OLED BFI Options?

[NeonPizza]

One thing that's irritating with the LG C1's 120hz BFI, is that it's motion Pro low, medium & high settings, again when gaming at 120fps, gradually causes this weird unnatural harsh darkening(Not talking about brightness loss) with the image, the higher your go. I'm not entirely sure if it's shadow detail crushing or what but it looks awful. Is there a way to correct this?

For now, I just roll with vanilla 120fps. However 120fps+MPLow(Using the module HDR 'ON' setting in the service menu) manages to retain enough brightness to make it worth while, but once you get to High and even medium, the brightness just doesn't quite cut, at least for me personally.

You can improve near-black visibility on the LG C1 with OLED Motion Pro High using Reshade. Plasma TV for Gaming made a great tutorial showing how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MyVfNWTewM. If you have any issues or findings you can let him know, as he reads all comments.

Thanks for the link! But what exactly does near black even mean? Are you referring to the unnatural darkening caused from Motion Pro Low, Medium & High? It's just so annoying knowing that I've forked over thousands for a TV, that's whipping out 20ms of input lag(CRT is around 3ms?) with it's 60hz BFI setting, and even the 60hz BFI's 6.2ms motion persistence can't come close to a CRT's 1ms. We're supposed to be moving forward, not backwards. 120fps is fantastic for what it is in it's own right creating that smooth life-like buttery motion, but i'm strictly talking persistence here.

The only way to get 3.2ms is with 120fps + MotionPro HIGH. But there's just too much brigthness loss by that point, including MPMedium, even with Module HDR On in the service menu, which is why i've opted for 120fps, or 120fps + MPLow depending on the title. vanilla 120fps gets you down to 5ms of lag, but when using 120fps with MP Low i've heard it bumps you up to 10ms.

I guess we'll have to wait a few more years until NanoLED arrives with enough brightness under the hood to salvage for CRT-like motion. If the TV manufactures won't put in the effort with great BFI, than maybe a future Retrotink model will be able to do 1ms persistence @4K.

[Chamber]

One thing that's irritating with the LG C1's 120hz BFI, is that it's motion Pro low, medium & high settings, again when gaming at 120fps, gradually causes this weird unnatural harsh darkening(Not talking about brightness loss) with the image, the higher your go. I'm not entirely sure if it's shadow detail crushing or what but it looks awful. Is there a way to correct this?

For now, I just roll with vanilla 120fps. However 120fps+MPLow(Using the module HDR 'ON' setting in the service menu) manages to retain enough brightness to make it worth while, but once you get to High and even medium, the brightness just doesn't quite cut, at least for me personally.

You can improve near-black visibility on the LG C1 with OLED Motion Pro High using Reshade. Plasma TV for Gaming made a great tutorial showing how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MyVfNWTewM. If you have any issues or findings you can let him know, as he reads all comments.

Thanks for the link! But what exactly does near black even mean? Are you referring to the unnatural darkening caused from Motion Pro Low, Medium & High? It's just so annoying knowing that I've forked over thousands for a TV, that's whipping out 20ms of input lag(CRT is around 3ms?) with it's 60hz BFI setting, and even the 60hz BFI's 6.2ms motion persistence can't come close to a CRT's 1ms. We're supposed to be moving forward, not backwards. 120fps is fantastic for what it is in it's own right creating that smooth life-like buttery motion, but i'm strictly talking persistence here.

The only way to get 3.2ms is with 120fps + MotionPro HIGH. But there's just too much brigthness loss by that point, including MPMedium, even with Module HDR On in the service menu, which is why i've opted for 120fps, or 120fps + MPLow depending on the title. vanilla 120fps gets you down to 5ms of lag, but when using 120fps with MP Low i've heard it bumps you up to 10ms.

I guess we'll have to wait a few more years until NanoLED arrives with enough brightness under the hood to salvage for CRT-like motion. If the TV manufactures won't put in the effort with great BFI, than maybe a future Retrotink model will be able to do 1ms persistence @4K.

When you mentioned shadow detail crush earlier that's what I mean by near black visibility. OLEDs can do true blacks perfectly but they tend to struggle with near black handling (basically shades that very dark but not quite black) compared to MiniLED and Plasma TVs. Sony and Panasonic OLEDs tends to have much better out near black handling compared to LG OLEDs, but they're also much more expensive. Black Frame insertion tends to crush blacks even further, but you can mitigate this by slightly raising the black levels.

The LG G3 and Samsung S95C can both do 1500 nits on 10% window, so CRT motion clarity should already be possible with rolling scan BFI utilizing HDR window brightness. Panel manufacturers just don't seem to care enough to implement BFI in this way. I've heard that 120Hz BFI was removed on LG OLEDs to allow for more brightness, which would make sense, I'm not sure if this is true but at least that would be a better justification for removing BFI then cost cutting.. But yeah NanoLED should be well beyond MLA WOLED and QD OLED in brightness while being cheaper to produce, so it seems to be the holy grail of display technology. Affordable MicroLED is still 10+ years way according to most analysts and Samsung's QNED was supposed to come out 2024 to 2025 but now it seems indefinitely delayed.

[JDnoob]

So it looks like LG CX OLED (48”, 55”, 65”, 77”) is still the king of OLED BFI?

LG CX OLED was the last to have 4ms MPRT 60hz strobing and the second last to have 120hz strobing at all on OLED TV panels.

[NeonPizza]

So it looks like LG CX OLED (48”, 55”, 65”, 77”) is still the king of OLED BFI?

LG CX OLED was the last to have 4ms MPRT 60hz strobing and the second last to have 120hz strobing at all on OLED TV panels.

Meh, the CX has around 70nits left once BFI is in effect. Useless imo. I'd rather find a happy medium.
It's just too bad that Samsung's S90C & S95C's BFI has a near-30ms input lag. the higher 8.3ms persistence and noticeably brighter SDR picture with QD-OLED BFI would of provided superior brightness Vs lets say the C1 + MotionPro High, but that 29.4ms of lag is tough to swallow and will not be doable in most cases. So it's pretty much out for me personally.

As for the C1, even when using HDR Module ON(in the service menu) to gain more brightness to compensate for the LG C1's severe brightness loss when using motionpro high, you still can't get enough brightness. Games wind up looking artificially darker and a bit dimmer than what you'd get from a fresh out of the box Sony wega trinitron CRT form the mid 2000's. It just doesn't do it for me, but the motion does look THAT much better. It's such a tease!

If i could run all of my games at 144fps on the S90C, i'd get a 6.8ms persistence, which is close to the C1's 6.2ms from MotionPro High. Except i wouldn't lose ANY brightness,there wouldn't be any darkening from the black frames, latency would drop down to 5ms(Instead of dealing with MotionPro High's 20ms), there wouldn't be any BFI flicks on whites and i'd be getting 84 more fps for buttery smooth motion.

A PC(4090) could easily run nintendo switch exclusives at 144fps +1440p-4K. I just hate how I'm bottle necked with Switch's PS3+ horse power. I wish there was a way to legally play my digital collection of switch games on PC, 'with' the power of a 4090 and running everything at 144, or 120 at worst.

[NeonPizza]

One thing that's irritating with the LG C1's 120hz BFI, is that it's motion Pro low, medium & high settings, again when gaming at 120fps, gradually causes this weird unnatural harsh darkening(Not talking about brightness loss) with the image, the higher your go. I'm not entirely sure if it's shadow detail crushing or what but it looks awful. Is there a way to correct this?

For now, I just roll with vanilla 120fps. However 120fps+MPLow(Using the module HDR 'ON' setting in the service menu) manages to retain enough brightness to make it worth while, but once you get to High and even medium, the brightness just doesn't quite cut, at least for me personally.

You can improve near-black visibility on the LG C1 with OLED Motion Pro High using Reshade. Plasma TV for Gaming made a great tutorial showing how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MyVfNWTewM. If you have any issues or findings you can let him know, as he reads all comments.

Thanks for the link! But what exactly does near black even mean? Are you referring to the unnatural darkening caused from Motion Pro Low, Medium & High? It's just so annoying knowing that I've forked over thousands for a TV, that's whipping out 20ms of input lag(CRT is around 3ms?) with it's 60hz BFI setting, and even the 60hz BFI's 6.2ms motion persistence can't come close to a CRT's 1ms. We're supposed to be moving forward, not backwards. 120fps is fantastic for what it is in it's own right creating that smooth life-like buttery motion, but i'm strictly talking persistence here.

The only way to get 3.2ms is with 120fps + MotionPro HIGH. But there's just too much brigthness loss by that point, including MPMedium, even with Module HDR On in the service menu, which is why i've opted for 120fps, or 120fps + MPLow depending on the title. vanilla 120fps gets you down to 5ms of lag, but when using 120fps with MP Low i've heard it bumps you up to 10ms.

I guess we'll have to wait a few more years until NanoLED arrives with enough brightness under the hood to salvage for CRT-like motion. If the TV manufactures won't put in the effort with great BFI, than maybe a future Retrotink model will be able to do 1ms persistence @4K.

When you mentioned shadow detail crush earlier that's what I mean by near black visibility. OLEDs can do true blacks perfectly but they tend to struggle with near black handling (basically shades that very dark but not quite black) compared to MiniLED and Plasma TVs. Sony and Panasonic OLEDs tends to have much better out near black handling compared to LG OLEDs, but they're also much more expensive. Black Frame insertion tends to crush blacks even further, but you can mitigate this by slightly raising the black levels.

The LG G3 and Samsung S95C can both do 1500 nits on 10% window, so CRT motion clarity should already be possible with rolling scan BFI utilizing HDR window brightness. Panel manufacturers just don't seem to care enough to implement BFI in this way. I've heard that 120Hz BFI was removed on LG OLEDs to allow for more brightness, which would make sense, I'm not sure if this is true but at least that would be a better justification for removing BFI then cost cutting.. But yeah NanoLED should be well beyond MLA WOLED and QD OLED in brightness while being cheaper to produce, so it seems to be the holy grail of display technology. Affordable MicroLED is still 10+ years way according to most analysts and Samsung's QNED was supposed to come out 2024 to 2025 but now it seems indefinitely delayed.

Gotcha! Reshade unfortunately cannot be used with consoles, it's PC exclusive. And PlasmaTVgaming said there wasn't any black crushing from MotionPro HIgh (or when using low, med & high for 120fps) and labeled it as darkening. It looks awful imo and completely unnatural. There's too much brightness loss with 120fps + MP Medium and High, so those are out. I'd consider using 120+MpLow while correcting the near black issue, but sometimes, depending on the genre it isn't always worth lowering the persistence by near- 2ms from 120fps(8.3ms) to 120fps + MotionPro Low(6.2ms) since lag shoots back up to 10ms from 5ms. But i like having the option to toggle between the two.

As for 60fps + MotionPro High. Even if the black crushing and near black were perfected, 'with' Module HDR set to ON in the service menu, there still just isn't enough brightness under the hood imo. A fresh out of the box Sony CRT wega trinitron from the mid 2000's, if memory serves me right, looked noticeably brighter when gaming. With the C1, the picture has this artificial darkness I guess from the black frames being inserted, and it's just a little too dim for my liking.

144fps + PC(4090) truly is the golden ticket if you've got the money, specifically for 3rd party titles that aren't capped. But that doesn't do anything for Nintendo's Exclusives. And yes, I don't think regular WOLED's are even bright enough to properly pull of 120hz BFI, beyond anything but the lowest setting for rolling scan bfi, and it makes sense that they've scrapped it entirely because most people won't even bother and may even be hard pressed to tell the difference. I can see the difference from vanilla 120, but it would seem silly to include just low and not medium and high for 120, which would wind up looking too dim anyways for most people.

QD-OLED on the other hand has a better shot with SDR 120hz BFI brightness, but 120 bfi at this point has been scrapped completely, and looks as if it's not happening for 2024 either. But ya, when do you think larger sized NanoLED's will finally hit the market? I'm itching for that 1ms motion persistence with high brightness.

[NeonPizza]

Any idea how much latency the upcoming 32" Samsung G8(2024) QD-OLED has for it's Black frame insertion setting, if it in fact has one, when running games at 60fps. Was planning on getting a smaller OLED for those Analogue HD clone NES, SNES, GEN & TGFX consoles.

I would hate to have to get another WOLED, QD-OLED and at 32" seems like a solid fit for 8-16 bit titles.

[Clear Motion Seeker]

I would hate to have to get another WOLED, QD-OLED and at 32" seems like a solid fit for 8-16 bit titles.

What's the real problem with WOLED panels ?

I don't think that panels themselves are the bottleneck here, we just need a complete setting list to custom BFI depending on our needs.

I would like a less fancy design but having more control on the screen with many options, something that is more professional-oriented in spirit than a product that targets mass audience.

[NeonPizza]

I would hate to have to get another WOLED, QD-OLED and at 32" seems like a solid fit for 8-16 bit titles.

What's the real problem with WOLED panels ?

I don't think that panels themselves are the bottleneck here, we just need a complete setting list to custom BFI depending on our needs.

I would like a less fancy design but having more control on the screen with many options, something that is more professional-oriented in spirit than a product that targets mass audience.

Because WOLED colours are straight up awful unless you get creative. Still, they're a far cry from what my plasma is capable of. QD-OLED gets much closer.

[Clear Motion Seeker]

I know that QD-OLED is better than WOLED in terms of color reproduction and accuracy, due to lack of white sub-pixel. But i didn't know it was that awful in practice for the latter, just a very light green tint effect if you're really picky.

For now, it seems that QD-OLED suffers of burn-in much more, but maybe LG just has a better software to prevent this issue. So might not be hardware-related.

If had to pick a TV right now, it would be the Sony A95L because it combines QD-OLED + Sony electronics. I'm not a big fan of Samsung image and motion processing, but maybe it's different with the S95C.
But it's very expensive and i couldn't give so much money for a device that would leave be frustrated in terms of BFI options.

[doug5421]

You can improve near-black visibility on the LG C1 with OLED Motion Pro High using Reshade. Plasma TV for Gaming made a great tutorial showing how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MyVfNWTewM. If you have any issues or findings you can let him know, as he reads all comments.

Thanks for the link! But what exactly does near black even mean? Are you referring to the unnatural darkening caused from Motion Pro Low, Medium & High? It's just so annoying knowing that I've forked over thousands for a TV, that's whipping out 20ms of input lag(CRT is around 3ms?) with it's 60hz BFI setting, and even the 60hz BFI's 6.2ms motion persistence can't come close to a CRT's 1ms. We're supposed to be moving forward, not backwards. 120fps is fantastic for what it is in it's own right creating that smooth life-like buttery motion, but i'm strictly talking persistence here.

The only way to get 3.2ms is with 120fps + MotionPro HIGH. But there's just too much brigthness loss by that point, including MPMedium, even with Module HDR On in the service menu, which is why i've opted for 120fps, or 120fps + MPLow depending on the title. vanilla 120fps gets you down to 5ms of lag, but when using 120fps with MP Low i've heard it bumps you up to 10ms.

I guess we'll have to wait a few more years until NanoLED arrives with enough brightness under the hood to salvage for CRT-like motion. If the TV manufactures won't put in the effort with great BFI, than maybe a future Retrotink model will be able to do 1ms persistence @4K.

When you mentioned shadow detail crush earlier that's what I mean by near black visibility. OLEDs can do true blacks perfectly but they tend to struggle with near black handling (basically shades that very dark but not quite black) compared to MiniLED and Plasma TVs. Sony and Panasonic OLEDs tends to have much better out near black handling compared to LG OLEDs, but they're also much more expensive. Black Frame insertion tends to crush blacks even further, but you can mitigate this by slightly raising the black levels.

The LG G3 and Samsung S95C can both do 1500 nits on 10% window, so CRT motion clarity should already be possible with rolling scan BFI utilizing HDR window brightness. Panel manufacturers just don't seem to care enough to implement BFI in this way. I've heard that 120Hz BFI was removed on LG OLEDs to allow for more brightness, which would make sense, I'm not sure if this is true but at least that would be a better justification for removing BFI then cost cutting.. But yeah NanoLED should be well beyond MLA WOLED and QD OLED in brightness while being cheaper to produce, so it seems to be the holy grail of display technology. Affordable MicroLED is still 10+ years way according to most analysts and Samsung's QNED was supposed to come out 2024 to 2025 but now it seems indefinitely delayed.

Gotcha! Reshade unfortunately cannot be used with consoles, it's PC exclusive. And PlasmaTVgaming said there wasn't any black crushing from MotionPro HIgh (or when using low, med & high for 120fps) and labeled it as darkening. It looks awful imo and completely unnatural. There's too much brightness loss with 120fps + MP Medium and High, so those are out. I'd consider using 120+MpLow while correcting the near black issue, but sometimes, depending on the genre it isn't always worth lowering the persistence by near- 2ms from 120fps(8.3ms) to 120fps + MotionPro Low(6.2ms) since lag shoots back up to 10ms from 5ms. But i like having the option to toggle between the two.

As for 60fps + MotionPro High. Even if the black crushing and near black were perfected, 'with' Module HDR set to ON in the service menu, there still just isn't enough brightness under the hood imo. A fresh out of the box Sony CRT wega trinitron from the mid 2000's, if memory serves me right, looked noticeably brighter when gaming. With the C1, the picture has this artificial darkness I guess from the black frames being inserted, and it's just a little too dim for my liking.

144fps + PC(4090) truly is the golden ticket if you've got the money, specifically for 3rd party titles that aren't capped. But that doesn't do anything for Nintendo's Exclusives. And yes, I don't think regular WOLED's are even bright enough to properly pull of 120hz BFI, beyond anything but the lowest setting for rolling scan bfi, and it makes sense that they've scrapped it entirely because most people won't even bother and may even be hard pressed to tell the difference. I can see the difference from vanilla 120, but it would seem silly to include just low and not medium and high for 120, which would wind up looking too dim anyways for most people.

QD-OLED on the other hand has a better shot with SDR 120hz BFI brightness, but 120 bfi at this point has been scrapped completely, and looks as if it's not happening for 2024 either. But ya, when do you think larger sized NanoLED's will finally hit the market? I'm itching for that 1ms motion persistence with high brightness.

Isn’t ASUS’ new 4K 240hz QD-OLED releasing this month at least 120hz BFI (ELMB)? Be a dream if it also supported 30, 60 & 240hz.

I adore my C1 & got the AW2725DF for FPS, both phenomenal, but I’m still itching for 240hz BFI w/ the ASUS 480hz.. Just the downsides of matte finish & less colors are a bummer.