OLED BFI Options?

High Hz on OLED produce excellent strobeless motion blur reduction with fast GtG pixel response. It is easier to tell apart 60Hz vs 120Hz vs 240Hz on OLED than LCD, and more visible to mainstream. Includes WOLED and QD-OLED displays.
deama
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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by deama » 18 Mar 2023, 09:47

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
12 Mar 2023, 18:33
OLED BFI questions now split into a new thread.
Do you happen to have any information on BFI for the LG OLED TVs? I don't want to get OLED monitors because they just don't have as many options and aren't big enough for me.

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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by GammaLyrae » 18 Mar 2023, 16:59

nuninho1980 wrote:
13 Mar 2023, 14:17
OLED has only 4 ms MPRT!? Bad... We want 0.5 or lower.
Lower is always better, naturally

I know that OLED panels struggle to come out of black without flickering or overshoot artifacts. LG and Samsung have their own methodology to solve this for their displays, but I suspect that it is partially dependent on a certain amount of pixel 'on' time in order to apply dithering or some other technique to prevent it from being too visually distracting. It wouldn't surprise me if it took awhile for 2ms MPRT to be available on OLED.

I really like the motion clarity you can get with the Valve Index or Viewsonic XG2431 (less than 1ms MPRT depending on refresh rate and chosen pulse width), and 2-4ms always looks blurry when they're right next to each other or you're doing an A/B test, but it's still a substantial improvement over 16ms mprt (for 60hz), 8ms mprt (for 120hz), etc.

It wouldn't surprise me if we saw a dual layer LCD or an IPS black panel w/ a BB 2.0 certification before we saw a 2ms MPRT OLED sized for desktop use.

Brute force refresh rate and framerate locks is naturally the easiest / cleanest solution for future displays and future content, but having options available for decades of legacy content that can't be made to run at those framerates is good too.

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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 19 Mar 2023, 02:58

nuninho1980 wrote:
13 Mar 2023, 14:17
OLED has only 4 ms MPRT!? Bad... we want 0.5 or lower.
This only refers to the current 240Hz OLED backplane.

You can get close to 0.5ms MPRT with PlayStation VR2 already (lower pulse widths at lower brightnesses).

Alternatively, you can already get 0.3ms MPRT with Oculus Quest 2, or Valve Index 2.

Also, there's the quality improvement afforded by brute framerate-based motion blur reduction, so on a fast-GtG display (e.g. OLED or direct-view MicroLED) 1ms MPRT via 1000fps 1000Hz looks better than 0.5ms MPRT strobed. There is a kind of a minor biasing factor upwards in early tests with stobeless motion blur reduction; because of the extra brightness and the lack of stroboscopic effects; However, not too much though. 0.5ms vs 4ms is a whopping 8x difference in display motion blur (much like a 1/240sec camera photograph and a 1/2000sec camera photograph)
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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by nuninho1980 » 24 Apr 2023, 10:51

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
19 Mar 2023, 02:58
This only refers to the current 240Hz OLED backplane.

You can get close to 0.5ms MPRT with PlayStation VR2 already (lower pulse widths at lower brightnesses).

Alternatively, you can already get 0.3ms MPRT with Oculus Quest 2, or Valve Index 2.

Also, there's the quality improvement afforded by brute framerate-based motion blur reduction, so on a fast-GtG display (e.g. OLED or direct-view MicroLED) 1ms MPRT via 1000fps 1000Hz looks better than 0.5ms MPRT strobed. There is a kind of a minor biasing factor upwards in early tests with stobeless motion blur reduction; because of the extra brightness and the lack of stroboscopic effects; However, not too much though. 0.5ms vs 4ms is a whopping 8x difference in display motion blur (much like a 1/240sec camera photograph and a 1/2000sec camera photograph)
Ok. I would like to use 3D glasses but this has 2 disadvantages with the rainbow and with no 50/60Hz single-strobe support.
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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by NeonPizza » 30 Apr 2023, 21:58

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
19 Mar 2023, 02:58
nuninho1980 wrote:
13 Mar 2023, 14:17
OLED has only 4 ms MPRT!? Bad... we want 0.5 or lower.
This only refers to the current 240Hz OLED backplane.

You can get close to 0.5ms MPRT with PlayStation VR2 already (lower pulse widths at lower brightnesses).

Alternatively, you can already get 0.3ms MPRT with Oculus Quest 2, or Valve Index 2.

Also, there's the quality improvement afforded by brute framerate-based motion blur reduction, so on a fast-GtG display (e.g. OLED or direct-view MicroLED) 1ms MPRT via 1000fps 1000Hz looks better than 0.5ms MPRT strobed. There is a kind of a minor biasing factor upwards in early tests with stobeless motion blur reduction; because of the extra brightness and the lack of stroboscopic effects; However, not too much though. 0.5ms vs 4ms is a whopping 8x difference in display motion blur (much like a 1/240sec camera photograph and a 1/2000sec camera photograph)

I still haven't tried cinema/movie mode yet with my PSVR2. Should be really nice having an almost CRT-like persistence with Brightness slider set to 0, but I don't think i could have that thing on my head for almost 2 hours while watching a movie. :P I don't know, Sony's deceptive or false advertising had me thinking I'd get the same motion clarity as PSVR1 but with a brighter picture and greater colours, but that isn't the case. It's a double edge sword. You can have the latter, but at the cost of motion persistence. It's cool that they at least give you a slider with around 10 adjustments to find a happy medium, but the out of the box/default brightness slider set to max is going to give people poor first impressions since the head movement blur is just awful at that setting.

I really hope Sony opts for a PVSR2 revision/model 2 with the following >

Wireless to PS5 Connection
Pancake Lenses + micro-oled - (Wide sweet spot)
Flat front visor - (Thanks to using Pancake Lenses)
Ring-less VR Controllers with similar Quest Pro tracking system
Brighter picture at '0' Brightness to sustain CRT-like motion.

Sony kind of dropped the ball. The VR2 will most likely sell just as well as the first. People that are uninformed expect VR to be some affordable add on, when really it should be treated like an alternative to a TV. Sony had to cut corners to get it down to $749 CAD, and even then the vast majority of PS5 owners find the sticker price to be a hard pill to swallow.

The chunky fat front visor, tethered cable, Cumbersome annoying Rings surrounding the VR controllers and finicky narrow sweet spot make for a cumbersome annoying experience. That's not to say there arent any incredible VR experiences to be had. Resident Evil: Village and Moss: Book 2 are the VR2 holy grails imo.

Supposedly Apple's VR headset is mind blowing. 8k Display(4K per eye), 123d FOV, pancake lenses+Micro-OLED, wireless, All inclusive and with a mobile chip that's more powerful than Quest 3's. But, in order to utilize 4K per eye, graphics i'm assuming will look like a PS2 game. But at least they have the wiggle room by using lower resolutions to get better graphics.

Apple VR, Quest 3 and Valves new headset can't come soon enough! :D

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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by Adi-C » 10 May 2023, 12:10

So eve monitors, apparently now called Dough is doing some half software- half hardware bfi at 120hz, and maybe 80hz later on
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?s ... 1683706450
I wonder if this is what Chief alluded to (that they're working on a 240hz oled with bfi at 120), but probably not, since they don't mention BlurBusters other than link to a test at the BB website.

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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 May 2023, 12:47

Adi-C wrote:
10 May 2023, 12:10
So eve monitors, apparently now called Dough is doing some half software- half hardware bfi at 120hz, and maybe 80hz later on
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?s ... 1683706450
I wonder if this is what Chief alluded to (that they're working on a 240hz oled with bfi at 120), but probably not, since they don't mention BlurBusters other than link to a test at the BB website.
Working with the panel limitations, the 240Hz OLEDs can definitely do BFI at the scaler vendor level, without LG's involvement, so having the scaler vendor add BFI is a solution for any OLED vendor wanting to add BFI to their unit.

Dough did approach me to help them add BFI to their OLEDs.

Their scaler vendor Realtek successfully implemented a BFI algorithm based on a specification that I sent them.

The OLED is not capable of subrefresh BFI, but by creating a firmware software loop that adds black frames between the refresh cycles, you can have a 120Hz ON:OFF cadence, or 80Hz ON:OFF:OFF cadence, or 60Hz ON:OFF:OFF:OFF cadence. I will press for configurable cadence such as ON:OFF:OFF:OFF vs ON:ON:OFF:OFF vs ON:ON:ON:OFF
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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by RonsonPL » 10 May 2023, 15:25

So what are the chances of future OLED TVs being

- 480Hz for sub 4ms persistence
- usable in terms of perceived brightnesss while at it
?

Can we hope it happens within a year or two or would you say it's extremely unlikely?

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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 May 2023, 22:09

I think we will have to wait till 480 Hz OLEDs for 240Hz+BFI.

Currently, only VR OLEDs (e.g. PSVR2) is capable of hardware based sub-refresh BFI.
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Re: OLED BFI Options?

Post by GammaLyrae » 14 May 2023, 02:43

Adi-C wrote:
10 May 2023, 12:10
So eve monitors, apparently now called Dough is doing some half software- half hardware bfi at 120hz, and maybe 80hz later on
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?s ... 1683706450
I wonder if this is what Chief alluded to (that they're working on a 240hz oled with bfi at 120), but probably not, since they don't mention BlurBusters other than link to a test at the BB website.
Interesting

I wonder what this will mean for image quality. One of the perks of bfi on LG's TVs is they will use available brightness headroom of the panel to sharply boost the brightness of the active frame, to do as much as they can to keep the perceived sdr brightness of bfi on vs off the same. In terms of what is lost, you introduce a bit of black crush, but overall brightness and color quality remains mostly the same with their methodology.

Makes me wonder if their firmware will make any attempt to adjust in a similar fashion, or if the scaler is literally just going to insert black frames and take no other action. Guess we'll see in the reviews.

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