Best 1st Monitor When Starting the Goose Chase?

[WesternHiker]

I agree with Chief Blur on the long list of possible issues than just pwm and it's a goose chase.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12808

I have had severe eye strain issues with tons of pwm free laptop ips screens. Old, New, 60hz, 120hz, "low blue light ratings" "eye care" etc... All kill my eyes, headaches, bloodshot vessels after about 45 mins.
Devices to date:
Yoga 2 pro (2013) ips
Thinkbook 13x Gen 4 (2024) ips
XPS 13 Plus ( 2024) ips
Slim 7i Carbon (2022) ips
X1 Nano (2021) ips
Asus Zenbook (was an OLED)
S22 Samsung phone (120hz OLED)
S8 Galaxy (OLED)
Dell E2216H (2016)
Dell P2219H monitor (2020)
HP P24h G4 IPS (2020 model)
Also Tried lots of Blue Light glasses, Flux software, etc...no difference.

That said I have never attempted to buy a dedicated monitor to try to rule out possible issues. The ones I've used in the past were just work monitors & laptops.

In general, if I wanted to try eliminating a number of things or just try something new, what would be the best 1st monitor to try buying?

- I have not yet attempted the FRC goose chase, as far as a true 8 bit or 10 bit panel, and all the GPU dithering settings to disable, and disable windows color management dithering, etc.
-Also never had a 240hz monitor (something super high). Nor tried super low like 24hz.
-Also never tried a CCFL backlit flat panel monitor.

Any suggestions which to try 1st?


Thanks

[kyube]

I agree with Chief Blur on the long list of possible issues than just pwm and it's a goose chase.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12808

I have had severe eye strain issues with tons of pwm free laptop ips screens. Old, New, 60hz, 120hz, "low blue light ratings" "eye care" etc... All kill my eyes, headaches, bloodshot vessels after about 45 mins.
Devices to date:
Yoga 2 pro (2013) ips
Thinkbook 13x Gen 5 (2024) ips
XPS 13 Plus ( 2024) ips
Slim 7i Carbon (2022) ips
X1 Nano (2021) ips
Asus Zenbook (was an OLED)
S22 Samsung phone (120hz OLED)
S8 Galaxy (OLED)
2015 Dell Monitor 1080P
HP P24h G4 IPS (2020 model)
Also Tried lots of Blue Light glasses, Flux software, etc...no difference.

That said I have never attempted to buy a dedicated monitor to try to rule out possible issues. The ones I've used in the past were just work monitors & laptops.

In general, if I wanted to try eliminating a number of things or just try something new, what would be the best 1st monitor to try buying?

- I have not yet attempted the FRC goose chase, as far as a true 8 bit or 10 bit panel, and all the GPU dithering settings to disable, and disable windows color management dithering, etc.
-Also never had a 240hz monitor (something super high). Nor tried super low like 24hz.
-Also never tried a CCFL backlit flat panel monitor.

Any suggestions which to try 1st?

Thanks

When you see mobile devices using a OLED display, think of these 2 light flicker sources:
1.) PWM dimming
2.) Display scan-out related flicker (related to internal capacitance), around ~20% brightness drop (measured in cd/m²)
I won't refer to them below

Let's analyse each display you've had and potential problems with them:
Yoga 2 pro (2013) ips
Source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Le ... 620.0.html
Pentile pixel layout, Samsung SDC424A, 276 PPI, standard WLED backlight, no mention of PWM, glossy coating, 60hz


Thinkbook 13x Gen 5 (2024) ips
I cannot find a laptop with this name, only these two:
Source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Th ... 296.0.html
Panel: 14" 243 PPI OLED 60hz
Source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Th ... 954.0.html
Panel: LEN135WQ+ | 13.5" 256ppi 120hz IPS, standard WLED backlight

XPS 13 Plus ( 2024) ips
Source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Dell-XPS- ... 639.0.html
Panel: SHP1593 | 13.5" 169ppi 120hz IPS, standard WLED backlight


Slim 7i Carbon (2022) ips
Source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Yo ... 295.0.html
Panel: MND307DA1-9 | 13" 227ppi 90hz, standard WLED backlight, glossy

X1 Nano (2021) ips
Source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Th ... 858.0.html
Panel: MND007ZA1-2 | 13" 196 PPI 60hz, standard WLED backlight, matte

Asus Zenbook (was an OLED)
General principles of OLED apply

S22 Samsung phone (120hz OLED)
General principles of OLED apply

S8 Galaxy (OLED)
General principles of OLED

2015 Dell Monitor 1080P
Too general to give any specsheet, likely standard WLED

HP P24h G4 IPS (2020 model)
Source: https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/90171f21
Potentially KSF (a type of WCG) WLED backlight, which became common after 2015


Suggestions:
The issue is, all of these LCD display solutions you've tried can be labeled as “flicker-free” or “PWM-free” yet still exhibit light flicker either during a change of color (G2G transition), which would still be below the threshold when a display is considered flicker-free (<10% brightness drop)

You've definitely tried a myriad of displays.
The dithering technique (FRC being one of many types) affecting you is not out of the equation, it can definitely be happening.
I would still rule it out and consider bigger culprits, such as light flicker and/or refresh rate.
I would consider a ≥240hz display, perhaps 1080p for now as they're cheaper and employ the standard WLED backlights which have mostly worked for users.
I would also avoid OLED for now
A few examples: ASUS VG259QM, ASUS VG258QM, Alienware AW2521HF, AOC 24G2ZU / 24G2ZE, ASUS XG249CM, VG249QM1A, ASUS XG259QNS, XG259CMS, Alienware AW2523HF, AOC 25G3ZM, Zowie XL2566X+, Zowie XL2546X, Zowie XL2546X+
You can also take a look at my other posts in this subforum where I've recommended other, higher resolution displays and mobile device solutions as well.

Considering solutions such as disabling Cleartype (switches to Grayscale antialiasing), adjusting Firefox' / Chrome's antialiasing method may also help.

never tried a CCFL backlit flat panel monitor.

You're gonna have a difficult time finding a CCFL-based display, they've been extinct since 2012...

Hope this helps.

[WesternHiker]

Thinkbook 13x Gen 5 (2024) ips
I cannot find a laptop with this name, only these two:
Source: link removed
Panel: 14" 243 PPI OLED 60hz
Source: Link removed
Panel: LEN135WQ+ | 13.5" 256ppi 120hz IPS, standard WLED backlight

Suggestions:
The issue is, all of these LCD display solutions you've tried can be labeled as “flicker-free” or “PWM-free” yet still exhibit light flicker either during a change of color (G2G transition), which would still be below the threshold when a display is considered flicker-free (<10% brightness drop)

You've definitely tried a myriad of displays.
The dithering technique (FRC being one of many types) affecting you is not out of the equation, it can definitely be happening.
I would still rule it out and consider bigger culprits, such as light flicker and/or refresh rate.
I would consider a ≥240hz display, perhaps 1080p for now as they're cheaper and employ the standard WLED backlights which have mostly worked for users.
I would also avoid OLED for now
A few examples: ASUS VG259QM, ASUS VG258QM, Alienware AW2521HF, AOC 24G2ZU / 24G2ZE, ASUS XG249CM, VG249QM1A, ASUS XG259QNS, XG259CMS, Alienware AW2523HF, AOC 25G3ZM, Zowie XL2566X+, Zowie XL2546X, Zowie XL2546X+
You can also take a look at my other posts in this subforum where I've recommended other, higher resolution displays and mobile device solutions as well.

Considering solutions such as disabling Cleartype (switches to Grayscale antialiasing), adjusting Firefox' / Chrome's antialiasing method may also help.

never tried a CCFL backlit flat panel monitor.

You're gonna have a difficult time finding a CCFL-based display, they've been extinct since 2012...

Hope this helps.

Sorry, I meant Thinkbook 13x gen 4, not 5. so it's the latter link you posted to an IPS screen.
13.50 inch 3:2, 2880 x 1920 pixel 256 PPI, LEN135WQ+, IPS, glossy: no, 120 Hz

Thank You! I will go through the list of monitor models you provided and see if I can find one that is also true 8-bit. So then I could test both the 240hz high refresh rate theory plus eliminate the FRC possibility at the same time.

I had not heard about ClearType before, it seems it's supposed to actually help reduce eye strain. But I'll try disabling it since it apparently is doing some funky software sub-pixel rendering around the text.

Also I did get a hold of a 2007 Dell 1908FP. it's CCFL lit and A TN panel (I think). It's low resolution and I have yet to test it because I am waiting for the VGA adapter to arrive.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Giant reminders.

1. Don't forget that your eyestrain may be unrelated to flicker

2. All the OLED's that you listed, I believe, are PWM-based OLEDs. Not all OLEDs (the new 240Hz+ ones) use PWM; only the brief refresh-dip related refresh (5%-20%). Remember, an incandescent lightbulb dims by 5% during the AC zero crossing events.

The problem is a very major datapoint; the difference of mobile AMOLED vs desktop OLED is a bigger ergonomic improvement than the difference of mobile LCD versus desktop LCD. So it's usually gigantic misleading advice to avoid borrowing somebody's desktop OLED (no less than 240Hz, however) to see if it improves. Again, mobile-vs-desktop OLED is bigger ergonomic difference than mobile-vs-desktop LCD and a lot of Internet armchairs like to automatically parrot OLED advice even if it's only a 50% odds that they're right (excellent odds as it may; you're more likely to get eyestrain from OLED than winning a jackpot from a slot machine -- but that doesn't mean OLED does improve things for many people! Caveat emptor on Internet Advice against desktop OLEDs it's easy to be right both ways (improves eyestrain, worsens eyestrain).

Just because you tried 8 freaking smartphones doesn't always means 240Hz+ desktop OLEDs creates eyestrains. While it definitely does for some, there are people who eyestrains on most OLED smartphones but no eyestrain on desktop OLED, because they eliminate the PWM drive and only have the between-refresh slight brightness drop (pixel refresh), which varies depending on screen.

Again, hate to be a broken record but "OLED vs OLED" is bigger than "LCD vs LCD" when it comes to "mobile vs desktop".

YMMV -- it can improve or worsen eyestrain.

Try E-Ink and E-Paper displays too, they are an alternative. There's some desktop computer monitors that behave similar to an Amazon Kindle, and that can help eyestrain for some people. Also, one office worker I know got rid of their eyestrain by switching to 24Hz instead of 60Hz or 240Hz. And there's also the glossy vs matte situation.

And don't forget...

Last year, I got a pair of tinted orange glasses that almost completely stopped the migraines and headaches. The only issue is that they slightly alter the colors, which is not ideal for a designer, but they’ve been a massive relief in my life.

I am still trying different displays and sometimes returning them, hoping to find one that doesn’t strain my eyes. However, so far, tinted glasses are the only thing that has fully worked for me.

That's just simply custom lightly-orange-tinted sunglasses designed for staring at computer monitors. Computer glasses are a cheap thing to try; you can get them on Amazon for under $20, search "Computer Glasses" on Amazon or your favourite online megastore. They are orange-tinted and provide a physical low-blue-light mode that is much more powerful than digital Low Blue Light modes.

Try the cheap fixes first. Viewing distance, brightness, bias lights (a lamp behind your screen), computer glasses, etc.