[Unproductive Discussion Split Off From Original 8000 Hz Mouse Thread]

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lyrill
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[Unproductive Discussion Split Off From Original 8000 Hz Mouse Thread]

Post by lyrill » 05 Nov 2020, 22:19

Moderation Note wrote:Split From Original Thread
Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse thread.
The unproductive posts were moved to this thread.



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empleat wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 11:02
[...]
not sure what's the point of a bunch of sarcasm and emote spam, but kinda stopped caring to ask if you even read the thread when you said "use low dpi"

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lyrill
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Offtopic Angles [Split from 8000 Hz prototype]

Post by lyrill » 06 Nov 2020, 17:58

empleat wrote:
06 Nov 2020, 14:52
not sure what's the point of a bunch of sarcasm and emote spam, but kinda stopped caring to ask if you even read the thread when you said "use low dpi"
I wasn't...

Lol are you familiar, that pros use like 400-800 dpi? For precision, it is much better than high DPI! As there is only limited amount of pixels per inch, than mouse captures movements, using sub pixels, which is less precise! Pros move their hands quite quickly. It is not likely, that you wouldn't max polling rate. Also mouse events, which occur after each other will be captured faster ^^
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:20

Yes, Some Games Will Work Better at Lower Poll Hz
True, some games work better at 8KHz than others. For example, Valorant works so much better than CS:GO at high pollrate + high DPI. The 8000Hz mouse appears to have no smoothing at 3200dpi in Valorant, which means for high-DPI-supported games, 8000Hz 3200dpi 0.08 sensitivity versus 400dpi 0.64 sensitivity now feels identical at fast aimtrack speeds, but feels much better for slow aimtrack speeds. Unlike older games that are apparently high DPI unfrendly such as CS:GO. There's a lot of Pandora Boxes to open with 1000Hz / 2000Hz / 4000Hz / 8000Hz
Yeah problem is there are a lot of bottlenecks around way to the monitor, each system out of sync: usb controller polling, DPC latency, timer resolution. So if you play some game, which has hardcoded high input lag, it won't feel good. Because you have one part with super low input lag and than than other, which is laggy. So it feels inconsistent.

Valorant is using Nvidia Reflex so it is optimal game for it. I wonder if 8k will be even big deal in other than competitive games and on lower hz than 360. It is mouse aimed at competitive gaming after all!

I wonder why do you test 0.64 sensitivity. You should never change sensitivity in game, if you don't want pixel skipping. I guess it was just for a reference. Whatever else than 1.00 feels absolutely terrible!!!

Btw did you heard about prioritizing interrupts for a system timer? I gave it a try and now mouse feels more consistent and round (circular movements feel better!) on a 500hz, 0.5ms timer - which is inconsistent. As sometimes you miss resolution timer window and have to wait another 499us max. I was using 1ms in past, because it feels more consistent on 500hz and i should start again honestly :D Otherwise, i am not sure, if 8k will be even that good. Because already at 1000hz, it captures even smallest movements and precision suffers.

Tho you can always try lower your sensitivity. And it doesn't feel good, when there are other latencies. On 360hz, with Nvidia Reflex. It might be a entirely different matter.
honestly why are you just now coming to this thread to diss high hz ? like you do realize what thread you are in? it's not the 100000000001th "400/800 dpi masterrace" thread of the month since eon ago. you know what don't bother, i got better things to do than argue with every idiot on the internet chanting "BUT PROS DO THIS DO THAT I AM TOTALLY MAJOR CHAMP CUS I ADHERE TO THEIR ARBITRARY BS" , but knock yourself out

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 06 Nov 2020, 18:01

CortexFPS wrote:
06 Nov 2020, 17:26
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Nov 2020, 16:37
lyrill wrote:
02 Nov 2020, 10:49
also woah 15 years since 1khz. about damn time to upgrade.
Yep, for 360Hz monitors, you need at least 2000 Hz poll rate to improve the ability to tell the difference between 240Hz vs 360Hz.

Fortunately going past 1000Hz means 8000Hz is a freebie feature due to USB2 protocol. You can select 125Hz, 500Hz, 1000Hz, 2000Hz, 4000Hz and 8000Hz.
boss, so do you think 8000hz will be a software update for those who currently own a razer mouse? or will we have to buy a new hypothetical 8000 hz razer mouse?
read the thread dude.

empleat
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by empleat » 07 Nov 2020, 15:50

lyrill wrote:
06 Nov 2020, 18:01
honestly why are you just now coming to this thread to diss high hz ? like you do realize what thread you are in? it's not the 100000000001th "400/800 dpi masterrace" thread of the month since eon ago. you know what don't bother, i got better things to do than argue with every idiot on the internet chanting "BUT PROS DO THIS DO THAT I AM TOTALLY MAJOR CHAMP CUS I ADHERE TO THEIR ARBITRARY BS" , but knock yourself out
Besides you can use anything really, but why do you think so many of pros use less than 800 sens? Because it is better. Why would this be 400/800 dpi masterrace thread? I was discussing dpi on 8k mouse. You are clueless. Than don't respond :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I don't even know what you are talking about, you are triggered over something, which is completely not true...

You realize for instance, that mice have limited amount of pixels per inch, if you increase dpi like above 800 (differs per mouse), subpixels are used instead which have less precision. Google François Morier from logitech, maybe you will learn how a mouse works :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc7JVjcPzL0
lyrill wrote:
Lol this thread is about 8k razer mouse... He even ask about things to test with it. I talking about same subject. You delusional and so salty lol :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Nov 2020, 20:44

CortexFPS wrote:
06 Nov 2020, 17:26
boss, so do you think 8000hz will be a software update for those who currently own a razer mouse? or will we have to buy a new hypothetical 8000 hz razer mouse?
Fair question, though I answered it already -- the answer is no; You will need to purchase an 8000 Hz mouse such as the AtomPalm or Razer or other. There is also a 2000 Hz Cougar Mios X5 mouse.

We aim to popularize high poll rates, but the mouse being tested at Blur Busters will simply be a Razer because they are the first vendor who willingly sent a >2000Hz mouse to Blur Busters, other vendors are welcome to send their high-Hz mouse if they want an inclusion in future mouse tests.
lyrill wrote:
06 Nov 2020, 17:58
honestly why are you just now coming to this thread to diss high hz ? like you do realize what thread you are in? it's not the 100000000001th "400/800 dpi masterrace" thread of the month since eon ago. you know what don't bother, i got better things to do than argue with every idiot on the internet chanting "BUT PROS DO THIS DO THAT I AM TOTALLY MAJOR CHAMP CUS I ADHERE TO THEIR ARBITRARY BS" , but knock yourself out
empleat wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 15:50
Lol this thread is about 8k razer mouse... He even ask about things to test with it. I talking about same subject. You delusional and so salty lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
*** Moderator Reminder ***

Please cease this un-niceness, and re-read the Blur Busters #1 "Be Nice" Forum rule. Disagree cordially, please.

(Just only seeing this now. Been so busy with other things, including an emergency relating to a family member, which means I read even fewer threads daily)
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 09 Nov 2020, 00:46

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 20:44
*** Moderator Reminder ***

Please cease this un-niceness, and re-read the Blur Busters #1 "Be Nice" Forum rule. Disagree cordially, please.

(Just only seeing this now. Been so busy with other things, including an emergency relating to a family member, which means I read even fewer threads daily)
he was asking about Razer specific, which theFiend answered earlier. But fair point about the other stuff.

I adjusted my manners as seen below, whatever needs to be said will be heard by those who will listen, but forgive me for having no patience with the regular naysayers---who will never let it go because they came to rile things up to begin with--by introducing bad manners first, therefore as the red highlight, I merely told him to keep at it as he wishes because it's all completely his will, since I am not the mod, and he did ensue with more, shrugs.
Last edited by lyrill on 09 Nov 2020, 01:33, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 09 Nov 2020, 00:55

empleat wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 15:50
lyrill wrote:
06 Nov 2020, 18:01
honestly why are you just now coming to this thread to diss high hz ? like you do realize what thread you are in? it's not the 100000000001th "400/800 dpi masterrace" thread of the month since eon ago. you know what don't bother, i got better things to do than argue with every idiot on the internet chanting "BUT PROS DO THIS DO THAT I AM TOTALLY MAJOR CHAMP CUS I ADHERE TO THEIR ARBITRARY BS" , but knock yourself out
Besides you can use anything really, but why do you think so many of pros use less than 800 sens? Because it is better. Why would this be 400/800 dpi masterrace thread? I was discussing dpi on 8k mouse. You are clueless. Than don't respond :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I don't even know what you are talking about, you are triggered over something, which is completely not true...

You realize for instance, that mice have limited amount of pixels per inch, if you increase dpi like above 800 (differs per mouse), subpixels are used instead which have less precision. Google François Morier from logitech, maybe you will learn how a mouse works :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc7JVjcPzL0
lyrill wrote:
Lol this thread is about 8k razer mouse... He even ask about things to test with it. I talking about same subject. You delusional and so salty lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
First and foremost, I have never seen anyone claim or deny otherwise, that mouse sensor with higher native cpi doesn't translate to a higher resolution (when using higher cpi on such a sensor, or when using same cpi vs a lower native cpi sensor). THERE IS NO SUBPIXELING. YOU ARE USING HIGHER CPI. IT'S NOT BOOSTED CPI, IT'S NATIVE CPI.

what you refer to as ppi is for apple/mobile displays, which I already highlighted as a key lacking point for pcmr earlier in this thread. But that's all for display relevancy. However it does play into the need for high cpi on mouse. We are talking monitor hz in this thread also, because mouse have hz too. DUH. I will have to highlight again why in the similar logic, that higher mouse cpi, or ppi if you insist, matter in accordance with pc monitor high ppi, which although is more than enough common sense whenever people justify high dpi, I am the only person that vocally still care about it in this year, ESPECIALLY in terms of subpixel for none esport ready games like pubg BECAUSE GAMERS AND GAME DEVS NEED TO EVOLVE, NOT BECAUSE THOSE GAMES ARE INNATELY A MISTAKE/BAD JOKE, which you should again read through this thread that talked about game futureproofing and current needed optimizations--they should, there is no room for complacency---(it was talked about near decade ago because iphone 4 was 1 decade ago) , or maybe you can tell Steve Jobs that promoting retina screen was a bad joke too---because even without anywhere close to any competitive mobile gaming scene back then, it was still saw fit to have ultra clarity on little phones. THAT is how far 400dpi/800dpi swearby "pc gamers" are thinking behind the curve, it's a real disgrace really, a collective hivemind that gladly accepts normalcy by lying to themselves and others adamantly that it's actually superior.

for mouse the relevant TERM is cpi/dpi, which is at least raw 16k on nearly all brands's main line models by this year (333X, 336X, HERO16K, 3389/90/99, TMPRO, OWLEYE GEN II(16K), ETCETC) . and most of them have no/very little smoothing within usable fps gaming range (sub 5k), which is exactly my point REPEATED FOR A YEAR that 5k is the new standard, which was pushed by truemovepro IN 2019 to have absolutely NO smoothing AND minimum jitter AND world's highest circular accuracy/overall perf, as tested by techpowerup and gwtest.

techpowerup link 4950 cpi no smoothing: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/stee ... ten/5.html

gwtest 93.02 score highest in world (3399 on dav2: 90.57, hero16k on gpw : 90.98) https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv8227146 https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv7157702 https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv7072202

gwtest also famously tested 25k (firmware or software update, nobody knows/cares for sure) to have lower score than 16k with the same sensor. While these "3rd party" testers are not without faults and bias and are up for scrutiny and validity of their "test results", next to nobody takes Logitech tech seriously in year 0202 with all their excessive slumber and lack of moving forward, THEY ARE STILL SELLING G502/G402/GPW WITH THE SAME SALES PRICE AS 1-4 years ago with no updated new product available to any of the lines!!! WHILE RAZER IS PROVIDING STEEP DISCOUNTS TO EVERYTHING, and other brands are marking new releases of this season very competitively compared to last year. so I am not going to respond to your linking some random Logitech tidbit.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by empleat » 09 Nov 2020, 12:01

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 20:44
*** Moderator Reminder ***

Please cease this un-niceness, and re-read the Blur Busters #1 "Be Nice" Forum rule. Disagree cordially, please.

(Just only seeing this now. Been so busy with other things, including an emergency relating to a family member, which means I read even fewer threads daily)
If he shittalks me, what am suppose to do. Let him shit on my head? I wasn't posting anything un-nice, until this person attacked me... You have to defend yourself... Btw it is not even anything un-nice, it is the truth, he was saying pros use BS. Yet he didn't know single thing about mice so... It was just some asshole complaining...

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 09 Nov 2020, 17:00

empleat wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 12:01
If he shittalks me, what am suppose to do. Let him shit on my head? I wasn't posting anything un-nice, until this person attacked me... You have to defend yourself... Btw it is not even anything un-nice, it is the truth, he was saying pros use BS. Yet he didn't know single thing about mice so... It was just some asshole complaining...
Unlike in game matches or on social media, retaliatory responses is not allowed in these forums.. Moderators will give temp ban if this happens again (you just did it again; see red highlighted words).

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 09 Nov 2020, 17:13

lyrill wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 00:55
THERE IS NO SUBPIXELING. YOU ARE USING HIGHER CPI. IT'S NOT BOOSTED CPI, IT'S NATIVE CPI.
lyrill wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 00:55
BECAUSE GAMERS AND GAME DEVS NEED TO EVOLVE, NOT BECAUSE THOSE GAMES ARE INNATELY A MISTAKE/BAD JOKE
Please cease these all-caps, it only raises the temperatures around here. Although I notice you’re watching your words, the tone is still a bit aggressive to some users. If you really feel you have have to highlight some things, regular typing + bold (non-colored) is preferred around here.
lyrill wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 00:55
THAT is how far 400dpi/800dpi swearby "pc gamers" are thinking behind the curve, it's a real disgrace really, a collective hivemind that gladly accepts normalcy by lying to themselves and others adamantly that it's actually superior.
Don’t forget the game. Legacy games have some imprecise mouse processing for high-DPI. For example, some found there is some strange issues going on with CS:GO 3200dpi but not in Valorant 3200dpi.

Valorant is high-DPI friendly but some older games do more imprecise mouse mathematics during high-DPI operation. Some more research is needed, but it is one of the many causes of staying with familiarity (400dpi or 800dpi)

The matter of the fact is we respect gamers who need to stay at 400dpi or 800dpi, even if the reasons are somewhat legacy. I ask everyone in this thread to respect the nuances of the complex situation.

I started a new thread that will unlock full DPI while allowing gamers to stay 400 “dpi”/800 “dpi”:
Proposed High Definition Mouse Extensions API
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