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Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.

Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby RealNC » 02 May 2018, 02:11

MICk42 wrote:Hmm. So you would rather recommend leaving the G-sync off with just ULMB on, using the lowest refresh rate possible, and trying to V-sync the framerate to that refresh rate?

It depends, I guess. If you can keep a stable frame rate, it's fine. As soon as the game stalls for whatever reason, you get black frames. I don't use that mode myself. I tried it a couple times, but it seems only useful for games with a rock-stable frame rate and also rock-stable frame pacing. If you play a game that has both of these qualities, then it should work fine for you, at pretty much any frame rate.

One thing to note is that 60Hz strobing on an LCD has much more apparent flicker than 60Hz on a CRT. "Apparent" means that it feels worse, even though it's the same frequency (60Hz.) CRT flicker feels "soft" in comparison and not as offensive to the eyes. 85Hz strobing on an LCD feels about the same as a 60Hz CRT.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby 3dfan » 07 May 2018, 08:45

RealNC wrote:One thing to note is that 60Hz strobing on an LCD has much more apparent flicker than 60Hz on a CRT. "Apparent" means that it feels worse, even though it's the same frequency (60Hz.) CRT flicker feels "soft" in comparison and not as offensive to the eyes. 85Hz strobing on an LCD feels about the same as a 60Hz CRT.


as much as i apreciate yours and others info on this topic over this forums, i feel confused about what is being said about 60hz strobed flickering on modern monitors vs crt 60hz flicker, , it seems you and many base your statements on just rememberings as you said in the following forum

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3501
RealNC wrote:I also couldn't stand 60Hz flicker on CRT, but I don't remember it being that annoying even on 60Hz CRT TVs. There's definitely a difference between CRT and LCD strobing, even at the same screen size. Even though it's the same flicker frequency, LCD strobing seems way more disturbing compared to phosphor.


what causes confusion is that people that could not stand 60hz on crt like you seem to claim it being worse on lcd strobed 60hz than those that now use strobed 60hz lcd abd seemed not to had issues with 60hz crt:

Falkentyne wrote:I've been using 60hz single strobe all day on my XL2720Z. Playing Dark Souls (masterotaku is mad at me for not finishing the game yet on steam). I have absolutely no problem with 60hz single strobe, even on the desktop. But I would lose that if I bought a gsync monitor. Well until now it seems...


but it doesnt seem somebody have done this comparision side by side with actual lcd and crt monitors.

it would be ideal if someone could compare a crt at 60hz with a strobed 60hz lcd side by side to have a more accurate idea of this. (wish i had access to a strobed 60hz lcd to compare with my crt and report, but those monitors does not exist where i live)
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby RealNC » 07 May 2018, 09:14

A couple months ago I watched TV on an old ~35" 50Hz PAL CRT. It was watchable. Not great, but watchable. Way better than 60Hz on my 27" LCD.

And most of us grew up on 50Hz or 60Hz CRT TVs, and playing Nintendo on them.

If you think about how a CRT works, it kind of makes sense that it doesn't seem as bad LCD strobing. On a CRT, the screen is almost never fully black. Some area of it is illuminated for the vast majority of the time, as the scanline moves from top to bottom. On an LCD, there's nothing moving from top to bottom. The whole thing lights up, then goes dark.

Here's an excellent capture of a CRT scanline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM&t=139

Compare that to LCD strobing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD5gjAs1A2s&t=44

You get a headache almost immediately by looking at that video :P

A CRT electron scanline that makes phosphor glow really looks different compared to a strobe light, even if the frequency is the same.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby 3dfan » 10 May 2018, 07:05

interesting videos, thanks for sharing, the crt slow motion one seems to have softer transition indeed.

but well....chef blur busters states in his 60 Hz ULMB Hack HOWTO https://www.blurbusters.com/60hz-ulmb-hack-howto that 60 Hz ULMB (strobed) will flicker like a 60 Hz CRT, and you state that 60hz strobed will flicker even worse than a 50hz crt :shock:

"Who you gonna trust?" :D..just kidding.....but seriously on the topic, i think its quite confusing. especially coming from site key people such the forum owner and a moderator.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 10 May 2018, 12:45

3dfan wrote:but well....chef blur busters states in his 60 Hz ULMB Hack HOWTO https://www.blurbusters.com/60hz-ulmb-hack-howto that 60 Hz ULMB (strobed) will flicker like a 60 Hz CRT, and you state that 60hz strobed will flicker even worse than a 50hz crt :shock:

Both are right.

The problem is in the variables.
- LCD today is bigger than CRT yesterday. Meaning flicker amplified
- LCD today is brighter than CRT yesterday. Meaning flicker amplified
- LCD flash all at once versus CRT scan top-to-bottom. Meaning flicker amplified
- Room lighting
- Bright content versus dim content
- Viewing distances
- Etc.

You can control some of the variables. 60Hz strobing can be made tolerable with many adjustments. It's painful with bright browser windows but perfectly fine to my eyes for certain kinds of emulator games, brightness adjusted, viewing distance adjusted, etc.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby orange808 » 14 May 2018, 18:44

Interlaced content on your old consumer tv will also soften the appearance of strobing.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby MICk42 » 15 May 2018, 00:21

OK, so I returned the BenQ Zowie monitor and bought a Dell S2716DG. But I must have overlooked a critical feature - the ULMB can be activated ONLY on nVidia graphics cards???
I have an AMD Radeon graphics adapter and the ULMB is greyed out in the monitor menu (I tried all the refresh rates, including the officially supported 85, 100 and 120 Hz).
What a bummer! Is there anything I can do about this?
Also, the overall response of this display seems to be much WORSE than that of the previous BenQ monitor. I don't know whether enabling ULMB would improve things much, but it doesn't seem likely. Currently I've got severe ghosting and blur on any refresh rate. I'm inclined to return the display immediately, but... what else could I try?
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 15 May 2018, 14:43

orange808 wrote:Interlaced content on your old consumer tv will also soften the appearance of strobing.

That's true too -- to an extent.

Albiet, I've found that more of the effect is from the top-to-bottom scan -- something is almost always illuminated somewhere on the screen surface -- rather than flashed-all-at-once like a strobe backlight.

MICk42 wrote:OK, so I returned the BenQ Zowie monitor and bought a Dell S2716DG. But I must have overlooked a critical feature - the ULMB can be activated ONLY on nVidia graphics cards???
I have an AMD Radeon graphics adapter and the ULMB is greyed out in the monitor menu (I tried all the refresh rates, including the officially supported 85, 100 and 120 Hz).
What a bummer! Is there anything I can do about this?

Purchase an NVIDIA card.
There's no way to enable ULMB on an AMD product, unfortunately.
It requires a special DRM handshake with an NVIDIA graphics card before it lets itself activate.

ToastyX discovered a way to crack the LightBoost handshake, so it was possible to enable LightBoost on certain monitors using an AMD card. But nobody has ever done the same to ULMB, they have probably made it much stronger DRM.

MICk42 wrote:Also, the overall response of this display seems to be much WORSE than that of the previous BenQ monitor. I don't know whether enabling ULMB would improve things much, but it doesn't seem likely. Currently I've got severe ghosting and blur on any refresh rate. I'm inclined to return the display immediately, but... what else could I try?

ULMB is pretty good, and 60Hz ULMB does look good on a 240Hz GSYNC monitor, but if you're looking for an AMD compatible solution of successful 60Hz single-strobe that doesn't use software-based BFI -- your only choice are the BenQ/Zowie monitors.

Or getting an HDTV that single-strobes at 60Hz (RTINGS.com television reviews includes a checkbox whether that particular HDTV can single-strobe at 60Hz).
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 15 May 2018, 14:48

RealNC wrote:Here's an excellent capture of a CRT scanline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM&t=139

Compare that to LCD strobing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD5gjAs1A2s&t=44

A more fair apples-versus-apples comparison (same high speed camera framerates, 480fps and 1000fps) is this one:

phpBB [video]


As you can see -- it is still headachey -- just not as much, because something is almost always illuminated somewhere on the screen.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby MICk42 » 16 May 2018, 00:20

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
MICk42 wrote:OK, so I returned the BenQ Zowie monitor and bought a Dell S2716DG. But I must have overlooked a critical feature - the ULMB can be activated ONLY on nVidia graphics cards???
I have an AMD Radeon graphics adapter and the ULMB is greyed out in the monitor menu (I tried all the refresh rates, including the officially supported 85, 100 and 120 Hz).
What a bummer! Is there anything I can do about this?

Purchase an NVIDIA card.
There's no way to enable ULMB on an AMD product, unfortunately.
It requires a special DRM handshake with an NVIDIA graphics card before it lets itself activate.


That's what I was afraid of.
I was hoping that since ULMB requires (officially) G-sync turned off, it would not be manufacturer-dependant.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
MICk42 wrote:Also, the overall response of this display seems to be much WORSE than that of the previous BenQ monitor. I don't know whether enabling ULMB would improve things much, but it doesn't seem likely. Currently I've got severe ghosting and blur on any refresh rate. I'm inclined to return the display immediately, but... what else could I try?

ULMB is pretty good, and 60Hz ULMB does look good on a 240Hz GSYNC monitor, but if you're looking for an AMD compatible solution of successful 60Hz single-strobe that doesn't use software-based BFI -- your only choice are the BenQ/Zowie monitors.


But that means just the older ones, which don't have the forced double-strobe on lower refresh rates, right?
Is there ANY 27" QHD BenQ/Zowie monitor that can single strobe on 60 Hz? (or, at least, I mean at most, 85?)

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Or getting an HDTV that single-strobes at 60Hz (RTINGS.com television reviews includes a checkbox whether that particular HDTV can single-strobe at 60Hz).

Also interesting, I need to buy a new TV anyway... perhaps I might look into that.
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