a complex problem, I think that this is the result of some kind of electromagnetic interference + high-impedance grounding that prevents the interference from leaving the PC, I made this conclusion since I tested in 2 apartments where there is no ground and this problem was there, but as soon as I arrived at the apartment with good ground the problem went away.
After that, I decided to try to make grounding from the PC directly using a copper wire and an iron battery that should have contact with the ground and this manipulation only helps for 30 minutes and I can’t understand why it seems to me that the noise goes away from the PC but then something happens and it returns, maybe first you need to remove the source of interference and only then do grounding, I hope we find the answer

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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by nuggify » 23 Apr 2020, 14:20

ex4mple wrote:
23 Apr 2020, 05:33
Hello everyone, I encountered this problem after moving and have been following similar forums for 3 years and I want to share my observations with you, maybe this can shed light on the problem. many people did not fix this problem by moving and I was successful only in the third apartment, from here I can conclude that this is a complex problem, I think that this is the result of some kind of electromagnetic interference + high-impedance grounding that prevents the interference from leaving the PC, I made this conclusion since I tested in 2 apartments where there is no ground and this problem was there, but as soon as I arrived at the apartment with good ground the problem went away.
After that, I decided to try to make grounding from the PC directly using a copper wire and an iron battery that should have contact with the ground and this manipulation only helps for 30 minutes and I can’t understand why it seems to me that the noise goes away from the PC but then something happens and it returns, maybe first you need to remove the source of interference and only then do grounding, I hope we find the answer
Hey there. I was the one that wrote about the high impedance ground theory and why I believed that to be the case. However I do not think I was totally correct in that. I rather think the main issue is just EMF and how they interact with the PC. Our cables are antennas for this interference and you can easily see this by applying shielding to the cables and observing the affects. PM me if you would like to know more.

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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by MegaWatt » 24 Apr 2020, 04:12

I've no doubt EMI could play a part with system issues and really bad mains input, here's my 2 cents worth or pennies worth if you're in the UK like me :)

1. Switch mode PC power supplies have a transformer that 'should' decouple the mains input from the DC output, I would have thought your mains would have to be really bad before you'd see any problems on the DC output. Running purely off the battery from a UPS should rule this out. Also oscilloscopes are reasonably cheap these days, if this was driving me insane I'd invest in one and check your DC voltage for noise, you could permanently hook it up and watch it, see if any noise appears when you get lag happening. If you have bad mains though it could easily be affecting other pats of your system such as your monitor, that might cause frames to be dropped / random behaviors ?

2. Wouldn't just good shielding take care of most / all EMI problems ? such as a fully enclosed PC case instead of one with a perspex / glass window, all cables shielded including all Ethernet cables. I've worked with products where EMI conformance was needed in terms of leaking out frequencies, and making products immune to external EMI, even the smallest gap in the outer case can cause issues for conformance. So in other words if you have some strong external EMI (e.g mobile phone base station at the bottom of your garden) and you want to shield from it you need to make your PC case literally water tight. Having said that there are parts of your system that typically aren't shielded such as your mouse, when you hold your mouse you could be acting as an antenna for EMI and causing interference for the sensitive circuitry a few cm away from the palm of your hand. I'd try some conductive paint on the inside of the mouse shell and ground that, tricky though, might be easier to identify what external EMI you have first, EMF meters are reasonably cheap these days. Also sitting your Wifi router, mobile phone, cordless landline phone etc next to your PC or locating your PC next to a wall with mains cables routed in or the other side of the wall would be obviously something you'd not do whether you're suffering from EMI or not.

3. In terms of input lag, looking at the mains and EMI seems like the last resort, have you done a detailed look at your PC setup first, in terms of lag I'd always start of by looking at / using 'LatencyMon', not so long ago I pulled out a cheap USB2 card from my PC because the ISR count was just insane from it, that definitely helped. Any bad configurations or drivers causing random lag / problems should be picked up LatencyMon. Watch some of FR33THY vids, he's very good at explaining https://www.youtube.com/user/chrisfreeth/videos
Is it online only games with the problem ? have you done a detailed look at your internet, there's plenty of horror stories where the ISP has in effect screwed up / failed to recognize / fix an issue. Here's one I've been involved with and this is BT one of the biggest ISPs in the UK
https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-setup- ... -p/1930963
Also it could easily be your internal network, I'd use Wireshark and check what's happening, any malware or background task could be firing up randomly and consuming bandwidth, TCPView is another good utility for viewing whats happening on your network.

4. Watch out for temperature issues, this can easily cause slow downs and unexpected behaviors, in the past I had an AMD system where the motherboard regulators were over heating causing the CPU frequency to be throttled down, end result was a laggy / stuttering game, took me quite some time to figure out what was happening. PC cases generally have bad / poorly thought through air flow, when you think about your typical PC it can easily be consuming 500W to 1KW of power, that's going to create a lot of heat, if your overall case cooling isn't decent then any part of your PC could be over heating and causing random issues.

5. I've never had this issue because I've always spec'd my power supplies way above what a PC needs but could your PSU be under rated based on your CPU and graphics card needs ? you're only going to likely have problems when you put your system under load seeing as your typical PC will throttle everything down when doing mundane tasks, might be worth checking ?
Personally I'd say a minimum these days is 750W to be reasonably safe, probably if I was building a new gaming PC I might even go for a 1KW PSU. Go back some number of years and for example 350W was considered ok.

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