How many people here are aware of TAA blur?

[yamaci1775]

Since people on this forum are obsessed with the blur LCD screens add, I am curious how many of you are aware that your TAA adds more blur than what persistence does in most cases? I just switched back to SMAA after using TAA for like a week and TAA even at 4K, the TAA blur is blurrier than persistence blur. I am not arguing that persistence blur isn't bad I am just genuinely curious how many of you know that your games actually has even blurrier motion blur than persistence blur unless you are at like 4K or 5K at least.

[Hybred]

Everyone here is aware of that, but only display manufactures read this forum & none of the mods / owners are game devs that can tackle this issue from a professional standpoint either like they can displays, so it's not their area of expertise.

There's many things harming image clarity and we want to solve all of them, this issue included. The best place to go is the subreddit r/MotionClarity if you want to discuss all things clarity & motion related, I don't think blur busters is setup for that.

Maybe Mark can add a section to the site for "Miscellaneous Blur"/clarity meaning its dedicated to anything else that causes these issues, and since it's only one small part it won't detract from anything? That's the only reasonable solution I can think of. But the answer is yes we all notice we all care, those of us that play modern games anyways some people here only play Retro games.

[Hybred]

Update: It turns out this post is just a copypasta of this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/FuckTAA/s/j0Qyj6AYuB

So not sure if it's made in good faith or not due to copy and pasting, but their seems to be overlap with the subjects lately & we should all handle it with respect and care, as most of us hate both issues BUT some users may disagree about which ones worse.

However we shouldnt focus on that, that's not where the conversation should start - we shouldn't be putting the issues against each other & directly comparing them, if you do that it leads to debates and division. So do keep that in mind when replying, none of that matters & it's all subjective.

[Haste]

At the end of the day, it's for chief to decide what to do about it.
There certainly is a potential overlap between communities.

From what I've seen there are many knowledgeable and intelligent people in the r/MotionClarity subreddit that can add valuable contributions to the discussions in this forum. Hybred is a great example of that.
I did check the other subreddit that was mentioned but didn't find the discussions there to have nearly the same quality.



Speaking of blur, motion clarity, ... I think that there is too much complexity in motion portrayal to focus on a single aspect.

Take blur for example. In real life, motion blur does happen when you see (non eye-tracked) motion.
While on a finite-refresh display, relative motions exhibit stroboscopic effects. Essentially you see each frame/refresh trailing as a series of sharp after-images. And this is not how continuous motion looks like to the human-eye.

So that would be an example where "blur" is the goal if you're wishing for natural life-like motion. Which is why there has been discussion here about the potential for using a post process motion blur effects on non-tracked motion. (making use of eye-tracking camera for example in a VR headset)

By this I mean that considering all possible kind of blur as the "enemy" lacks nuance in the first place.

[Hybred]

At the end of the day, it's for chief to decide what to do about it.
There certainly is a potential overlap between communities.

From what I've seen there are many knowledgeable and intelligent people in the r/MotionClarity subreddit that can add valuable contributions to the discussions in this forum. Hybred is a great example of that.
I did check the other subreddit that was mentioned but didn't find the discussions there to have nearly the same quality.



Speaking of blur, motion clarity, ... I think that there is too much complexity in motion portrayal to focus on a single aspect.

Take blur for example. In real life, motion blur does happen when you see (non eye-tracked) motion.
While on a finite-refresh display, relative motions exhibit stroboscopic effects. Essentially you see each frame/refresh trailing as a series of sharp after-images. And this is not how continuous motion looks like to the human-eye.

So that would be an example where "blur" is the goal if you're wishing for natural life-like motion. Which is why there has been discussion here about the potential for using a post process motion blur effects on non-tracked motion. (making use of eye-tracking camera for example in a VR headset)

By this I mean that considering all possible kind of blur as the "enemy" lacks nuance in the first place.

Excellent writeup and is certainly true. Although I don't think people who dislike TAA are against "all forms of blur" as some sort of a ignorant attack. TAA's blur isn't exactly pleasant to look at or natural looking either.

It's a gross unintentional byproduct of temporal accumulation, that should be being solved/mitigated. Unintentional blur tends to look ugly and its better to get a crisp image and add blur to it afterwards so you can control the algorithm, amount, strength, where its applied at, etc. Otherwise it's quite unpleasant and barbaric.

Barley anyone likes TAA blur, they just tolerate it because jaggies are more distracting to them just like almost no one likes persistence blur but they tolerate it because flicker annoys them more. So far it's all about picking your poison and it's all going to depend on your biology and setup.

I think some forms of motion blur look nice but I still dislike how TAA & persistence looks in motion. Especially TAA since that's not its only downside. Its un-uniform, varies from game to game (inconsistent), blurs in stationary too, can cause a vaseline / oil painting like effect on the image, ghosting, removies information & blobs vegetation. There's a ton of trade offs.

But good comment, thanks for the response.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Update: It turns out this post is just a copypasta of this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/FuckTAA/s/j0Qyj6AYuB

Oh wow, that reddit community is popular.

Includes posts containing hundred-upvotes.

Not surprised, though. It's yet another Display Comfort problem.

When stationary -- TAA can look great on a developer's machine and QA-testing machine, and CEO of game company approves of it, then the side effects (motion, etc) from people complaining.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Everyone here is aware of that, but only display manufactures read this forum & none of the mods / owners are game devs that can tackle this issue from a professional standpoint either like they can displays, so it's not their area of expertise.

There's many things harming image clarity and we want to solve all of them, this issue included. The best place to go is the subreddit r/MotionClarity if you want to discuss all things clarity & motion related, I don't think blur busters is setup for that.

Maybe Mark can add a section to the site for "Miscellaneous Blur"/clarity meaning its dedicated to anything else that causes these issues, and since it's only one small part it won't detract from anything? That's the only reasonable solution I can think of. But the answer is yes we all notice we all care, those of us that play modern games anyways some people here only play Retro games.

This could be possible, but what candidate topic would be a big enough umbrella topic...

Or rename this forum to "Display & Graphics Comfort" from "Display Comfort"

To prevent "dead topic areas" and too many topic areas, I now prefer to wait until there's about 500 forum posts about a subtopic before creating a new forum area. This is what happened to Display Comfort; it was a giant-enough rabbit hole to move existing posts to. Niche topics need to be siloed very carefully, or it dies like a dead reddit area.

[Hybred]

Everyone here is aware of that, but only display manufactures read this forum & none of the mods / owners are game devs that can tackle this issue from a professional standpoint either like they can displays, so it's not their area of expertise.

There's many things harming image clarity and we want to solve all of them, this issue included. The best place to go is the subreddit r/MotionClarity if you want to discuss all things clarity & motion related, I don't think blur busters is setup for that.

Maybe Mark can add a section to the site for "Miscellaneous Blur"/clarity meaning its dedicated to anything else that causes these issues, and since it's only one small part it won't detract from anything? That's the only reasonable solution I can think of. But the answer is yes we all notice we all care, those of us that play modern games anyways some people here only play Retro games.

This could be possible, but what candidate topic would be a big enough umbrella topic...

Or rename this forum to "Display & Graphics Comfort" from "Display Comfort"

To prevent "dead topic areas" and too many topic areas, I now prefer to wait until there's about 500 forum posts about a subtopic before creating a new forum area. This is what happened to Display Comfort; it was a giant-enough rabbit hole to move existing posts to. Niche topics need to be siloed very carefully, or it dies like a dead reddit area.

Well I was thinking it would be a forum dedicated specifically to game graphics rather than display, such as forced post-processing effects (chromatic aberration, motion blur, TAA, upscaling) if it did exist that is, so it wouldn't just encompass TAA and users would share workarounds for disabling these things since if it's a singleplayer game it can be modded or there may be ini edits somewhere or a console command.

Also yes that F**TAA subreddit is big, it also gained about 1500 members within the past month due to my promotion of the issue (I studied consumer psychology, so I was able to effectively bring awareness) that's also how r/MotionClarity is already at 600+ members despite only getting posts a few weeks ago. The reason I created it was because I felt like the vulgar name of F***TAA would be offputting to users, developers, etc & wanted a place where all topics can be discussed together.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Well I was thinking it would be a forum dedicated specifically to game graphics rather than display, such as forced post-processing effects (chromatic aberration, motion blur, TAA, upscaling) if it did exist that is, so it wouldn't just encompass TAA and users would share workarounds for disabling these things since if it's a singleplayer game it can be modded or there may be ini edits somewhere or a console command.

Also yes that F**TAA subreddit is big, it also gained about 1500 members within the past month due to my promotion of the issue (I studied consumer psychology, so I was able to effectively bring awareness) that's also how r/MotionClarity is already at 600+ members despite only getting posts a few weeks ago. The reason I created it was because I felt like the vulgar name of F***TAA would be offputting to users, developers, etc & wanted a place where all topics can be discussed together.

I might be willing to make an exception for rising-star topics like this.

Framegen is going to quickly become a big part of Blur Busting in the near future, with DLSS 3.5 behaving like "ULMB for OLEDs" at 4:1+ framegen ratios.

So, a graphics/framegen forum is definitely in the cards. This would be an acceptable umbrella for TAA detritus? It would also be a great place for Reshade talk too!

I see you used to be a Ubisoft developer!

If...
1. You volunteer to occasionally moderate that forum (need a quick vetting)... and
2. You help promote it (a little, even if less than your /r/MotionClarity reddit)...

Then, I'm tempted to "create it already, dammit".

[Hybred]

Well I was thinking it would be a forum dedicated specifically to game graphics rather than display, such as forced post-processing effects (chromatic aberration, motion blur, TAA, upscaling) if it did exist that is, so it wouldn't just encompass TAA and users would share workarounds for disabling these things since if it's a singleplayer game it can be modded or there may be ini edits somewhere or a console command.

Also yes that F**TAA subreddit is big, it also gained about 1500 members within the past month due to my promotion of the issue (I studied consumer psychology, so I was able to effectively bring awareness) that's also how r/MotionClarity is already at 600+ members despite only getting posts a few weeks ago. The reason I created it was because I felt like the vulgar name of F***TAA would be offputting to users, developers, etc & wanted a place where all topics can be discussed together.

I might be willing to make an exception for rising-star topics like this.

Framegen is going to quickly become a big part of Blur Busting in the near future, with DLSS 3.5 behaving like "ULMB for OLEDs" at 4:1+ framegen ratios.

So, a graphics/framegen forum is definitely in the cards. This would be an acceptable umbrella for TAA detritus? It would also be a great place for Reshade talk too!

I see you used to be a Ubisoft developer!

If...
1. You volunteer to occasionally moderate that forum (need a quick vetting)... and
2. You help promote it (a little, even if less than your /r/MotionClarity reddit)...

Then, I'm tempted to "create it already, dammit".

Well if the section is about "game graphics" both frame gen and those other topics would all be under that umbrella.

I do believe Blur Busters will evolve beyond combating blur via displays eventually due to Async Reprojection the question is just timing.

Do you want the forum created BEFORE those things take off or as soon as it does? That's really where the question lies at for me at least, what comes first the chicken or the egg?

The biggest benefit of creating it before is bringing awareness & potentially helping users out by sharing user end tips with each other, so that's up to you. I just suggested it as I have personally recieved questions from users who were confused about why Blur Busters doesn't tackle other things that effect motion clarity so I offered an explanation then a potential compromise/solution.