[Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Separate area for niche lag issues including unexpected causes and/or electromagnetic interference (ECC = retransmits = lag). Interference (EMI, EMF) of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction latencies like a bad modem connection. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI. Please read this before entering sub-forum.
Forum rules
IMPORTANT:
This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
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triplese
Posts: 130
Joined: 13 Dec 2021, 12:20

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by triplese » 04 Jan 2023, 08:14

dervu wrote:
04 Jan 2023, 06:28

You can check:
- throughput
- ping
- jitter
- bufferbloat
- switching routing using VPN to compare
- check for out of orders packets
- loss
No, you cant.
Throughput you measuring - is throughput to another server, not gaming server. Nobody can guarantee that packets going same way because routing is dynamical (google what is BGP).
Ping - abstract "42 ms" not giving any info. Routing can be not symmetrical. In direction to server you have 5 ms, in opposite - 37. Just because. And no, you cant do anything with it. I dont even saying about ping is ICMP, what is usually be blocked on transit routers or passing in first order, while your other packets stucking in queue.
Jitter - same as ping
Bufferbloat - bshit for guys who cant buy $50 mikrotik\other normal brand router, not chinese crap AND have constantly downloading on full line speed torrents. Games cant create bufferbloat by definition. Just take cable from your ISP and put it to computer, dont open any browser/torrents/dropbox etc and you dont have any bufferbloat on your side. Bufferbloat on ISP side? Possible. Any measurement or evidence and complain? No.
VPN - crutch to change routes, some kind of "plug and pray". Still no measurable indicators, and you have another server which can be overloaded or not etc etc...
"Out of order packets" doesnt exist in UDP, because no packets in UDP, its datagrams. Wrong sequence is dropped by server and you dont know about it, because its UDP, its work like that.
"Loss" - because of ISPs dont give a fuck for proper ICMP implementation you cannot say exactly where your loss starts (of course if you dont using wifi 2.4 and microwave in one room). Netgraph says you have only 5% loss and game is already unplayable and you teleporting everywhere. But what if you have about 0.1% constant loss which netgraph will not show at all? Loss in what direction - to server or from server to you? So many questions...
You can control and measure that only in area from your router to PC (if configured properly) and thats all.

faiqs
Posts: 7
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 07:23

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by faiqs » 08 Jan 2023, 05:42

I am sure this must have been discussed before but has anyone ruled out the possibility of Wifi interfering with the USB 3.0+ ??

Intel had released a paper explaining how it is caused. I have a feeling that it still is the case...

Allow me to explain:

- Since it occurs on all platforms in a certain home i.e. PC, PS, XBOX, Intel, AMD, RAM speed, Card speed is NOT an issue.
- Since it occurs online and offline, (online a lot more apparent but still occurs offline) internet is NOT an issue.
- Since putting in Capacitors, line cleaners, aluminum foils etc., Electricity/EMI might NOT be an issue.
- Since changing homes hasn't helped, EMI again might NOT be an issue.

The only thing left from my point of view at least for myself, is that whenever I have checked different situations, My PC has always been in close vicinity of my own wifi router (even though its connected via lan) or wifi signals from neighboring apartments. (I have always lived in apartment buildings for the last 10 years). So the only common denominator is wifi. And there are ample studies clearly declaring wifi and USB 3.0 not going together at all.

So my question is, has anyone tried using their machine in a wifi free environment ? Absolutely no wifi signal in their vicinity ? None whatsoever?

faiqs
Posts: 7
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 07:23

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by faiqs » 08 Jan 2023, 05:50

One more observation -
It feels as if the system doesn't get correct signal from our input devices like the mice, keyboard or joystick. Ever heard two telephone lines scrambled together? the information goes from point A to point B and you also may be able to understand it, but it is still scrambled. In our scenario, it feels as if our real world input like mouse click or button press or mouse movement or the analogue movement signal is noisy when it reaches our USB port and I feel that there is some signal deterioration either due to EMI (unproven) or wifi (proven). The game which we play tries to recover the signal and forecast our movements but due to poor reception of our inputs, the game plays slow.

Want to run an experiment ? I have mortal kombat 11 wherein I can just let the AI play on my behalf (offline). Instead of me giving the inputs, the AI plays on my behalf and does a few things that I would pre-program it to do (not exact inputs but what characteristics should it have like more grappling, more aggressive, less defensive etc). Guess what, the AI runs just fine, no frame drops, no jitters, no nothing. As soon as I gain control of the character, things start going berserk. As if the application is not receiving proper real world inputs and continuously tries to adjust. Think of this like error correction that happens with IP packets. The error correction causes delay in erroneous packets. But no such mechanism is available for bad reception of the USB port and it is all up to the application to do the math. Where it fails and we get sound glitches, input lags etc. while no actual performance variable shows bad behavior like FPS (until an input is involved). Try to spectate a match between bots. you will find no hangs, no lags, no stutters. At least true for me. Let me know what you think about this.

User avatar
dervu
Posts: 249
Joined: 17 Apr 2020, 18:09

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by dervu » 08 Jan 2023, 06:23

Regarding USB3.0. Isn't it other way around? USB3.0 devices and cables causing interference that could affect GSM and 2.4GHz signal.
Just use 5GHz on router or use wired mouse.
Only case I heard that could cause any issues from using router is when using wireless mouse on 2.4GHz and having router on 2.4GHz in
same room.
As described in this document by Intel, having another USB3 device connected to USB3 port can cause delays depending on placement of wireless mouse dongle.

https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf

So probably the safest way is to avoid this issue when using wireless mouse/keyboard:
- Use 5GHz Wifi
- Use USB2 ports
- Use wireless mouse/keyboard dongle at the end of extension cable instead of directly in port
Ryzen 7950X3D / MSI GeForce RTX 4090 Gaming X Trio / ASUS TUF GAMING X670E-PLUS / 2x16GB DDR5@6000 G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB / ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279QM / Logitech G PRO X SUPERLIGHT / SkyPAD Glass 3.0 / Wooting 60HE / DT 700 PRO X || EMI Input lag issue survivor

MontyTheAverage
Posts: 81
Joined: 11 Nov 2021, 06:39

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by MontyTheAverage » 09 Jan 2023, 01:42

faiqs wrote:
08 Jan 2023, 05:42
I am sure this must have been discussed before but has anyone ruled out the possibility of Wifi interfering with the USB 3.0+ ??

Intel had released a paper explaining how it is caused. I have a feeling that it still is the case...

Allow me to explain:

- Since it occurs on all platforms in a certain home i.e. PC, PS, XBOX, Intel, AMD, RAM speed, Card speed is NOT an issue.
- Since it occurs online and offline, (online a lot more apparent but still occurs offline) internet is NOT an issue.
- Since putting in Capacitors, line cleaners, aluminum foils etc., Electricity/EMI might NOT be an issue.
- Since changing homes hasn't helped, EMI again might NOT be an issue.

The only thing left from my point of view at least for myself, is that whenever I have checked different situations, My PC has always been in close vicinity of my own wifi router (even though its connected via lan) or wifi signals from neighboring apartments. (I have always lived in apartment buildings for the last 10 years). So the only common denominator is wifi. And there are ample studies clearly declaring wifi and USB 3.0 not going together at all.

So my question is, has anyone tried using their machine in a wifi free environment ? Absolutely no wifi signal in their vicinity ? None whatsoever?
I am with you It def has to do something with USB/Internet interference. But issue is it happens even on ethernet and mobile data. I have tried many things to fix this issue but the only thing that kinda fixes it sometimes is this usb ground loop injector from IFI. The desync and mouse input lag improves. It also improves when I restart router. So usb/network things are involved.

woodyfly
Posts: 91
Joined: 03 Jul 2020, 07:53

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by woodyfly » 12 Jan 2023, 22:47

I found something interesting. I've had many PCs and every time I got a new build, It felt smooth and I thought it was fixed. The lag would slowly creep back in eventually. What I found out that is that if I reintroduce the main components back in (motherboard, cpu, ram), the pc will feel "fresh" again. So for the past 2 months I've been using an AMD pc. This week I swapped in my intel components. I kept the same GPU, powersupply, case. Doing this still gave me the "brand new pc" feel. I don't know why this is. I don't know if our components are charging up EMI over time or something the longer you use it, a temperature issue, etc. dont know.

assombrosso
Posts: 279
Joined: 29 Nov 2021, 10:34

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by assombrosso » 13 Jan 2023, 10:38

woodyfly wrote:
12 Jan 2023, 22:47
I found something interesting. I've had many PCs and every time I got a new build, It felt smooth and I thought it was fixed. The lag would slowly creep back in eventually. What I found out that is that if I reintroduce the main components back in (motherboard, cpu, ram), the pc will feel "fresh" again. So for the past 2 months I've been using an AMD pc. This week I swapped in my intel components. I kept the same GPU, powersupply, case. Doing this still gave me the "brand new pc" feel. I don't know why this is. I don't know if our components are charging up EMI over time or something the longer you use it, a temperature issue, etc. dont know.
This is my experience and many other ppl experience, it seems like components degrade over time, what’s degrading them we don’t know. Next time if you wana try brand new components, make sure to use metal case and use toroids/filters and see if the pc lasts for a long time without degradation

itsjNs
Posts: 17
Joined: 04 Aug 2022, 22:05

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by itsjNs » 13 Jan 2023, 18:41

assombrosso wrote:
13 Jan 2023, 10:38
woodyfly wrote:
12 Jan 2023, 22:47
I found something interesting. I've had many PCs and every time I got a new build, It felt smooth and I thought it was fixed. The lag would slowly creep back in eventually. What I found out that is that if I reintroduce the main components back in (motherboard, cpu, ram), the pc will feel "fresh" again. So for the past 2 months I've been using an AMD pc. This week I swapped in my intel components. I kept the same GPU, powersupply, case. Doing this still gave me the "brand new pc" feel. I don't know why this is. I don't know if our components are charging up EMI over time or something the longer you use it, a temperature issue, etc. dont know.
This is my experience and many other ppl experience, it seems like components degrade over time, what’s degrading them we don’t know. Next time if you wana try brand new components, make sure to use metal case and use toroids/filters and see if the pc lasts for a long time without degradation
electronics degrade over time if not supplied constantly by pure sinewave power.
If you build a new pc and never plug it straight to the wall then you go to go, always plug it in high quality UPS with steady voltage and constant frequency mode for constant 50 or 60hz depending where you live in the world. The specs will not degrade.
And fixing input lag only way is to have your own ground to do that you need to be your own electricity supplier *solar off grid system *modded UPS with larger batteries to extend battery mode time while offgrid.

assombrosso
Posts: 279
Joined: 29 Nov 2021, 10:34

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by assombrosso » 13 Jan 2023, 18:51

itsjNs wrote:
13 Jan 2023, 18:41
assombrosso wrote:
13 Jan 2023, 10:38
woodyfly wrote:
12 Jan 2023, 22:47
I found something interesting. I've had many PCs and every time I got a new build, It felt smooth and I thought it was fixed. The lag would slowly creep back in eventually. What I found out that is that if I reintroduce the main components back in (motherboard, cpu, ram), the pc will feel "fresh" again. So for the past 2 months I've been using an AMD pc. This week I swapped in my intel components. I kept the same GPU, powersupply, case. Doing this still gave me the "brand new pc" feel. I don't know why this is. I don't know if our components are charging up EMI over time or something the longer you use it, a temperature issue, etc. dont know.
This is my experience and many other ppl experience, it seems like components degrade over time, what’s degrading them we don’t know. Next time if you wana try brand new components, make sure to use metal case and use toroids/filters and see if the pc lasts for a long time without degradation
electronics degrade over time if not supplied constantly by pure sinewave power.
If you build a new pc and never plug it straight to the wall then you go to go, always plug it in high quality UPS with steady voltage and constant frequency mode for constant 50 or 60hz depending where you live in the world. The specs will not degrade.
And fixing input lag only way is to have your own ground to do that you need to be your own electricity supplier *solar off grid system *modded UPS with larger batteries to extend battery mode time while offgrid.
I believe there is truth to what your saying, using solar panel system, protecting all wires with toroid rings, all brand new components including monitor/pc/router and also metal case for pc to make sure no radiated EMI is touching them.
I believe the pc will last a long time without degrading but not for ever, I believe in 1-2 years max, it will be laggy again.

itsjNs
Posts: 17
Joined: 04 Aug 2022, 22:05

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by itsjNs » 13 Jan 2023, 21:13

assombrosso wrote:
13 Jan 2023, 18:51
itsjNs wrote:
13 Jan 2023, 18:41
assombrosso wrote:
13 Jan 2023, 10:38
woodyfly wrote:
12 Jan 2023, 22:47
I found something interesting. I've had many PCs and every time I got a new build, It felt smooth and I thought it was fixed. The lag would slowly creep back in eventually. What I found out that is that if I reintroduce the main components back in (motherboard, cpu, ram), the pc will feel "fresh" again. So for the past 2 months I've been using an AMD pc. This week I swapped in my intel components. I kept the same GPU, powersupply, case. Doing this still gave me the "brand new pc" feel. I don't know why this is. I don't know if our components are charging up EMI over time or something the longer you use it, a temperature issue, etc. dont know.
This is my experience and many other ppl experience, it seems like components degrade over time, what’s degrading them we don’t know. Next time if you wana try brand new components, make sure to use metal case and use toroids/filters and see if the pc lasts for a long time without degradation
electronics degrade over time if not supplied constantly by pure sinewave power.
If you build a new pc and never plug it straight to the wall then you go to go, always plug it in high quality UPS with steady voltage and constant frequency mode for constant 50 or 60hz depending where you live in the world. The specs will not degrade.
And fixing input lag only way is to have your own ground to do that you need to be your own electricity supplier *solar off grid system *modded UPS with larger batteries to extend battery mode time while offgrid.
I believe there is truth to what your saying, using solar panel system, protecting all wires with toroid rings, all brand new components including monitor/pc/router and also metal case for pc to make sure no radiated EMI is touching them.
I believe the pc will last a long time without degrading but not for ever, I believe in 1-2 years max, it will be laggy again.
cool Ill get back to you in 1 year or 2 then peace

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