Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

High Hz on OLED produce excellent strobeless motion blur reduction with fast GtG pixel response. It is easier to tell apart 60Hz vs 120Hz vs 240Hz on OLED than LCD, and more visible to mainstream. Includes WOLED and QD-OLED displays.
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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 06 Sep 2022, 12:59

Chamber wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 14:44
The last Hybrid display, the Hisense U9DG (A Duel Cell LCD TV that had 1080p IPS white and black display behind a 4k IPS colored screen) didn't last very long and has already been discontinued, so display manufacturers are going to be more reluctant to develop hybrid displays. I'm sure there would be a lot of added cost to hybridizing OLED+LCD and with NanoLED being cheaper to produce than OLED, I just can't see it working out.
I am inclined to agree.

I have seen the industry start rapidly tooling up for increased OLED mass manufacture, and some LCD factories shut down, so 2020s will be the Decade Of Direct-Emissive LED (OLED/MicroLED).

LCD will still be important for a long time, OLED is more motion blur efficient per Hz. While OLED Still Has Motion Blur, sample-and-hold OLED has approximately a 1.5x refresh rate advantage. This is witnessed by the fact that the brand new 170 Hz ultrawide OLEDs on the market is roughly as clear as a 240 Hz LCD. In fact, some argue slightly clearer (becuase of lack of GtG ghosting/coronas).

LCD GtG has a throttling effect on non-strobed LCD motion clarity which becomes worse as you go beyond roughly 240 Hz. The 360Hz-500Hz LCDs, while technically impressive, start falling behind Blur Busters Law (i.e. more motion blur than Blur Busters Law predicts, where for every 1ms of pixel visibilty time (MPRT100%) translates to 1 pixel of motion blur per 1000 pixels/sec.

At these 500Hz+ refresh rates, OLED/MicroLED probably now start to have a 2x sample-and-hold refresh rate advantage where a 500 Hz OLED will look preferable than a 1000 Hz LCD, when comparing the two at maximum framerate=Hz in sample-and-hold operation. This is 100% all LCD GtG’s fault, if LCD GtG doesn’t speed up any further from today.

By the end of the decade, the refresh rate race will see quadruple-digit Hz LCDs and emissive-pixeł xLED displays, but further continuance of the refresh rate race (to multi quadruple digit Hz) will probably no longer be LCD in the 2030s+.

Software-based rolling scan can then instead be done (piggybacking on a HDR framebuffer), to simulate retro displays (CRT electron beam simulation), with no more logic absolutely necessary in the display to do strobing.

A retina-Hz HDR display can utilize all kinds of software-based simulations of retro diplays (even temporal dithering simulators to mimic a DLP or plasma!), when you’ve got quadruple digit refresh rates with per-pixel HDR capability! So a 4000Hz+ LED display can simulate a CRT electron gun, plasma subfields, and DLP colorwheel + binary pixel temporal dithering.

1000Hz will get us close, but 4000Hz+ will be better because today’s DLP modulate pixels at 2880Hz, and some high end plasmas modulated at ~1440Hz (instead of 600Hz), so once we got such global refresh rates, we can simply use software based framebuffers (at the GPU end) to do the work in a GPU shader to simulate whatever display we want to simulate.

Fascinating how brute Hz can make a chamelon display possible (ability to mimic any past display). Go sample and hold and do your Windows. Go CRT electron beam simulation and play MAME. Go DLP simulation (both realtime modes and slo-mo modes, with speedup/slowdown to blend the two) to teach a classroom how DLP works. Etc. Etc.

So in the ultra-long-term, hardware-based algorithms (strobing) is destined to be obsolete. The algorithms can even be implemented as a filter in a Windows Indirect Display Driver, in a “SweetFX’ style manner.
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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by thatoneguy » 06 Sep 2022, 19:18

Why would we want to emulate DLP when we'll have high-res MicroLED that is superior in every way? Am I missing something here?

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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Sep 2022, 11:59

thatoneguy wrote:
06 Sep 2022, 19:18
Why would we want to emulate DLP when we'll have high-res MicroLED that is superior in every way? Am I missing something here?
Education, comparisons, etc.

You saw that I wrote “education”, too? So people know the differences between displays, by using only one display. Even the left/right halves could concurrently emulate different displays!

The point is: With enough Hz (and HDR and fast-enough pixel response…) a display can emulate a different display very accurately.
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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by thatoneguy » 07 Sep 2022, 19:00

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Sep 2022, 11:59
Education, comparisons, etc.

You saw that I wrote “education”, too? So people know the differences between displays, by using only one display. Even the left/right halves could concurrently emulate different displays!

The point is: With enough Hz (and HDR and fast-enough pixel response…) a display can emulate a different display very accurately.
Well, MicroLED would completely obsolete DLP to the point where it's not worth learning about but ok.

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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Sep 2022, 19:23

thatoneguy wrote:
07 Sep 2022, 19:00
Well, MicroLED would completely obsolete DLP to the point where it's not worth learning about but ok.
It was just an example.
The point is that any retro display can be simulated:
- simulation of DLP
- simulation of plasma
- simulation of CRT
- simulation of OLED
- simulation of slower LCD (GtG emulators)
- simulation of imaginary or vaporware displays
- etc.

Once the refresh rate, HDR, and resolution are all simultaneously a retina superset of human visions' capabilities, the display's capabilities venn diagram includes accurately simulating any retro display imaginable, of any pixel response imaginable, etc.

Whether be for education, or for engineering, etc. For example, a projector engineer for IMAX may want to use a software-based display emulator to test various different kinds of algorithms that may work better in cinema (since projection MicroLEDs can't get bright enough to light up a 70 foot tall screen). Or that an arcade-cabinet designer wants to tweak a retro CRT simulator to perfectly match the specs/characteristics of a specific arcade tube (except for its physical curvature). Or that people want to compare LCD vs OLED/MicroLED on the same display. Etc. A high-Hz OLED TestUFO demo may simulate an LCD on one half (by artificially adding extra pixel response and narrowing gamut including poorer black levels), to compare LCD vs OLED behaviors. Or whatever purposes (consumer, prosumer, tester, manufacturer) dreams of. There are zillions of use cases.

Or, imagine that, that you want to design a VR screen where you can walk through a virtual world (with a real realistic Holodeck equivalent of an office with DLP projector, a 1980s arcade with realistic looking CRT tubes, and a 1990s/2000s office with realistic slow-LCDs, etc). A Holodeck display needs to mimic all displays accurately in virtual reality (both spatially and temporally, including all of their respective artifacts) -- especially if the VR world is able to pass a blind test between VR headset versus transparent ski goggles (Can't tell apart VR=reallife).

Again...

This does not have anything to do with "obsolete" or "not obsolete", so discussion of obsoleteness is offtopic here. That is 100% missing the point -- the point is that excess brute overkill refresh rate (Hz) makes a "chamelon display" possible, where any display in humankind looks accurately simulated to the extent of human perception levels.. Retina refresh rate capable of doing this, is still in the quadruple digits based on calculations bye researchers.

However, even merely a 500Hz-1000Hz OLED or MicroLED can get pretty useful results (e.g. superior to classic BFI or other classic algorithms).
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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by thatoneguy » 08 Sep 2022, 04:00

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Sep 2022, 19:23
(since projection MicroLEDs can't get bright enough to light up a 70 foot tall screen)
Samsung's ONYX screen is 46 feet already.

I get what you're trying to say with your post but tbh I don't see projection as the future of cinema. I think they will move to Direct LED eventually.

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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 13 Sep 2022, 12:18

thatoneguy wrote:
08 Sep 2022, 04:00
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Sep 2022, 19:23
(since projection MicroLEDs can't get bright enough to light up a 70 foot tall screen)
Samsung's ONYX screen is 46 feet already.

I get what you're trying to say with your post but tbh I don't see projection as the future of cinema. I think they will move to Direct LED eventually.
Yes....

Just to clarify to other readers, I was talking about projector machines, not the new direct-view retina resolution jumbotrons (like Samsungs' THE WALL)

It's neat they're finally installing retina jumbotrons in cinemas to eliminate the projector though. Essentially the best video billboard and scoreboard technology turned retina resolution and then brought into luxury homes / cinema.

That being said, I don't think projectors will ever be fully obsolete, as portable projectors are required to do things like projection mapping of giant buildings and spontaneous outdoor cinema, as well as other applications. They are also pretty cheap per inch -- you can get a great 4K projector doing 100 inches brightly for under $1000 nowadays. Good quality 1080p (good lens) is now purchasable for under $500 nowadays, and budget 1080p projectors (bad lens) for under $200.

It's all about the Right Tool For The Right Job...

_______________

But at the end of the day, perfect Holodeck displays need to be able to simulate retro displays perfectly. It's actually theoretically possible -- one need to sufficiently retina-out both spatially (ala Apple parlance) and temporally (brute Hz, ala Blur Busters research), and throw enough HDR headroom at it.

Today: At 120Hz, this became possible:
- Fixed-Persistence Software BFI 60fps at www.testufo.com/blackframes&bonusufo=1

Today: At 240Hz, this became possible
- Crude Variable-Persistence Software BFI 60fps at www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=4&bonusufo=1
- DLP Colorwheel Simulation / Rainbow Effect at www.testufo.com/rainboweffect (Photosensitivity warning: Don't run at 60Hz)

Future: At 1000Hz+, way more becomes eventually possible:
- Reasonably realistic CRT electron beam simulation
- Temporal dithering simulation per pixel (e.g. plasma subfield simulation, DLP projector chip simulation)

More Hz the better (as 1000Hz is not yet retina Hz), but simulating reality becomes more and more temporally correct (e.g. future Holodeck-quality VR displays simulating things that require high temporal resolution to simulate accurately).

This isn't the only use case obviously, but it's a good thought exercise on "should retina-temporal displays exist for *any* use case?" -- and it's obvious: A perfect Holodeck.

Will take a long time for display progress to get there, though.
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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by thatoneguy » 13 Sep 2022, 22:18

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
13 Sep 2022, 12:18

That being said, I don't think projectors will ever be fully obsolete, as portable projectors are required to do things like projection mapping of giant buildings
I think AR Glasses will start getting used for that eventually. With AR you can see a 3D projection basically and spin it around etc.
After that in the far future I imagine there'll be Holographic Displays.

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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 14 Sep 2022, 12:08

thatoneguy wrote:
13 Sep 2022, 22:18
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
13 Sep 2022, 12:18

That being said, I don't think projectors will ever be fully obsolete, as portable projectors are required to do things like projection mapping of giant buildings
I think AR Glasses will start getting used for that eventually. With AR you can see a 3D projection basically and spin it around etc.
After that in the far future I imagine there'll be Holographic Displays.
AR will help, but I expertly subscribe by the weakest-link principle (which is how Blur Busters exists. Finding weak links in the refresh rate race).

I even apply the weakest-link principle to the real world: At least 1 person in the human population worldwide will not be wearing AR glasses, for example.

We're not going to be able to five-sigma AR ownership. Not even everyone has a smartphone, and even so not everyone has electricity. Etc. Therefore, projectors will never be obsolete even in the era of AR, since there will always be more people using electricity than using AR.

Here's a different use case: I have a battery powered portable projector that works at remote undeveloped campsites -- 300-700 at-the-screen lumens useful for lighting up a wall, a sheet, or even the side of a rock. They're quite handy when you need a big display from something that fits in less than 5% of a backpack. The newest pico projectors have received ultrabright 100-200 lumen/watt LED light sources with efficient optics, blasting quadruple digit lumens through the optics, and even after optics losses, still produces usable mid-triple-digit lumens at the screen in a mere 1-2 pound package generating a 80 inch HD image that is lighter than an average 10 inch tablet, streaming Netflix over LTE. One of the first ones to produce that much light in a 1-pound package was AAXA P300, but since then, many models are now on the market, if you cherrypick the light-cannon models.

Yes, yes, AR glasses could display a big virtual cinema screen into the real world instead, obviously. But that's single-viewer unless everyone is wearing them, and at a specific crowd size, starts to weigh more than one of the newer light-cannon-quality pico projector of triple-digit at-screen lumens. One may be better than other for various use cases. There will be tradeoff decisions, but there will always be use cases for projectors, even if niche.

Now that being said, ALL display tech need to improve - AR, VR, mobile, tablet, television, projection, etc. ;)
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Re: Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing?

Post by RealNC » 14 Sep 2022, 20:40

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
14 Sep 2022, 12:08
Yes, yes, AR glasses could display a big virtual cinema screen into the real world instead, obviously. But that's single-viewer unless everyone is wearing them
Which sounds like what content owners would consider a content distribution utopia. A technology which allows them to control who can view their content with such fine-grained precision is surely what they would push for.
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